So I got thinking about Background Count and how it's supposed to be more or less pervasive in Seattle and other cities (causes include "lack of or destruction of nature", "environmental pollution", "natural death or homicide", "mind-numbing monotony and banality", and other things you'd expect to be a constant part of daily life in the city. Furthermore, a simple gathering of the Awakened is also indicated as causing Background Count. This is well-known to be canon, but in my experience at least it's almost never actually played this way; my theory is that by tucking Background Count into a supplement rather than putting it in the core book, an expectation was created that no Background Count is the overwhelming default state. You can see this issue at play elsewhere where important rules that aren't unambiguously good for the players are tucked away in supplements; the base book creates the assumption that vehicles do not require upkeep, creating resentment when new costs suddenly appear. Likewise with Stress Points; they're a "gotcha", not part of what players figured on when they first read the core book.

Anyway, enough digression on the horrible organization of Shadowrun. I was posting on the SR3R forum about giving Background Count a more prominent place in the book when I realized that there was an opportunity to go further; previously, when I thought about "magical forensics", the things that came to mind were utility spells like Catalog, Detect (Object), maybe things like that, plus the whole Assensing-magical-signature thing. Temporary background count, however, brings a whole new dimension to this—you don't need to leave physical evidence behind, nor do you have to have cast a spell, simply the act of having killed someone will leave a temporary stain on the Astral. This stain leaks less information than an astral signature, but it can't be erased without either time or a metamagic (said metamagic, incidentally, becomes genuinely useful now instead of something to take so you can feel good about roleplaying your eco-shaman whose goal is the purification of the world).

This brings me to another issue, which is the fact that we lack detailed Forensics rules (I don't have the Lone Star Sourcebook, so that might help significantly). Note that this isn't just about playing cop campaigns or rolling dice to decide if the players get caught—it's also about figuring out what the players need to do to not get caught, and I think it enhances the feeling of the game if a character with the proper Knowledge Skill can give specific advice with confidence springing from actual knowledge of how the world works (that is, the rules).

Jumping back to Background Count again, I also feel that if it's going to be pervasive it should be more interesting. Right now, minimal tactics are involved—you simply take your TN and Drain penalty and shift your choice of spells. It might be more interesting if a caster were able to choose between the TN penalty or the Drain penalty (a caster who doesn't know they're in an area with Background Count automatically chooses TN penalty), allowing them to push themselves in exchange for greater risk—alternately, maybe a weak version of Filtering could be available, allowing a mage to use a skill and an extended casting time to counter either the Drain or TN penalty (the advantage of the metamagic would be that it could counter both—I haven't weighed that to see if it's enough of an edge, especially since Filtering requires Centering meaning you need at minimum two Initiations, and probably more like four to get Centering and Masking first).

I don't know how applicable these issues are to SR4, but I think some of these ideas could be profitably applied to a game running SR3 even if it doesn't adopt other SR3R alterations, so I'm posting these ideas here for feedback. If I get time and community assistance, I might try to flesh some of them out into real rules.

~J

I think assensing background counts works as addition to regular assensing. It should be sort of an expert use of assensing, requiring higher target numbers than assensing live, present auras. A specialist forensic magician might be able to glean that violence or even a murder occurred at a crime scene, but he has to hit a much higher target number than one he would need to notice that his partner is dealing with some depression issues. Not every magician is a natural at psychometry after all.

This kind of assensing should also be vague enough as to not replace Divining, it being a full blown metamagic. It should probably only give the reader a clue to the emotional landscape at the time the background count was created. Divining can then be seen as a more complex version granting visions, and clues as to what transpired.

Cleansing and masking could have some interesting ramifications. Could an initiate skilled in masking leave a "forged" signature? Could someone with both masking and cleansing create a more elaborate signature?

In the past I've used background counts in this fashion more as a plot device. I like the idea of developing more detailed rules, but to be honest, I probably don't remember enough SR3 to really add much to the conversation.

However, I wanted to comment on your point about forensics. I have been thinking a lot recently about figuring out ways to add more forensic science into my games. The problem I foresee is that you'd have to strike just the right balance so that your players aren't spending a ridiculous amount of time and energy trying not to leave clues (unless you and your players find such a game appealing of course). The reality is that if we extrapolated modern forensic science into the surveillance heavy world of 2050-70 with SR-level technology, characters wouldn't be able to lift a finger without leaving some trace that LS or a corp could use to track them down. But it would be nice (I think) if there were some more compelling reasons to ditch a gun you've used in a crime or for using a safe house to lay low until things cool down, or whatever.

One thing that I've been thinking about is cannibalizing the Security Tally from SR3's Matrix rules and seeing if I can't adapt it to SR4's wireless Matrix. I'm wondering if, with the more integrated nature of that system I can come up with Trigger Steps that encompass not just Matrix security responses but Physical and Magical responses as well. This, BTW was something I was trying to develop back when I still played SR3 because I really like the Security Tally mechanic, but I never really hammered it all the details or play tested it thoroughly. I just think that a "Comprehensive Security Tally", if you will, has the potential to be really useful, makes planning an adventure easier and keeps the GM more honest.

Anyway, back to my point: if one could develop this Comprehensive Security Tally that encompassed Matrix, Physical and Magical security you could use the total successes scored by the opposing security forces as a kind of "forensic profile" of the run that represents (in an abstract way) the summation of all the forensic data, surveillance footage, psychometric signatures (and/or temp BG counts), eye-witness accounts, etc that a investigator has to work with. I haven't fully thought this out, but somehow the Security Tally would determine the relative ease or difficulty with which the investigator could track down the runners and the resources the corp or security force is willing to dedicate, as well as their enthusiasm for finding those dastardly runners. During a run, players would have to consider each objective and consider how many opposing successes they are willing to accept to get that task done. After a run the players could take certain actions like disposing of firearms and hiding out in safe houses to reduce the Tally or otherwise make themselves more difficult to track.

Anyway, as you can see I haven't really thought this all out, but I'd love to hear what people think.

As usual for shadowrun, current science is already at or past this point . Your web surfing is constantly being recorded into somewhat vast personal profiles that internet marketing companies then sell to interested buyers. The future is probably like this only worse.

It would be entirely possible that security firms keep large databases of crimes and use expert systems to cross reference them, looking for information. The SINless probably do have an advantage here, in that there movements go largely unrecorded, but they might still be under some anonymous file labeled with a serial number, waiting for more data.

Question is does Aztechnology or Ares really want to do anything with this information, other than knowing there is a shadowrunner that is good/bad at certain crimes. If you rack up a security tally for your last job, what's the result? Is this just to determine if the Corp you just ran against seeks vengeance?

More to determine if they're able to seek vengeance should they desire to. This sort of thing would also give more tangible benefit to things like cosmetic bioware or surgery, DNA masking, the Alter Astral Signature Initiation option, and a bunch of other stuff that right now is a "the GM gives you a tiny bonus if anyone manages to remember you have it at the right time" kind of item.


Preexisting rules indicate that you'd just need to Assense the location and that a mage can get an emotional "taste" without special skill; mention is made of being able to identify that a murder took place based on this taste, but the example is with a detective so it may rely on recognition from previous murder sites, etc. Note that this is generally similar to what a good success will allow you on any Assensing roll; you just get a hint about where to Assense from the presence of Background Count.

SotA:63 differentiates this from Psychometry in the detail, range, and historical component of information that can be collected. Removing emotional impressions, much like removing Background Count to begin with, all comes down to Cleansing.

~J

I hate destroying useful tools just because someone else once used them.

Or use them, or whatever. The point is, if they're able to collect evidence they're one step closer to whatever they want to do with the runners, and the consequences vary but are potentially significant enough that the players should be able to affect how things go.

~J

Huh, didn't know about that SOTA addition. That does color the landscape as to what is assensable in shadowrun. So now i am thinking that if background counts are assensable, which they must be, is assensing them made easier by their strength or more difficult. I am thinking it should be easier since assensing a catastrophic background count tends to send one screaming into the night (at least by the flavor text). But that could be reflected as stun damage, like feedback, rather than unfriendly knowledge of what that cabin in the woods is used for. Perhaps assensing a background count might cause drain? And that its level is measure of difficulty of sifting through the mass of information?

So perhaps you ae assensing Lofwyr's bathroom (background count 4). The level of BC is added to the normal assensing target number making it 8, making it fairly difficult to glean some information from the noise (what you might want to glean from the state of his bathroom is questionable, but I digress). But doing so invites a lot of information and causes a 4L stun drain? or Perhaps it get upgraded based on the level? maybe its 4S stun?

Now a psychometrist can roll a different target number to get much more specific info, and suffers the background count as a modifier to the target number (so that seems to be how it should go for non psychometrists too). But only ever suffers a light stun wound. Perhaps the metamagic affords better protection? or maybe the drain should always be limited to a light stun, and psychometrists have it slightly tougher being that they get more info? I am leaning towards making background counts hurt when you intentionally open yourself to them. A better fit with the "screaming into the woods" flavor text.

That would be one aspect of it, yes. There might be adjustments to the Tally depending on how damaging the run was to the corp or how high profile the crimes are (murdering security guards vs subduing them, for example). Alternately, if the corps intent is to capture the runners and force them into the corp's service, there might be adjustments for how *well* they do certain things (though I don't know exactly how I would make that work).

This too.

My current thinking is to try and adapt it to the SR3 enemy rules, such that the Tally somehow equates to a new enemy with appropriate Power, Motivation and Knowledge ratings.

At any rate, I think I've hijacked Kagetenshi's thread for long enough. If I manage to come up with a workable system (you know... with all my excess free time) I'll post it in a new thread.

The trick is that Assensing is highly based on emotions much more than on facts.

If Really Bad Things happened a short time ago in a place, you will be bombarded by despair, pain, fear, the sick enjoyment of the resident psycho and the like and I think it is what can make it hard on the assensing mage. But if the place is simply, bland and sterile the emotional load is lower, even if the background count is similar.

So I would not make it Stun damage, but rather a composure test of increasing difficulty.

How big is a gathering?

Perhaps background count needs to be codified a little to allow for different "effects" on the assenser? Positive emotions, negative emotions, and perhaps sterile environments, I would think. I just read about coffin bars in SOTA:63. Pretty much a place where awakened go to experience the background count as entertainment. So what about it provoking a willpower test with a TN of twice the background count to not be overcome. If you fail perhaps you suffer the background count as a TN modifier for all rolls (rather than just for magic skills) for a period of a few minutes, plus some compulsive effect.

My interpretation is that the Background Count itself cannot be Assensed, but that you can Assense the area of Astral Space in which the Background Count is present, which will presumably have impressions of the cause of the Background Count. Hair-splitting, really.



More difficult; Assensing is an Astral Test, so fortunately we don't need to decipher the ugly Magical Skills question to know that BC level adds to the Assensing TN. It's suggested that extremely coarse information about the background count is made easier to get by strength, and is also available to mundanes.


"[A] magician's convention or a bar frequented by the Awakened".

~J

...if they ever managed to sort through the vast pile of data which grows larger each time anybody lifts a finger. An increasing problem of modern forensics, because technology can amplify even the faintest trace the tests find the suspect's bloodstains just as well as a few skin cells left at the factory making the cotton swabs.

So I have been playing recently with a character who has Cleansing and was attempting to scrub his astral signature from a gun-fight with security forces, and my GM and I began looking at the rules as they exist in 3rd for astral signature and background counts. I gotta say, background count was not well integrated into the existing rules. Cleansing doesn't really explicitly deal with astral signatures from casting unless you generate a background count, which assumes you have done something heinous enough to create one.

What about when you just cast one spell? Is it effectively a background count of zero? Should background count and astral signatures be handled separately? or are they aspects of the same phenomena? If you have only one astral signature why would you be only able to reduce its duration by a few successes, when otherwise you can wipe out astral signatures related to a full blown background count (assuming 2 successes on a background count of 1 for some localized spellcasting)?

I think part of my beef with it is that the way astral signatures are handled in the core book is brutal. Every spell you cast leaves a mark for its force in hours unless you go back and clean it individually (generating an additional roll for each spell you use, bleh). If there was just one roll for the whole mess it would be much cleaner.

Edit - Also there are some weird aspects about the awakened causing background count that don't make sense. So a bar frequented by the awakened becomes a place where spellcasting is harder and drain is more severe? This is exacerbated by the dual natured. Imagine the presumed background count of an abandoned apartment complex in Redmond populated by ghouls who routinely capture and eat live prey. Now all of these ghouls who live there and see only by astral perception are literally getting astral interference from the act of living there? They are all awakened, so the background count is likely 2-3, possibly 4 since the conditions creating the count are still present.

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of background count. Its awesome to say the astral is a jumbled mass of emotions, and its making your spellcasting harder. That is cool and flavorful. But it needs to be fleshed out more. Dragons shouldn't have target mods to spellcasting in their lair (I would hand wave that one in a heartbeat but its something the RAW doesn't really handle). Perhaps Background count shouldn't modify assensing, or perhaps if you are attuned to a background count (because you made it) then it doesn't effect you?

I was under the impression that you could aspect the background count with enough time, and it becomes a bonus instead of a penalty.

SO the apartment complex of ghouls would give the ghouls there a boost, but the runners that come in to do damage would have a penalty. I think I read something like this regarding power sites, and toxic/blood mages. It's been a while. I remember like Hestaby was aspecting the power site on mount Ashta.

Unfortunately, aspected background count really isn't fleshed out at all. That'd be a good way to resolve it (not acting as a power site, I think, but not giving penalty), but the text is so thin as to not really support much of anything.

~J

Yeah, i think aspecting background count to allow awakened to ignore the penalties is good. Letting them use the background count as power focus is overkill. Sure, it makes sense for beings like dragons, but then what would make them want to go out and find power sites for lairs, is simply existing in a cave creates a level 4 background count/power site.

Powersites make great plot devices and become places of epic battles. As for the astral background count of ghouls, I agree and would ignore penalties for the home team. If you are talking about a tribe of pigmys occupying a power site in a volcano, I would give them the bonus. Powersites and mana lines were my favorite part of rifts.

I was reading in Street Magic and I liked their example of "aspecting"

Don't fight a Toxic Shaman in his toxic sludge filled lair.

while a toxic shaman fighting on corrupted ground is thematic, I think that there should be a distinction between a toxic shaman on polluted ground (with a background count), and toxic shaman who has polluted a power site and become aspected to it.

Both force a PC to fight the toxic shaman while fighting background count, but only the power site should provide extra dice to the shaman. There should be a reason for the awakened to search out and find power sites. If they can create them on their own, they have no reason to come into conflict with those that occupy power sites already (or much less of a reason, anyway).