First off, can a drone with the "Cyborg Adaptation" modification as stock still be rigged as an ordinary drone (i.e. by a person or an e-ghost with the appropriate capabilities)?

Secondly, assuming we are talking about an NPC, is there any reason in the rules while the CCU module of a cyborg could not be 'possessed' by an e-ghost instead of an actual brain, using the rules for cyborgs on p. 159 of Augmentation?

Basically, I am trying to find a legal way to get an e-ghost "inside" a Tomino, and I need to figure out if that is possible via the former or the latter. From my own reading, the former seems like less of a stretch, but I'm not sure.

Any drone complex enough to have skillwires has to have some level or response and there for a link. That link is like any other node, one that could theoretically be taken over by a E-ghost type AIs. I'm not sure what that would look like translated into something that fight with a PC but i will try and put something on paper and come up with an answer. I'm sure there are other factors that would make that whole process difficult, not the list of which includes the owner of that hardware isn't going to be very happy with Said E-Ghost. But who knows, could be fun to watch.

Well I'm looking forward to coming up with the stats tonight. I just want to make sure that's possible.

The concept is that the Tomino BELONGS to the e-ghost (given to him by his 'employers', long story) as opposed to being an existing cyborg that is getting jacked.

The simplest thing I think is leaving the CCU unused and having the e-ghost rigging the Tomino like a standard drone, assuming that is legal. i.e. no brain-in-a-jar at all.

If you take a look under the AI character creation (Runner Companion Page 90) it discusses AIs and more specifically a "home Node" it lists drones as possible home nodes, you would need to give said E-ghost the Piloting Origin quality (See 91) to really make it "legal" but clearly that is working as intended.

I don't see any reason a Tomino can't be rigged like any other anthroform drone, assuming it has the wireless connections needed to do so. It probably does, though I expect a jar head might disable that and / or slave the drone to his CCU comlink.

@Marcus: Interestingly, the e-ghost does in fact have a different home zone.

@Mongoose: Thanks, that's the answer I was hoping for.

The way they're written up, all of the cyborg adapted drones in Arsenal are more or less just drones with an extra compartment for the CCU. Technically, a cyborg wouldn't really NEED to be installed into the drone to operate it, they could remote operate it just like any other rigger.

Which is what they are. Rigger in a box.



-k

The CCU is not really a node, it is the hardware needed to keep a biological brain functionning and interface it with the hardware. It is mostly useless for a digital entity, be it a sprite, e-ghost or AI

In this case what makes the more sense is to keep the chassis, but ditch the CCU adaptation and put a decent node in the freed space in which the e-ghost can reside and ride the drone from the inside rather than through a Matrix connexion.

Changed my mind.

Heck, rip out the CCU adaption and install one of the more portable Nexi.

The Evo Mobile Terminus would work. It's already available in a medium drone, so the size should not be an issue.



-k

This doesn't help but all I could picture after reading this post was this scene from Venture Bros:

Hehe... i just saw the episode where Ghost Robot fought 21...

On topic: Too bad it isn't clearly stated how much CCU-compatibility costs, or better: How much a Tomino/Otomo costs without that crap.

Right: we know the exact cost of CCU-Compatibility. There's just no rule for 'selling off' a built-in mod. Really, you shouldn't be allowed to, but your GM might let you make a (hard) B/R test to remove the gear, then sell for the standard 30%. Still a fair bit of money.

the main problem is finding a buyer. the people who can actually put a CCU to good use typically won't be looking for a second-hand one. i would consider it to be at least impacted as if the market was already too full, personally (though on the flipside, that one time where there actually *is* someone in need of a second-hand CCU could cause a higher-than-normal demand, since it is such a rare item). so either they'd have to sell it cheap, or wait until it actually becomes needed, imo.

but in any case, i would agree with the observation that a CCU adaptation is really just the connections and space to fit in a CCU, and you could just as easily put a much smaller object (such as a commlink) in it's place. you could also put a *really* small metahuman, in theory (maybe a gnome, but even that might be pushing it?)

Agreed, but that's sort of what the 30% is for. It certainly depends.

I wouldn't think you could put anyone (even a Pixie) in the space, though.

Fortunately in this case, it's for an NPC (and an NPC for whose handlers, money is no object) so cost is a total non-issue, but non-cyborg versions of the Anthro-Badass drones (at least the Tomino) would be cool to have as an option for PC riggers.

surprisingly, we actually have a size listed for a CCU. it is likely larger than what you are thinking:



i'd say you can definitely fit a pixie in that. it would have to be a small gnome, however, and the gnome would have to be curled up to take up the smallest amount of space possible.

an adult gnome is mentioned as ranging in size from 70 to 100 centimeters tall. if you take a short gnome, they could easily tuck their legs into their body to remove 20 centimeters off their height i should think (and if they bow their heads, even more). meanwhile, since the body is most likely a lot less than 1/2 as wide as it is tall, it seems likely a gnome would be considerably less than 30 cm across. i don't doubt it would be uncomfortable, but i do think it would be possible for a small gnome (particularly if you find one who is even shorter than 70 cm tall) to fit into the space provided. given that mobility is not strictly necessary (they would be controlling the drone via wired or wireless controls), it could potentially work.

It would certainly be an expensive substitute for a glass jar that would do the same thing. : P

Pixies are 46 centimeters tall on average.

And now I have book reference for showing how a pixie-sized rigger cocoon fits in a medium drone, especially since I also spend mod slots on the cocoon + extra entry point!

Mwahahaha!




-k

Thanks Jaid. That *is* the first time I've seen a good reason for allowing a Pixie in a drone. On the other hand, that's a really tight squeeze: is there room for the Pixie *plus* the Cocoon? Perhaps not.

I thought about something. The Cyborg adaptation is only 15K, not really that expensive, and is somewhat standard. The major cost is the CCU.

So what you could do is design an armored pixe-box (or onboard node for a digital entity) with a compatible shape and ports, fit it with it's own life support (or backup batteries) that you can unplug and move to a shelf (or another drone) when you don't need the specific body or have to do work on it that requires to shut it down.

You realize a rigger rides INSIDE a rigger cocoon, yes?

It's just an enclosed armored seat that keeps a rigger's body from bouncing around too much. They're really not that complicated.



-k

Yes: it's a whole seat, with armor. So, I ask: if a pixie is 46cm, and the space is 50cm by 30cm (cylindrical), is there room for the pixie *plus* the armored seat?

What's the wing span on a Pixie? Putting something with wings in confined space like that is certainly going to require some training and desire on the part of the pixie. If its the that close it certainly possible to modify it and the base unit to make one they could fit in. But at 400k a pop i don't think this is a big risk.

It's not like we (or rather, 'they') can't make anthroform vehicles with room for a pixe, gnome, dwarf, or bigger metahuman. The Otomo simply *isn't* one; it's a drone, with space for a very small brainjar.

You're right: we're assuming the wings don't exist, have been 'safely' and 'willingly' removed, or take up zero space. Whoops!

many creatures that have wings come complete with a way to fold those wings to be very out-of-the-way, typically by placing them against the body. i'm not an expert on pixie anatomy, but i would tend to expect they would follow this model, and simply be able to fold their wings against their body. while sitting down on them while doing so would probably not be a good idea, i think it's safe to say that you're going to be paying for the rigger cocoon to be customised for a pixie to be useful anyways (ie a cocoon built for a human won't provide much protection from being bounced around)... and that you could simply assume that the pixie is either standing up, or lying down, etc, depending on the orientation of the drone.

Well, nothing's ever impossible. I'm just pointing out (in this case, agreeing with Marcus' pointing out) the issues to be considered. So, in a 30cm diameter circle, a pixie, wings, armored chair, and armored cocoon around it all. Hmm. :/ That's *really* small.

Except it's not JUST the freed up CCU space. It's an additional mod slot, required for the rigger cocoon, plus another mod slot to add in an access door.

Arsenal more or less restricts stuff from fitting in too-small vehicles by means of the modification category.

If a modification is listed as "standard" category, then mini and micro drones can't use it. Some mods have additional requirements, like a minimum Body rating.

So strictly speaking, you can stick a Rigger Cocoon on a Small drone. Although in that case, it's probably more of a Cocoon with a drone attached, than a drone with a Cocoon.

A pixie-sized cocoon just costs more.


-k

Perhaps ideally, but we all know that's not really what mod slots represent; there are small drones that are clearly too small to hold a rigger cocoon of any size. I agree that that's the fairest way to handle it, though, and (lacking Rigger 3's more detail space/cargo/people rules) what you should do in SR4. I'm just not sure it's fair *enough*, given that it's basically cheese.

I know your personal situation, and I'm sure it works fine in your game, which is all that matters. Paying slots and cash goes a long way, as long as you don't also allow those ridiculous Overmod rules…

Oh come now Overmoding is awesome, it totally lets you play with the projected max possible difficulty tests which almost never seen outside of the old cha+negotiate test to find that 30F piece of gear.

Here is one "creature" that came about as a result of these experiments. I will transcribe the other later, but this one is easier to reformat for Dumpshock. Each of these is a potential 'final boss' of the series of adventures/campaign I am just finishing up. They are pretty similar, except that one is a drone and one is a cyberzombie. Both of them are pretty high on the 'AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!' factor scale of PC pants-crappingness. I left off the pilot's skills/attributes because they are fairly irrelevant to the design of the drone itself but I could add those for the curious.

Excuse the formatting, still learning how to translate my very pretty (in .doc) stat blocks to something that won't look like complete ass on the forums.

Customized Mitsuhama Tomino
Handling +2
Speed 35
Accel 6/18
Body 10
Armor 10
Pilot 5
Sensor 6

Modifications: Body Stabilizer (2), Cyborg Adaptation (Modified), 2 Mechanical Arms, Nanomaintenance System (4), Touch Sensors, Walker, Smart Armor (8), ECM (6), Engine Customization (Acceleration), Weapon Mount (Remote Control, Reinforced, Flexible, External).

Weapons:
Right Arm: Custom Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle (Extended Clip, Additional Clip, Heavy Barrel) with external satchel power pack.
Left Arm: Fichetti Pain Inducer with Laser Sight.
Weapon Mount: Custom Enfield GL-78 (Firing Selection Change, Large [BF]) loaded with Fragmentation Grenades.

The cyberzombie is, as you can imagine, much more in depth. I may get around to posting it later.

Cute. The gauss cannon is the only thing about it that would give me pause, and even then, not much.

But then again I am far and away from your average 'runner.

EDIT: If you have some instant-chat thingie I can send you the statblock I use and see if you like it. It's slightly easier to convert to DS-postings.

The Tomino is flashy and fun but doesn't stack up to your average troll PC cyber tank. You have to upgrade the armor on it by 10 points just to make it worth having around at all. It's also really expensive.

The Tomino controlled by a rigger with the right implants and commlink modifications can have 5IP.
That's pretty brutal.

Yeah, that goes for any drone, though. The LEBD is arguably more useful and far less expensive.

Hell, if it's an NPC, just say they installed the simsense booster before they did the cyborg conversion. Put a simsense accelerator in the CCU commlink and BAM, a cyborg with 5 IPs.



-k

It's not clear what/if augmentations can be used in cyborg brains. It doesn't seem fair.

It kinda is actually. It states that the proccess drops you to 0.1 Essence and that all that's left is your brain, so logically all implants that are located in the brain would remain. You'd lose your Bone Lacing, but not your Cerebral Booster.

What's not clear is why the CCU has R10 Damage Compensators. The brain itself no longer has a physical/stun track, but is still subject to biofeedback, which does.... what exactly?

I think you guys are much more 'leet than my PCs. Maybe with you guys, 5 IPs would be necessary but I have a feeling this thing and three IPs will be more than enough for my guys to handle. Though keep in mind, this thing is coming out at the very very very end of the adventure. After the PCs have fought through several other scenarios and been worn down by attrition.

Remember the Tomino is being piloted by an E-Ghost rather than being an actual cyborg, so cyberware is not really relevant.



Initially, it had Armor 15 but I got rid of that because I didn't want to decrement its speed further. Keep in mind your ideal of what an 'average' PC is an mine aren't going to line up perfectly. For my PCs (400 BP, ~100 Karma [almost all of it squandered on regenerating burnt edge]) this thing constitutes a significantly challenging and really fucking deadly boss fight.

Your mileage may vary. I have a feeling you are more into hardcore optimization than my players and almost certainly some of you guys are packing more karma. Like whatever Neraph is playing that an automatic grenade launcher would not even give pause to...yeah....

The cyberzombie (to come later) is significantly more tough and lethal.

Thanks for the feedback!

The players in my game(s) aren't even that optimized. But they would take down this thing in 1 round. Anyone throwing 15+ dice (even with a pistol) that has any edge will take it down in 1 IP.

If it drops a normal brain to 0.1, then an augmented brain would drop lower. It's *not* clear. Otherwise, you'd expect those smart corps to augment the hell out of their test subjects (used standard, why not?), and then just go, 'oh, free everything because it's automatically 0.1'.

15 dice is kind of a lot, first off, but what's this about 'take it down in 1 round with a pistol'?

narrow burst machine pistol for 6p, 15 dice with 2 edge, your hits will vary widly with edge due to the nature of re-rolling 6s, but my guess is you will land anywhere from 6-10 hits. Lets say its 7 hits.
13DV incomming to the tomino.
10 armor + 10 body = 20 to soak. He will average 6-7 hits on a roll. 13DV-6 or 7 = He takes 6-7P on the first shot. In comes the second shot for an additional 13DV. Tomino takes another 6-7p on the second shot. He's sitting at 12p now. His damage track is 8 + half body(5) = 13DV. He barely lives through this scenario, and he's got a huge modifier for all future actions. This is assuming they dont have any fancy ammo to shoot, or a far superior weapon like any assault rifle, for example.

He doesn't get a reaction dodge?
He can't spend edge on his dodge?

If you don't get at lest 4 net hits you do stun = no damage

And why can't he edge his soak roll? You're using 15dice+edge and getting 6-10 hits, but he gets 20 dice and only gets 7?

Cyborges get 4ip base so you only need the accelerator in the CCU for 5ips.

AND as the rules stand... NOBODY fields a damn Tomino without upgraded armor. It comes with 10... but can easily carry the MAXIMUM amount possible (20), which costs NOTHING in comparison to its standart cost of a QUARTER MILLION.

Also smart armor... pack a bit of it on top of it too.

Getting a Tomino down is rail-gun or laser country.

Also his dodge pool is prety rediculous

so response (6) +2 for vr, + 2 for rigger control potentially +dodge skill +2 specialty(anthroform)

so you're looking at 14+dodge dice, vs your 15 attack dice, and you need to get 14 net hits to hurt him.

Yeah, he probably gets a reaction roll, but his reaction doesn't look like it'll be that high.

He could roll edge, but as a GM, I don't generally make my NPCs use edge, only occassionally. That's just my choice.

Anyway, the point of this little excercise was to show that your average gunslinger PC(not even truly optimized) can take out this thing without any special ammo, or even a good gun.

There's a lot of ways to make a tomino a lot more deadly than the one presented here. 10 more armor and a R4 tacnet would be a good start.

So… a machine pistol is not a pistol, and you didn't let him dodge *at all*? I assume you're also winning initiative, because the example had a Gauss Rifle to kill you first.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say.

In my naive, idealistic, world - player characters sneak up on Tominos with Gauss rifles.