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Smokeskin
Can't a spirit with this power float near a group of people, force all of them to project, with their bodies dropping as unconscious, leaving them as easy pickings for a clean up crew?
Elfenlied
Do they actually project? AFAIK, everyone caught in an Astral Gateway simply becomes dual-natured, but I'm AFB right now, so no guarantuee on that.
Karoline
Becoming dual-natured would suck quite a bit too though, as a mage can then manabolt you from the astral.

Still, this is a greatform spirit power or something like that, isn't it? That's hardly easy to get, so I don't see such a problem with it being overpowered.

It's kind of like the wealth power. Yeah, it rocks, but it isn't like a mage can summon a F3 spirit to do it.
sabs
dual nature the group
mage casts prepared multi-cast manabolt.
Everyone dies.
Makki
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 21 2010, 05:15 PM) *
Becoming dual-natured would suck quite a bit too though, as a mage can then manabolt you from the astral.


or astral combat them as they can't default on it. they can only run, IF they're not overwhelmed
Toloran
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 21 2010, 08:15 AM) *
Becoming dual-natured would suck quite a bit too though, as a mage can then manabolt you from the astral.

Still, this is a greatform spirit power or something like that, isn't it? That's hardly easy to get, so I don't see such a problem with it being overpowered.

It's kind of like the wealth power. Yeah, it rocks, but it isn't like a mage can summon a F3 spirit to do it.


Wealth is a Great Spirit power but Astral Gateway is not.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Toloran @ Sep 21 2010, 04:52 PM) *
Wealth is a Great Spirit power but Astral Gateway is not.

Not exactly. Wealth is a Greater Power, meaning it is only available to free spirits (and queen/mother insect spirits as an optional power). Astral Gateway is a Great Form spirit power, and for that matter it's only available to Guidance spirits for summoning purposes.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Street Magic page 98)
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical objects within the are to be dual natured, as well as allowing even mundanes to astrally project.
So it can be done for more than just summoning purposes, but can't force a mundane to project, only to be vulnerable to astral attack. However, as it can connect the physical plane to metaplanes as well as the astral plane, exposing a bunch of mundanes to the Metaplane of Fire probably opens a can of whupass on them.
Neurosis
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 21 2010, 11:20 AM) *
dual nature the group
mage casts prepared multi-cast manabolt.
Everyone dies.


D&D much?
sabs
What he's prepared to cast it. He knows it's about to happen, he's got surprise, against completely defenseless targets. He's been holding his action for when they become dual natured.

Maybe you D&D too much.
Mongoose
QUOTE
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical objects within the are to be dual natured, as well as allowing even mundanes to astrally project.


Given that it says all physcial OBJECTS in the area are dual natured, couldn't the target group just use their (now dual natured) guns to blow away any astral mages they see (with their now dual natured eyes / sensors)?
Neraph
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 21 2010, 02:15 PM) *
Given that it says all physcial OBJECTS in the area are dual natured, couldn't the target group just use their (now dual natured) guns to blow away any astral mages they see (with their now dual natured eyes / sensors)?

Excellent job on catching that important piece of RAW, and yes they can.

That being said, page 107 of Street Magic lists some additional Powers any Free Spirit can learn, and Astral Gateway is on the list.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 21 2010, 07:15 PM) *
Given that it says all physcial OBJECTS in the area are dual natured, couldn't the target group just use their (now dual natured) guns to blow away any astral mages they see (with their now dual natured eyes / sensors)?

And their now dual-natured bullets. Huh. But then again, the group is still fighting astral opponents from the meatworld. I believe it's been reiterated several times on here that there's not a whole lot a dual-natured fellow can do to an astral opponent, since the astral guys can move behind him in the time it takes him to swing at them.
Neraph
Right. But again, they are limited to actual Initiative Passes and Movement Rates as defined within their Initiative Passes. That means, during X person's action, the astral creature is vulnerable, as long as all other conditions are met. The game does not award super-powers to something simply because one is astral and the other is only dual-natured.
sabs
and actually reading the power, it does not make mundanes dual natured.

It gives them the ability to project. (it does not say they automatically project)

They also don't have astral perception. (they cannot see into the astral without projecting.)

So, the net effect seems to be.. that bullets become dual natured, but you can't aim them.. so I guess you could do suppression fire, and hope you hit a spirit and or mage?

Neraph
A better alternative would be a splash grenade with Shade.
Karoline
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 21 2010, 02:35 PM) *
and actually reading the power, it does not make mundanes dual natured.

Yes it does. A body is a physical object, and a mundane has a body, so a mundane becomes duel natured (as does the mundane's gun and bullets).
QUOTE
They also don't have astral perception. (they cannot see into the astral without projecting.)

Astral perception is not required to see things on the astral, it is only required to interpret what exactly they mean (reading an aura to see that someone is sad). They can still see that there is a spirit/mage over there, and so can aim their duel natured guns and fire their duel natured bullets and injure the spirit/mage.

sabs
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 21 2010, 08:55 PM) *
Yes it does. A body is a physical object, and a mundane has a body, so a mundane becomes duel natured (as does the mundane's gun and bullets).

Astral perception is not required to see things on the astral, it is only required to interpret what exactly they mean (reading an aura to see that someone is sad). They can still see that there is a spirit/mage over there, and so can aim their duel natured guns and fire their duel natured bullets and injure the spirit/mage.


It says that mundanes become able to astrally project.
A body being a physical object is.. dubious interpretation, especially given that it lists a different effect for mundanes specifically.

Adepts can't see in the Astral at all, unless they buy the Astral perception power.

I argue that the power does not make them dual natured, but instead allows them to astrally project (which they would normally not be able to do)
Although I wonder for how long it lets them astrally project, since the time limit is usually based on Magic Rating.

Ambiguous rules unite!

I'll add it to the list of things we'd like clarified.
Karoline
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 21 2010, 03:01 PM) *
It says that mundanes become able to astrally project.
A body being a physical object is.. dubious interpretation, especially given that it lists a different effect for mundanes specifically.

Not really all that dubious. Dogs have tails, mastiffs are really big. That doesn't mean that mastiffs don't have tails because I've listed something they are above and beyond dogs. Similarly just because it mentions mundanes getting something specifically doesn't mean they are no longer physical.
QUOTE
Adepts can't see in the Astral at all, unless they buy the Astral perception power.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, adepts aren't duel natured.
QUOTE
Ambiguous rules unite!

I'll add it to the list of things we'd like clarified.

Hehe, yeah. I also figure this power would allow awakened who couldn't otherwise project (adepts and mystic adepts) to project as well. The 'even mundanes' part sounds to me like 'in addition to awakened'.
sabs
Reading the definition of the Dual Natured Power:
If Astral Gateway does make the metahumans dual natured, then they can see on both the astral and physical plane at the same time.
This would allow a street Sam to open up a can of dual natured minigun-powered whoopass.
Wow, in trouble against spirits? Use this and let your heavy weapons go all dual natured on their ass.
Or worse, Vista Bus vs Astrally Projecting Mage.

Mongoose
There's also the oddity of a dual natured wall created this way seems to effectively be a rating infinity barrier. Want to absolutely, positively keep out astral visitors? Have a spirit use Astral Gateway inside a locked room that is small enough that the whole room goes dual natured- but can't be "attacked" the same way a normal astral barrier can be. Unless maybe you assign the walls ratings as astral barriers equal to physical barrier rating?
pbangarth
QUOTE (Mongoose @ Sep 21 2010, 04:30 PM) *
Unless maybe you assign the walls ratings as astral barriers equal to physical barrier rating?
That makes sense.
Mongoose
It still makes for one HECK of an astral barrier, compared to most wards, doesn't it?
WyldKnight
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical
objects within the area to be dual natured, as well as allowing
even mundanes to astrally project. The astral rift can connect to
any metaplane the spirit can visit itself (so while a fire elemental
can probably open a rift to the Plane of Fire, it probably canít
open a rift to The Hive).

I don't see how anyone is confused by this power. It says all physical objects become dual natured AS WELL as allowing someone to astrally project. People are physical objects, guns are physical objects. Need backup on the astral? Have a spirit with this ready and everybody can let hell loose on every spirit in the area with good old fashioned bullets.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Sep 21 2010, 09:50 PM) *
People are physical objects, guns are physical objects.


It makes logical sense, yes.

But does it make game sense?

Just because something works that way in real life does not mean it works that way in game logic.





-karma
Dumori
This has become the chesseyest power ever in my eyes now. Also neither op or not.
Yerameyahu
Basically, we have no idea what this power really does. All the relevant rules are 'to be explained in an upcoming sourcebook'. smile.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 21 2010, 10:06 PM) *
Basically, we have no idea what this power really does. All the relevant rules are 'to be explained in an upcoming sourcebook'. smile.gif

Oh, right, because the FAQ says 'no comment' about anything related to astral forms interacting with other astral forms.
sabs
Catalyst makes me cry with.. how bad they actually are as an RPG publishing house.
WyldKnight
Why not just downgrade it? Make it so it allows willing people to become dual natured? Wouldn't that fix the main thing people are complaining about?
Yerameyahu
That works, if the intent to to be a 'granting' power, not a forcing one.
Saint Sithney
What happens to someone with less than 1 Essence if they are forced to become Dual Natured?

Can they still project, or are they too close to being objects (maximum magic rating = 0)?
Karoline
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Sep 21 2010, 10:51 PM) *
What happens to someone with less than 1 Essence if they are forced to become Dual Natured?

Can they still project, or are they too close to being objects (maximum magic rating = 0)?

Well, since all mundanes will still have a magic of 0, regardless of essence, I don't see that having a maximum magic of 0 would make any difference.
WyldKnight
All this talk of dual natured bullets made me think. How much would you charge for bullets with anchored spells? 200 nuyen per force for 10? What is that, like 6000 nuyen per magazine on average?
Yerameyahu
There used to be rules for projection times with Essence <1. It was minutes. smile.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 21 2010, 10:18 PM) *
Catalyst makes me cry with.. how bad they actually are as an RPG publishing house.


I had a fellow weeks ago over on the City of Heroes MMO game forums, that claimed to have direct connections with the Shadowrun developers, and he promised to have the devs start posting answers here to all these rules questions that have been asked for YEARS now without response.

I would be snarky and ask him why we've seen nothing since then, but I'm too depressed.



-karma
Summerstorm
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Sep 22 2010, 06:08 AM) *
All this talk of dual natured bullets made me think. How much would you charge for bullets with anchored spells? 200 nuyen per force for 10? What is that, like 6000 nuyen per magazine on average?


Hm... i would charge about 3000 Nuyen per force per bullet. It does cost karma. Karma isn't cheap.
Neraph
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 21 2010, 02:15 PM) *
Or worse, Vista Bus vs Astrally Projecting Mage.

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