First off a big hello to you all out there, this is my first post to these fine forums and I hope it might actually contribute something, or at least sow the seeds of an idea amongst other players. At the least I might get a good discussion out of it. Now, onto the meat of the post!

I've been ghosting these forums for a while, and I'll be the first to admit that I've spent more than my fair share of time looking at peoples characters ideas and first time Game Masters issues. And through all of these threads, where Initiative Passes have been touted (And not incorrectly) as the one way to make the most out of your character, I have ever only ever seen people arguing for Wired Reflexes, or their bioware/adept counterpart. However not once have I seen a mention of the application of Combat drugs, and while the effects are temporary, they can also provide a much needed boost against tougher opponents than these less mundane options might.

Now I'm not going to pretend I'm not bias, because I most certainly am. As a player, I have a tendency to romanticize the less cybered or magical characters. I mean the only cyberware my character packs is Muscle Replacement (2), and I can mix it up with the best of any street sam or adept I've come across, and with my combat ax I usually come out on top and dealing damage that makes others either weep or drool. (Providing I don't shank any rolls Haha) And here's why. I use drugs! But what about the crash you say? The horrible stun damage that leaves me passed out in between a rock and a hard place. Well granted, that can be a problem, but is 6stun really all that much? Besides take Jazz for example, it's crash is only 10 minutes game time of -2 to tests. Not a bad price to pay for 10-60 minutes of +1 initiative, and +1 initiative passes. Then you have my personal ace in the hole. Kamikaze. Let's face it, almost everyone going's to get into a position every now and then when you need an equalizer, and just one initiative pass isn't enough. Can you afford to turn down it's +1 Body, agility, Willpower, Initiative Pass, +2 strength and High Pain Tolerance three when you're just about to go toe to toe with a Red Samurai or two and they don't plan to let you stand there and shoot them?

Get screwed over by a Johnson and you're in a situation that you don't expect to come out alive? Well if you want any chance to get out, or you at least want to take as many of those fraggers out with you as you can, try a little K10. Sure the crash is crazy and will probably kill you if the combat doesn't but there are ways to offset that too. Try cocktailing it with a little Immortal Flower. Nothing puts the laughter back into slaughter like +3 Body, +3 Agility, +6 Strength, +1 Willpower,+3 Initiative Pass, High Pain Tolerance 3, and Berserk topped off with a little Regeneration.

Now don't get me wrong, this isn't for everyone, but it just feels to me like no one really gives combat drugs serious consideration as an alternative to a heavily wared or wizzed char. Not everyone can can get the ware or spell/power. Any one can take a hit.

GMs tend to ask for addiction tests very fast, even more, when you speedball. depends ofc how many runs you do
my Edge7-Face likes to be where the action is, but was far two slow to participate, so he took some Jazz once in a while. Now he could afford a synaptic booster and he's very happy.

i like cram/jazz for some gangers to make them an unexpected threat

That's true, but depending on whether or not your GM considers it a physical or mental addiction test can make a big difference. With a body of 7 (Ork) I'm not all that worried about physical addiction, and even then it also really depends upon the level of addiction he sets you at. Mild and Moderate aren't exactly going to make or break a character. And I don't see anyone assigning you a Serious addiction without prior warning or abuse of a very addictive substance.

Of course, this is not an everyday solution or a real replacement for ware, but it can help sometimes. I try to get some chemical backup for most of my characters -Cram &/or Jazz mostly, sometimes K- (even the ones that are already boosted a bit), but I try not to use it if possible (unless the character is an adict to begin with, of course). It´s good when you are really in a bad situation.

Most of the time, I GM, however. Most of my players are very reluctant, because they fear addiction - I think I tend to be very soft with that, but players seem to perceive or fear otherwise. Very few use the stuff at all, fewer still on a regular basis, almost noone wants to build adicts.

For NPCs, I often use it for gangers and low-life thugs (maybe 20-30% of the time), which for some reason still tends to surprise my players. I also use it for low-level security ppl occasionaly (they have a low probability of ever having to take it, but it may save their life when they are the unlucky ones to face some runners).

But, you know: Drugs are bad, mmmmkay!

There are three turn-offs to drugs, I think;

- Addiction; it causes Notoriety, it's annoying and it seems to happen way too fast for drugs to be attractive.
- Reliability; implants are more reliable than drugs. You don't have to worry about being attacked while crashing, or running out.
- Non-stacking; you can usually afford implants, and they don't stack with the drugs, so why take the drugs? Particularly in the case of the all-important IP boost.

HOLY... i just read the part of "K-10 AND Immortal Flower"... Hm.. of course not really viable for most characters... but if you really go the no cyberware route it is really good. Just make sure you have qualities for more overflow boxes and good will/body in general and you are good to go. Oh and also money... since both drugs really are not cheap. But yeah... it makes a normal troll down on his luck to a "Drop and forget" murdering tool.

Well, like i wrote in some other thread here, i am against fixed, unavoidable damage out of principle. K-10 should have a damage code like everything else too.

Well, back on topic: I have nothing against drugs and use them extensively as a GM for my NPC's. Streetfighters trying to cheat in the next round, beat cops finding themselves in a shootout. Corporate security ordered to "hold out till the HTR arrives", an "average" mage trying to get his mind sharp for that big spirit summoning etc. all use drugs.

HM, only my players don't seem to use them. (I even had one of them gain a drug-dealer contact... but he only uses him for party drugs)

Just remember that when you get hooked on those combat drugs, your supplier is the GM and he can cut off your supply whenever he likes.

Oh no, don't get me wrong I understand completely. It just seems that they're under appreciated by most players. I myself play a ganger and rely almost exclusively on Combat drugs both as a role playing device and because I just don't want to take the wired reflexes ware or it's equivalent. But that doesn't mean I have to abuse them. If you're using them everyday I can see why some players would be afraid of addiction, but really I only come across a need for them every few game days.

I like reliability. I like to know my character is always ready to kick some ass even after waking up naked in a strange room with no memories. That's why I love magic and cyberware, reflexes and stat boosts that are always there, implanted monowhips and cyber-weapons and spells and all those other things that you have always at the ready.

Besides I'm normally already getting close to the augmented maximums on stats like agility and reaction (and strength with non-monowhip/electricity weapons chars) with my characters so most drugs wouldn't help that much (Or do they let you exceed augmented maximums?). But a dose of Kamikaze or even K-10 for absolute balls-to-the-wall situations is still something I could grow to like. I will have to try it.

That's pretty nasty addiction territory you're walking across there. Somebody who uses PCP every few days is going to end up a paranoid wreck within months, that kind of insanity is a good reason to go for the relatively safe implants.

For cops and guards, it is brilliant. They rarely get into firefights.

SWAT teams, infantry, runners - they see way too much action for combat drugs to be viable.

How do you check to see if an existing addiction gets WORSE?

I'm not that familiar with the rules regarding addiction, and while I see rules for GETTING addicted I can't seem to find ones for getting worse.



-karma

Combat drugs are a great last resort, especially for essence-concious characters since a breakable tooth costs 0 essence, but that also means they only come into play when everything else fails.

"Pssssst! Hey kid, you want some free Karma?"

And suddenly I'm reminded of Sleazy, the Free Spirit of Man, who would go around, buying Karma from people for money. Working out of the back of his windowless panel van.

remember Drug Use = Essence loss.. eventually.

Pretty much.

Most of these people would not use drugs for a couple reasons.

1. It's a temporary effect.
2. It's a liability.
3. Legality issues.

"Hey, everything is Disposable! Especially YOU! Take your 'vitamins' and like it!"

Exactly.

Btw, I disagree. I think that Military Units would totally have combat drugs for their front lines, deployed units.

That's why attempting to use your support character as a drug-fueled combat monkey is a bad idea

But even if there were any pockets in a burial shroud, you couldn't put your Essence in them, so as a big red "Emergency" button the tooth with Kamikaze is great.

"Hey, why does my K-12 smell like Almonds?" *Thud*

Yet another reason to always tip your Street Doc!

If they have it, it's going to be used sparingly as more of a last resort, due to the liability that the drugs incur as well as the fluff describing the symptoms of them.

Individual soldiers may be viewed as disposable in the future but you can't afford to have full squads and platoons become disabled due to the crashes from the drugs. You either double up on coverage to negate those weaknesses in the front lines that would allow enemies to slip through or you don't bust out the drugs frequently.

It depends on the military. A high-tech, professional US-style military would not; drugs are too expensive in terms of troop loss. If it's some poor African nation of conscripted child-soldiers, then the balance shifts, see? Personally, I wouldn't even call the latter 'military', so I disagree with sabs: military would not use drugs as presented in SR4, because they're too damaging, too fast.

Aztlan would probably use a lot of drugs for their soldiers.

But I'm basing that off the theory that they're controlled by what was started as a Money Laundering company for the Narco-Gangs of Mexico...

And addiction

The description for Jazz says it all...



It is printed in the book to give mooks a chance in a fight with the PCs.

And really, how often is a Mook going to run into a Shadowrunner in his life?
The Joke answer would be: Once.
But lets assume most shadowrunners don't shoot to kill, but use non-lethal options.

Your average street cop probably will run into a shadowrunner once, maybe twice a year.. tops. Possibly only a couple of times in his whole career.

I would think the the increased balkinization and general dystopia, that the "Somali warlord with a militia" is more common that what we think of as a traditional army. AK's and K-10 for everyone!

Your average street cop would most likely run into a shadowrunner once and then promptly die unless he's -really- lucky.

That's why they issued their beat cops Jazz - so they'd slow down the runners until the real support got there.

Did you read the /whole/ post?

Unless a Shadowrunner has him for a contact, that is. It's a good way to augment the crappy pay cops get, as well as get some word from the street.

One Imagines that if you are a Shadowrunner's contact.. he's probably not shooting at you? More than Once (Edited for CanRay)

Unless that's how they met.

"He shot me. But only a little. We've been friends since."

I notice the tendency, too. Never have I had a player in my games want to use any of the drugs. My buddy goes on about an old character who had Kamikaze, I think,l in an autoinjector, but he hasn't done it in my campaigns. I think as a result, I tend to forget about them in the books, though I'm trying to bring more of that into the game.

Might also have something to do with an NPC I got called "Chppy". He's a BTL burnout whose brain is very fried, but his wires and smartlink work just fine. Sort of a sign of where drugs can take you. Some of the PC's pity him and try to keep him fed, one of them is looking for an excuse to put him out of everyone's misery...

Reliablity has been mentioned as an issue. I can see that. I can see how players would prefer ware over drugs, mechanics wise. For interesting RP though, drugs could be appealing. Maybe if the ware wasn't so infalliable (damaged from glitches, old/used, home brewed or old SR2 damage charts...) you might could interest PC's more in some pills or what not.

And oh yeah, "laughter back in slaughter..." good one.

So, nobody has a page reference for how someone progresses in their addiction? Like going from Mild to Severe?

Or is it just one of those things a GM is supposed to make up on the fly?



-karma

SR4A, p.256, "Addiction Tests". It's the FIRST page of the Drugs & Brainbenders section, not exactly hard to find.

Ah, okay, I was reading those tests to be for how you GET an addiction, not as also how you determine if the addiction gets worse.

Also, the Addiction rules work oddly with the Media Junkie addiction.


-karma

Some day I'll figure out how so many GMs and players see this:

And translate it out to thinking 3 hits in a week of practically anything and you're addicted. I mean, good lord, haven't any of these people taken drugs or painkillers before?

Most of the drugs *are* powerfully addictive. The ones you'd want for combat, anyway.

Hey, they have warning labels. And your dealer is supposed to check your ID to verify that you are of the legal age to take that stuff.
There is no way that the corps can be responsible, just because some of you proles can't handle the juice.

Yeah, they pretty much give NO strict guidance on when to actually USE that test, except that the less often you call for it = the more you can expect drug use in your game.

It's not the best supported mechanic in the game.

The way I use addiction is "hey kid, want some build points?"... and then I don't really bother with it. My players don't much care for drugs once they can afford another source of IPs.

My current PC makes tremendous use of Combat Drugs in a professional capacity while attempting to stave off addiction and eventual burnout. A combat drug is an excellent equalizer if you are an Adept and you happen to be losing several points of your Magic (and therefore power points) to Background Count. This is what kept my PC alive whenever I was not operating at full magic score. Taking Kamikaze while on Cram is also what gave me the equalizer to fight ridiculously overpowered dudes by upping my IP from my usual 2 to 4. Essentially, that is how combat drugs function best: as an equalizer.

As a GM, I "gave" my fairly underpowered PCs each a dose of Kamikaze for a plot climactic run to assassinate two Renraku VIPs protected by an essentially platoon-strength group of Red Samurai. As it stands they didn't survive, not really, but they did complete their objective. If not for the Kamikaze, they wouldn't have gotten close to doing either. An equalizer, like I said. Nothing that any PC should be making a habit of. Drugs are just less...professional.

Immortal Flower is very ridiculous but it is best for Awakened characters (Magic + Body) for whom it has incredibly negative long-term consequences. Our mage 0.1 Essence (and therefore 1 Magic!) to it recently. Ouch! Also its price and availability make it a BAD thing to be addicted to.

I have a question about combat drugs, actually. If you take a combat drug and then cast Critter Form on yourself, does your Critter Form benefit from the drugs, or not? Is it spelled out in RAW?

Do the +IPs really stack?

Afaik it says nowhere that they wouldn't and it seems balanced.

The unresisted 6S certainly stacks when they both (independently) run out to 12S...guaranteed unconsciousness and quite possible death depending on how messed up you are from the run itself.

Taking the more serious combat drugs is a very risky business.

Extra IPs never stack.
Bonuses of any kind never stack (unless they say they do, like with Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes).

Technically, IPs could stack if the source material said they stacked, but it never does (that I've seen).

@Nifft....if you are right then oh boy have I been doing a LOT of things wrong.

Can I have a page reference for where it says categorically in the rules that "bonuses of any kind never stack"?

That's what I thought, Nifft. This issue comes up every time people talk about Drugs in SR4. I've seen people say that the drugs stack *with* Wires!

Nope, because I can't find one. So I'm probably wrong there.

Instead, it looks like each form of IP enhancement (Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, etc.) has wording which says it doesn't work with any other form of IP enhancement.

Cheers, -- N

But Improved Reflexes (Adept Power) says that it "cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to Initiative" which certainly doesn't cover combat drugs. Likewise the drugs themselves don't say anywhere that they don't stack with anything.

So as far as I can tell the example I listed "happens" to be totally legal according to RAW.

But "You can't cast Increase Reflexes on someone with Wired Reflexes" is a totally new one on me and one I will have to think about.