Having only played SR4 a couple of times (I played SR3 quite a bit a few years back), I am not quite sure if narrow or wide bursts are better.

My current thinking is that I should usually be doing wide bursts... since it is far better to hit for a lower DR than to miss with a higher one... especially considering that the Dodge test can result in a clean miss. However, going this route will likely mean an extra attack is required (note that we are playing 350pt "gangers", and were restricted to Availability 8 equipment... we are a bit less "uber" than the average starting Shadowrunner).


I haven't crunched the math, but my gut feeling is that you go wide burst for the first attack... dealing damage to the target, and then go narrow burst to finish him.

What do you all think?

Thanks!

Depends what you're shooting at, how good you are, and what you're firing with. If you've got the dice to hit with or without bursting, always use Narrow. Otherwise, use wide. However, if you're using long bursts or full auto, you may want to use narrow more often because you can't take someone's defense pool below 0, ie, if you're shooting at an APC with 3 dice to dodge, firing a Wide Full Burst is a waste.

Completely understood. At this point, I haven't really pondered the use of long bursts (or full auto), primarily since both of these have pretty significant recoil... note that my current character fires his assault rifle with 13 dice, I believe... (lesse, Agility 5, Automatics 4 (Assault Rifles +2), Smart Link... yup, 13 dic e). Long Bursts still have more appeal to me, being that they are still simple actions (and if I want to be clever, I can still use a free action to switch to SA mode)... but the -5 dice pool modifier is pretty hefty when you are only expecting 4 successes, on average... Now, if you have 5 points of RC, maybe... for one shot... then it gets bad on the second.


I don't know... but let's assume I am talking about targets that have a reaction of 4, and are not going full defence. For sure, I would go wide bursts if they went to full defence (at least on the second shot of the pass, since I wouldn't necessarily know on the first!)
b

First, try to get what recoil compensation you can. Check Arsenal's "Weapon Modification" rules for information on what does and doesn't stack. An Ares Alpha with Gas-Vent 3 and a shock pad is a good start and not overly expensive. If you have, or know someone with, the skills to modify weapons, Underbarrel Weight and Personalized Grip are nice.

13 dice against 4, with no RC, let's look at your options:

Single/single, you roll 13 on 4, then 12 on 3, for base DV.
Single/short, you roll 13 on 4, then 10 on 3, for DV then DV+2 (note that this is just better than short/single)
Short/short, you roll 11 on 4, then 8 on 3, for DV+2 both times.
Short/Long, you roll 11 on 4, then 5 on 3, for DV+2 then DV+5.
Single/Long you roll 13 on 4, then 7 on 3, for DV then DV+5.

However, you can also call shots for extra DV, if you have a free action to spare. I would probably be going for single/long, calling a shot for +4 DV on the first shot, or for short/short if I don't have a free action. That leaves you rolling at least twice as many dice on both shots, and doing DV+4 and DV+5. Things do change if they go full defense - but at the same time, the extra DV makes them more likely to do so. If they go full defense on the first shot, maybe you go for a wide burst or something on the second. If they do it on the second, they lose their next action and you already (hopefully) hit them once.

Another note is that if you only have a small dice pool advantage, you want to switch to using Long Wide bursts. For example, if they have 9 dice to dodge (high reaction) and you have 12 dice to hit, a Long Burst brings them down to 4 dice and you down to 7 dice, so even though you still only get 1 more hit on average, the odds of you hitting are better because your dicepool is proportionally larger.

Things also get funny when you're fighting Spirits. Extra DV from called shots and from net hits does count to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons, but extra DV from bursts does not. So you want to be calling shots, and then making wide bursts with any RC you have.

It's situational.

If the opponent appears to be able to jump around and avoid damage really well, and you're worried about hitting the guy at all, use wide burst.

If the opponent appears to be easier to hit but has a large amount of damage resistance, use narrow burst.

If the opponent has high avoidance AND resistance, well, you're screwed.



-karma

Don't forget that (as Umaro mentioned) wide bursts get you net hits, which *do* count toward beating things like armor threshold; stupidly, a wide burst might do physical damage or hurt a vehicle where an identical narrow burst would do stun/no damage. :/

It isn't necessarily that stupid. A narrow burst, all the bullets could hit the vest, while a wide burst you're more likely to have one of them hit him in an unprotected spot.

No hit locations; use a called shot.

And for a vehicle? Given that the point of narrow is high damage/low accuracy, the point of wide is scoring a hit/low damage, a wide burst should *not* be better at penetrating personal armor and vehicle armor.

I need to drop this guy now! I shoot him in the eye with a wide burst!

A good rule of thumb when playing with my human Street Sam, If it is bigger then me Narrow Burst, if it is smaller then me Wide Burst.... Has yet to fail...

Firing a short Burst is Simple Action.
AK-97 w/Smartlink,Gas-vent 3,Shock pad and personalized grip.
2x Short Narrow Burst in same target,and u are looking a rapidly cooling corpse..

Unless their armor is better, in which case narrow bursts simply do extra stun; or unless you're shooting at a vehicle, in which case the narrow may do literally nothing. :/

Narrow is better on weak biological targets who aren't dodging. Of course, such targets are dead already…

Yeah, I was shooting with nothing but full wide bursts from a machine gun last game because I found that it meant more hits and I have to spend a complex action to AR-shoot as a rigger anyhow, so why not?

Then I promptly forgot what I was doing and posted my earlier reply.




-karma

Perhaps this is overly obvious but there is no 'correct' answer.

Narrow bursts are better for targets that are better at soaking than dodging.

Wide bursts are better for targets that are better at dodging than soaking.

As a GM I usually have my NPCs go with Wide Burts because I want the PCs to definitely take SOME damage but not to take a lot of damage. With narrow it seems like the target either takes a lot or takes none...neither extreme is what I want for my PCs.

Well, thanks, all.

Kind of what I figured.

UmaroVI, interesting break-down. I guess I may need to look a little bit at called shots. Of course, since our characters are gangers, and not 'runners, maybe just going with the long bursts will make more "RP" sense... after all, gangers are more likely to be going "rock and roll" for the shock, rather than good tactical sense.

Btw, I wouldn't allow a Called Shot on a Wide Burst.