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Gamer6432
If a critter (or overpowered PC race) uses Essence Drain to boost their Essence above 6, is this a permanent thing (assuming no other factors like spending it to boost attributes or the Essence Loss trait), or does it only last a few hours or days? The power's description doesn't say one way or the other.
Summerstorm
Hm? In my book it is said very clearly: If you have drained essence in the last hour you can activate a boost. This boost (+1 on whatever you need for every 2 essence) stays on for the next 12 hours. (After that you lose half the used essence)

(SR20A, Page 294-295)
Yerameyahu
That's correct, but that's not what he asked, Summerstorm. smile.gif

Drain Essence raises temporary Essence. Essence Drain critters have rules for Essence Loss over time. See 'Essence Loss' for the specific timing of a given critter; the normal version is "Beings with Essence Loss lose 1 point of Essence every lunar cycle (1 month)", but there are exceptions. Nosferatu are 6 months, perhaps. You'll want to double-check that. biggrin.gif
KarmaInferno
Yeah, every critter that has Essence Drain power should also have Essence Loss drawback.



-k
Summerstorm
Ah i have only read what i wanted to read (again *g*).

Hm, but weird question. Why would he lose it if he doesn't use it. But yeah... MOST (all?) of those dudes/monsters use it to live forever.

Maybe i shouldn't answer questions in the middle of the night, when i just ended a 10-hour Civilization V-Marathon...
Gamer6432
Thanks for the info. The situation in question is a PC Nosferatu with a serious Munchkin problem. That 6 month Essence Loss? Yeah, frakking joke in a game. The group is trying to come up with ways to handle the situation within the rules, though if that fails to reign him in other measures will be taken.
Yerameyahu
He's a monster. Kill him. Everyone will be trying to. smile.gif

Essence Loss just *forces* Essence Drain critters to feed on people; it doesn't really 'limit' them.
Summerstorm
Hm... what is so bad about Essence Drain/Loss? I mean... haven't played an infected in SR4, but i had one in SR3. They aren't THAT powerful. Where is the problem?
Yerameyahu
It's not necessarily Essence Drain that makes them powerful. I assume the OP was asking about it because he's looking for a weakness, not because *that's* what's causing the problem. The fact that Nosferatu happen to lose (need) Essence six times as slow as everyone else is notable, of course.

And they are powerful. Just for example, Influence/Compulsion/Fear are each impressive, not to mention Regeneration; compared to those, all the enhanced senses and immunities are almost boring. smile.gif It really depends on the build, of course, because they're also expensive (at chargen); a 400BP character with the Infection added on top has a huge karma debt, but he's insane *now*.
Gamer6432
Karma debt? *is intrigued* The player started as a Nosferatu, rather than becoming infected during play.
Yerameyahu
Oh, then he already payed his 150BP. Post-chargen Infections are generally considered to incur the standard Quality 'karma debt' (2xBP, I think). This is how Latent Drakes work, for example:
QUOTE
The quality does not come free, of course. The character must pay for the quality with Karma, at a cost of 120 Karma. If the character does not have Karma available at the time, the gamemaster collects it as they deem fit from any Karma awards the character earns until the debt is paid off.

The only real solution for a problem player is to force them to follow Wheaton's Law… or keep hitting them.
Summerstorm
Then he had barely enough BP to buy anything and has to rely on attributes/powers, i guess?

When i tried building a Nosferatu i ended up being able to hardmax ONE application of one skill ONLY *g* (Was just an experiment... i got it on here somewhere). But if i would have build a well rounded char he won't be better in anything than a human mage... except in survivability (when not in the sun).

But really: No Cyber/bioware, bad allergy (can be alleviated though), ugly face, a million "cool vampire-hunters" after you. Life is not easy for those dudes. (Or unlife... whatever)
Yerameyahu
Agreed, Summerstorm. But they can still ruin a game for the whole group (just as many characters can).
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Sep 27 2010, 12:54 AM) *
Thanks for the info. The situation in question is a PC Nosferatu with a serious Munchkin problem. That 6 month Essence Loss? Yeah, frakking joke in a game. The group is trying to come up with ways to handle the situation within the rules, though if that fails to reign him in other measures will be taken.

As someone who is also a current player of a nosferatu PC, I can tell you that how much of a drawback Essence Loss is depends on how often in-game your group does a shadowrun. Within the timeframe of a single mission, Essence Loss will never matter for any Infected critter, not even the 1-month-interval guys like banshees and vampires. Beyond that, it also won't really matter if you do a job once every week or two - a vampire would only lose an Essence point every other job. It would get more balanced if they did a job every month or so with a vampire, but I guess that doesn't help you with your nosferatu.

I guess you could consider this then. Nosferatus are designed to be powerful. They are one of the rarest forms of Infected, and also one of the most dangerous owing to their intelligence, patience, and natural predisposition towards plotting. So his character is supposed to be a little overpowered. So if you want to keep him in balance, don't use methods that rely on power. I would imagine that among HMHVV-learned circles in-game, any discovery of a nosferatu is SERIOUS BUSINESS. So be a little stricter with him than the others when it comes to his preserving his anonymity. If he starts recklessly exposing himself, I think that would be an appropriate time to bring in some vampire hunters. Or agents of rival nosferatus who want to eliminate vampiric competitors. Or a mutaqua. devil.gif

In essence (no pun intended): he should be working hard to keep his condition a secret. That in and of itself should balance things a bit.

also if his character doesn't have any character traits even bordering on mental disorders, than he's doin it wrong.

EDIT: I also agree with Summerstorm. No nosferatu should have maxed stats in anything, and it's not like they don't also have severe natural limitations.
sabs
can't he use Essence to raise stats?
But then He'd have to be feeding all the time.. because of the 12 hour thing.
Laodicea
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Sep 26 2010, 06:44 PM) *
Maybe i shouldn't answer questions in the middle of the night, when i just ended a 10-hour Civilization V-Marathon...


10 hour? Hah! I will crush you with my muketeers! VIVA LA FRANCE!
Aerospider
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Sep 27 2010, 12:54 AM) *
Thanks for the info. The situation in question is a PC Nosferatu with a serious Munchkin problem. That 6 month Essence Loss? Yeah, frakking joke in a game. The group is trying to come up with ways to handle the situation within the rules, though if that fails to reign him in other measures will be taken.

I started a topic earlier in the year about how that six-month Essence Loss for the nosferatu is a big pain in the arse for them.

Why?

Because RAW will only let you use the attribute-boosting ability of the Essence Drain power for Essence drained in the last hour, it lasts 12 hours and you can only burn half of the drained Essence. The only way to lose the rest of the Essence you drain is to sit around and get hungry naturally. At 1 per month for standard infected that's a serious pain, but for nosferatu? Atrocious, even when you factor in that they can store 50% more Essence.

Now the rules don't specifically ban using the Essence Drain power when your Essence is at maximum, but it would throw up some awkward questions if one allowed it so the infection and debilitation capabilities are crippled too.

By RAW, your average nosferatu player can drain 13 points of Essence (start at 5, maximum 18, YMMV) and use 6 for one or more boosts, then drain another 6 and use 3 for boosts, then drain 3 and use 1 for a boost. Then that's it for around around 4 to 5 months at which point he will lose a single point of Essence and be able to drain again. Except he still won't have enough to gain another boost that will take the rest of the year and after all that waiting he can drain 2 points and use 1 for a boost. Then wait another six months ...

It might be quite nice for the character not to have to worry about sustenance for years on end, but for a player that's a thoroughly boring prospect.

If you check out the other thread, Muspellsheimr posted a very good house rule to solve the problem.
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