Hey everyone, I'm new to the board and Shadowrun as a whole. Anyways, the character I'm playing now has access to an Armorer's shop and has 4 ranks of armorer. What I'm looking at doing is setting up a weapons development shop for other shadowrunners and making mad money that way. Does anyone have any idea how to implement the development and production of fire arms in this game? I understand that the threshold would depend on the weapon (Such as a light pistol probably being a 12 or something along those lines depending on factors) but what would the intervals for time be? Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

No. You're a shadowrunner, man! You're not a Day Jobber, except as a Negative Quality that impedes your awesome shadowrunning.

Also: no. "Technical skills do not allow a character to create a new item/device from concept alone—that requires something along the lines of an engineering background and lots of collaborative effort."

As for the intervals of *fabricating and assembling* known devices, it's 'up to the GM's discretion', which means the devs couldn't be bothered to help us out with some guidelines. It seems like the Complex, Intricate, and Exotic intervals could easily start going beyond 1, 4, even 8 hours, though.

All that said, people in the shadows do need people who can perform weapon and armor mod/accessory work; I'd recommend focusing on that as your side job. Because your main job is shadowrunning.

Good point, I definitely don't want to get bogged down in a "day job" in game but i figure being able to make those special accessories or guns that aren't traceable might be a bonus for some people in the world my GM is running (plus, then i could afford a few of the more exciting toys). Also, being able to make a grenade launcher when we can't buy one would be a plus . Unfortunately though, I'm really not certain what weapons mods there are that can be done so i'm at a loss there.

No worries. You'll need to check out Arsenal, the book of weapons, accessories, and mods. In addition to Armorer, some mod *also* require skill in Hardware, Automotive/Industrial/Aeronautics Mechanic, or Artisan.

Also maybe some background (knowledge) skills:

Metalurgy, Engineering, Plastics, Procedures of R&D... whatever you can come up with. (A good gm will reward you for extensive knowledge when you design stuff)

… You can't design stuff. The (active) skills I mentioned are used for installing mods.

That is, creation (as opposed to fabrication) of anything will require the GM to essentially invent a rules system (crunch reason), and should be effectively impossible for one shadow-level character working alone (fluff reason). It's the realm of plot device.

Although there are no hard rules for it, skills like those can be of assistance to getting those hard to find items... like the grenade launcher.

You do not have to be able to build one from scrath. Military surpluss and other places sell 'decomissioned' items like Bazooka's, flame throwers, grenade launchers etc. To decomission them the weapons have parts removed or holes cut in the barrels, or other ways to put them out of service, then are sold to the general public and no special licensing is needed for these collectors items. As an armorer you can repair them and possibly make them servicable again. This can be one way to get some good use of your skills.

As a real life example I helped my buddies wife get him a decomissioned bazooka and flame thrower over the years. With skills he picked up in the US Army he repaired them and they are both now functioning items. Scary... he dressed in one of his old uniforms for Halloween and we all went walking around, he brought the bazooka. Was hilarious when the police saw it and wanted to check it out and play with it.

Why is it that the character can't make weapons though? I fail to understand this as it says in the description of the skill, as long as the player has access to the plans for making the object, they can make it given they have access to the plans and such. Basically, if a character has the knowledge of how weapons work and how to design them, shouldn't the character have the ability to make new weapons as long as the GM allows it? Or am I misunderstanding it...

You can *make* weapons. I (and the book) said that you can't *design* them. You can fabricate existing designs. It's still not easy, but it's possible. Unlike designing new things.

The GM can allow anything at all, but it's not part of the Shadowrun 4 rules. Remember that you're up against literally teams of hundreds of companies whose day job is to use the best resources in the world to improve on the the designs of weapons that have been refined over decades.

Of course you can build AND DESIGN stuff... there are just no rules for it, so your gm has to do it by ear. (And a lot of people you will find on this forum may begin arguing something about RAW/RAI/"I have no imagination blabla" or something like that.

As I said, the GM can do anything. However, and I'm repeating myself here, it's not like the book doesn't address this exact question:It's not that the lone genius in squalor can't exist, but it's a very rare thing, don't you agree? Ever more so as technology advances. Besides, you can almost always get what you want using the mod rules anyway.

All it takes is an appropriate knowledge skill and a threshold. Congrats, you just designed something. It's not like you need to create a whole new complicated system to do it, not to mention it doesn't take that much gear to actually make the gun. You get a computer to design it, a forge to create the parts, and then you do all the manual labor and put it together. This guy isn't looking to steal business from the mega corps, he is just trying to start a small shadow business for people who want their weapons untraceable or custom mods that would be harder to get elsewhere. Thats not a huge concept or that difficult to pull off if he is savvy enough.

And that's a house rule, that's all.

Exactly. He's asking how and I'm giving him an idea. Knowledge: Firearms/Armor/etc design is essentially all you need to design it and then armorer to build it. You could probably just use the rules already in the book for repairing and what not. Just add an extra test before that for the design of the weapon.

It's not 'just an extra test', though. It's months of work, especially for someone working alone; then, having parts custom-made (even in the nano era) isn't insignificant, and then you can finally put it together.

Why bother? Modify existing guns, or build existing (and somehow non-proprietary) designs. Be sure to destroy every last nano-tag in the materials you used, by the way, so you're not tracked down.

He asked about Shadowrun, and that's what fits into the setting and the rules. Do whatever makes it fun for you, but be aware of the whole situation.

So lets say that a character does decide to design a weapon over that prolonged period of time. It would take months and have a high threshold to beat, for arguments sake lets say it'd be a 30 armorer check or something similar. What interval would you suggest for the extended test? A day? A week? A month? Again, this is speculative, but would a threshold of 20 and an interval of two weeks be reasonable? That way, you could expect about 3-4 hits per two weeks... needing to get 5 periods of two weeks, or 10 weeks to do the design and end up with a newly designed weapon in 3 months or so. Would that be outside the realm of reasonability for a character to you guys??

As long is he's just designing his own model of an existing weapon type(heavy pistol,assault rifle,shotgun etc.) i dont really see the problem of allowing a player to do that with an extra test.
Designing a generic heavy pistol isn't extacty rocket science.

You'd be surprised how similar rocket-science is to ballistics. Both are very complicated, and need very accurate calculations. Personally, I'd at LEAST rule it as two extended tests, one to design the gun, and one to actually forge and assemble the thing, both with very high thresholds.

The big question comes down to this: Why do you want to build a custom gun? Untraceablity? Want more damage or more ammo? Turn a SS into a Burst-fire? If you are trying to make a better gun than Ares, a triple-A megacorporation with billions of Nuyen going into R&D can make, well, good luck with that one.

Again, it all comes down to what the GM of your particular game wants, but if you start allowing players to create super-weapons, you can run into some big game-balance problems. On the other hand, if your PC's find it fun to design their own gear, and you don't mind tweaking things a bit to handle it, then go for it.

You did see the word generic before heavy pistol in my post right.
Designing yeat an other 1911 clone really isn't the hardest think in the world, but a completdly new kind of gun ofcource is beyond a single PC:s capapilities.

True, but creating a 1911 clone isn't really doing much design-work. And you'd end-up creating a weapon that was essentially identical. A Kimber 1911 is going to have the same damage, ammo, etc, as a Springfield Armory 1911. Sure, there are differences noticeable to an experienced shooter, but none significant enough to translate to a change in game-terms.

I guess what I'm arguing is that weapon-design shouldn't be worth the effort in-game. Weapon modification, however, has a whole world of possibilities.

To the OP: Don't try and design new guns, or create existing guns from scratch. Instead, use your Armorer to provide easy access to custom-modified guns, with all the fun bells-and-whistles.

Are you playing the weapons specialist example character? That character also has access to a few engineering, science and weapon-based knowledge skills. With those it should be possible to design something comparable to existing firearms. At least your GM should let you get existing weapon mods very cheap compared to other characters or maybe design a few weapon (mods) that aren't in the arsenal. However, that is a lot of work imo.
Personally I find that example character to be a bit flawed, I picked him as my first character. He/she is basically a sam without implants that is based on using combat drugs (addicted to stims) and on using heavily modified weapons. Yet the caracter starts out without stims or modified weapons (or even a single rocket for his goddamn rocket launcher). Also he lacks legwork potential and has low values for a sam :/

The Sample characters /suck/ They're bad, and often times they actually aren't even street legal.

Actually, its not a house rule. Rules for designing your own blueprints are in Arsenal's Modification section. They -are- Logic+Knowledge skill tests, with a variable threshold and length dependent on complexity.

Yes but that is generaly for getting your hands on the weapons mod blueprints for X with out paying a shit load for just the blueprint let alone the parts. Still it's still you best bet to just mod guns. You can also argue that you also mod them to be harder to trace remove serials change the ballistics a bit ect.

Not quite True there, Yerameyahu... It does not take MONTHS of work to design something new, even working alone...

When I was younger (in 1982), I visited my Uncle, who is a Machinest, and who did custom work for Colt Firearms in his small Workshop/Facility (He was self-employed)... he had, among other things, a Programmable Industrial Milling Machine, Programmable Drill Presses, lathes, etc... as well as significant woodworking tools (Probably close to 1/2 Million USD in Equipment). One morning, because we were bored, we decided to make some custom firearms, completely from scratch... they were to be Black Powder weapons, so not all that complex to design... took us a couple hours to design the weapons, and program the machines to cut the required metal pieces...while they did that, we fashioned the wood pieces by hand, and then spent the rest of the weekend fitting the pieces, finishing the weapons and testing their functionality. They were functional firearms, and a lot of fun to build. It took all of 2 days, including desing, programming, implementation, and fitting/testing...

It is not all that hard to do the same thing in Shadowrun... Some design skills, metallurgy, and Armorer and you should be just fine... I would enforce the minimal requirement of a Facility (By Shadowrun Rules you need access to a facility to design/test) to proceed, but it should be possible to do so without too much difficulty...

And Yes... If I were to do this, I understand that it would be a House Rule... but, it is not all that difficult to do, if you have the know-how and the equipment to do so...

Just so you know, there are a many highly competant gun designers/manufacturers in the real world that work alone, and make weapons of FAR BETTER quality that the Big Corporations can or do... this is why their weapons selll for Thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in comparison...

Unlimited Budgets does not a superior weapon make... at least in the personal weapons market...

Just Sayin'

Udoshi, as you said, those rules are for *modifications*, not designing *new weapons*. And it might be months, Tymeaus: Again, creating anything new is a house rule (nothing wrong with that) and should be appropriately difficult (as the rules specifically mention). We're not talking about blackpowder toys, here.

Yeah, but those 58 Caliber "Toys' are just as capable of killing you as a Colt .45 is... Hell, they even had rifling in the barrels, and tapped screws (The joys of a fully equipped Machine Shop)... so they were pretty accurate out to about 60 yards or so... much like any Heavy Pistol would be... Of course, it did not hurt that my Uncle was a perfectionist as well...

Don't underestimate something that is created in a personal workshop, you might be violently surprised... Just because it is not Corporate, it does not make it any less of a quality item...

And yes, Yerameyahu, I will say that Complete, new, totally never before seen designs could indeed be months, but I would doubt it for something like personal weapons... the basic design principles have not really changed for well over a hundred years... and firearms are not really all that complex of a system really... Weeks at most, possibly even days... Assuming you had a firm grasp of Firearms design and metallurgy...

Just because it's deadly doesn't mean it's not a toy. When it's capable of full-auto from a 42-round clip ('magazine', hehe) with a smartlink and gas-vents and all the other bells and whistles, then it's a real 2070 gun. (I'm exaggerating a little, but you see my meaning.)

Besides, as soon as you allow this, then the PC pulls a Rush Job/Edge trick and starts wrecking things. Doing hard things should be hard, that's all.

A fair point, when creating a custom gun you can make them out of the best materials, and custom fit them to the user, and make the tolerances just-so. Call it a 'masterwork' gun to steal some lingo from that 'other game' with elves and dwarfs. Here's a fine example from the guy at 'Box-o-Truth':
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu107.htm


Let me refine my point: is anyone designing a band-new, innovative firearm action that actually is an improvement over the current designs? To me, that's the heart of any given weapon, and everything else is just an accessory. The people who can do that kinda thing have last-names like:
Colt
Glock
Kalashnikov
Mauser

In my game, a PC won't be able to come anywhere close. You can swap-out the grips, stock, barrel, etc, but you're not getting a whole new gun.

All Exaggerations aside...

I understand the desire to minimize the possible craziness that can result from rampant Uber-Desinging... Which is why it should be heavily moderated by the GM, no doubts... My point was that it is not really all that hard to accomplish if you have the skills and the tools... Even I have converted SA Weapons to Burst and/or Fully Automatic capabilities, in my youth... It is not really all that difficult, with the right tools and know-how... And even still, I am amazed, sometimes, that I did not blow my fool head off doing something stupid like that when I had no business doing so...

I am in no way what you would call a Certified Gunsmith, nor do I hold degrees in advanced Metallurgy, Structural Design, Weapon Design, or Ballistics, nor do I have the resources to have the Equipment to support such interests; but assuming that you could satisfy all those prerequisites, it is not that hard to design, implement and test firearms. Like I said... My Uncle could do it out of his personal workshop, and often did, sometimes on a whim.

I agree, however, that the typical campaign should never have the need to go beyond the rules for Weapon Modifications... Want something "Unique?" Just take a Weapon from any Guns Digest/Weapon Book, change it a smidge here or there, and assign it some stats. Almost every gun made can fit into the somewhat broad categories that Shadowrun uses.

And yet, Colonel Sam Colt was just a normal guy with a good idea, originally...
The Glock "Action" was not New... by the way... just it's component pieces...

Look at the 2-Bore... There is only one designer in the world who actually makes that firearm (at least currently)... and you are right, it is a Custom Job... which is why it is so expensive... That does not make it any less of a quality weapon...

There are weapons that are made from the ground up, some of which are done by designers that DO NOT WORK for any major corporation, because they would rather be a one- or two-man operation... Their name actually means something in the grand scope of things... Again... Big Budget does not equal Superior Weapon...

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with you fully on that point. Full stop.

However, those people have a 7 in Firearm design, and maybe a 7 in Firearm B/R, so you'd never see it on a PC.

Well, they *ended* up getting a 7... doesn't mean they started there right?

I disagree also this is SR the difference between 6 and 7 is practically nothing.

Well maybe my gunsmith PC only has 6 in the fire-arm knowledge skill and 6 in armorer skill, but she can also have douple the natural max of human logic, that should more then make up for the missing skill point
Not to mention the bonuses to all logic linked skills.

It should take very significant time investment, regardless. And you'll only end up making Yet Another <Category> Firearm, so why bother? Your buyers almost certainly want weapons for the edge they give, not uniqueness; that means Modifications. If someone wants a unique gun so it's untraceable, remember that it's untraceable *to them*, but traceable to you—eek.

Yeah, with the abstract nature of Shadowrun firearms, a custom built one isn't going to be THAT different than the existing firearms.



-k

There probably is a lot of calculation that goes into these guns that could benefit from modeling software specifically designed for firearms. Given a 3d model it would of course accurately model the weapon firing; the bullet spinning, its speed, the travel of the gas, the gasses interacting with the muzzle, the forces applied to the internal moving parts and barrel. The software would also be able to set up worst case scenarios, jammed cartridge, blocked barrel, extended fire until something breaks. The software would probably be able to make all kinds of auto adjustments, like you added 1.2 grams here so you need to add another gram here to balance it back out, or the gas traveling out with the empty cartridge throws the weapon off by the tiniest little bit and a very slight adjustment to the muzzle brake. The software might also simulate sound and aid in designing quieter guns by showing what specific components are a little bit noisy and what a slight change would have.

I think this software would exist because it would be useful. It is the kind of software that is sold to businesses for $10,000 per copy.