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Knight Saber
I've recently had a mage character join a magical group and get the chance to initiate (at grade 1). This is the first time it's ever come up for me and I'm wondering what the best metamagic choices are. Hermetic mage with a strong combat focus. Masking seems the most logical to start with... being able to look mundane is useful for a runner mage, though it's not quite as good as earlier editions... it used to be "If you're initiated, anyone not as initiated as you can't see your real aura." Centering is another possibility, though the benefits aren't quite as great at grade 1, and I do have a level 2 power focus when a little extra drain resistance is needed.

Thoughts? Practical advice?
Sephiroth
Since when do power foci assist drain resistance? Last I checked, Magic is not an attribute rolled to resist drain.

Ally Conjuration is quite worth it if you can put up with how much of a karma sink it is.

If you have Arcana, as a hermetic you should be fairly competent with Divining. You can see into the future, man.

Invoking is a great thing to use during downtime between runs, although as a hermetic your list of great form power options is rather limited (you do get Quake, though).

Masking is an excellent early choice as well. It is the first step towards being able to use Quickening effectively, which can be very good if used properly.
pbangarth
I've always seen Drain as the primary limiter to a mage's power. While the effect of Centering itself grows slowly, it and its big brother Shielding allow for the use of foci which do help Drain Resistance.

The Power Focus, as Sephiroth so diplomatically points out, does not aid resisting Drain, as the Drain Resistance Test does not use the Magic Attribute.
Summerstorm
Hm.. first one should be masking, i think. It enables you to scout through wards (in some circumstances) gets the heat of your ass and cloaks you from assensing7recognizing your aura.

After that... there are too many useful ones... depending on your specializations/playing style.
KarmaInferno
I wish Quickening didn't suck so much now.

Karma equal to the spell Force is just painful. Especially when it's not all that hard to break a quickening.




-k
Nifft
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Oct 7 2010, 06:49 PM) *
Since when do power foci assist drain resistance? Last I checked, Magic is not an attribute rolled to resist drain.
Maybe he meant Spellcasting focus?
I know that in 4e20a they removed that option for all foci.

QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Oct 7 2010, 06:49 PM) *
Ally Conjuration is quite worth it if you can put up with how much of a karma sink it is.

If you have Arcana, as a hermetic you should be fairly competent with Divining. You can see into the future, man.

Invoking is a great thing to use during downtime between runs, although as a hermetic your list of great form power options is rather limited (you do get Quake, though).

Masking is an excellent early choice as well. It is the first step towards being able to use Quickening effectively, which can be very good if used properly.
Yeah, Masking and Ally are great.
It also depends what kind of campaign you're playing.

- If you find yourself suffering from Drain too often, consider Centering.

- If you find yourself suffering from background count, consider Cleansing.

- If you find yourself subject to investigation due to your nefarious activities, consider Flexible Signature.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 8 2010, 12:35 AM) *
I wish Quickening didn't suck so much now.

Karma equal to the spell Force is just painful. Especially when it's not all that hard to break a quickening.




-k

I believe the way around this is to get Extended Masking first. Since SM states that the metamagic allows the initiate to extend Masking to her foci and quickened spells, and since Masking is used to pass through wards without tripping them, it is much more effective to have Quickening with Extended Masking than just Quickening by itself. EDIT: I guess it doesn't really help with the karma though... still, Quickening is a very good choice as a later initiation metamagic.
Neraph
I'm a fan of Shielding, leading to Absorption.

Of course, if you've seen me post about my Ally Spirit thread, I like that one too, although with the newer Calling rules you can basically do it for free now.

And lastly, I'm a believer of being able to use Geomancy on Astral Hazing (there's debate on this one, so YMMV), so assuming that to work, it's fun also.

EDIT: For Masking/Extended Masking, I normally just get a Power Pact with a free spirit for Aura Masking, although I know some people out there like pointing out that Power Pact only lasts for 24 hours (even though you can infinitely refresh it, some like to take things away from their players).
Makki
QUOTE (Nifft @ Oct 8 2010, 01:43 AM) *
- If you find yourself suffering from Drain too often, consider Centering.

- If you find yourself suffering from background count, consider Cleansing.

- If you find yourself subject to investigation due to your nefarious activities, consider Flexible Signature.


-if your GM throws a lot of magic at you, consider shielding+absorbtion. it's like magical duels from harry potter nyahnyah.gif

-if you rely heavy on spirits, go for Invoking obviously

-my personal favourite of them all: if you're good at assensing, psychometry is just awesome

-I don't really favor Masking that much, because I don't care if they know I'm awakened. They'll find out sooner or later. But Extended masking for passing wards with active foci is nice. If you're afraid of getting tracked and unveiled Maskind and Flexible Signature are the choice.
Neraph
Masking, Extended Masking (or just Aura Masking, as I mentioned above), and Astral Chameleon is an amazing combination.
Mäx
Shielding is pretty nice, especially if your initiating at chargen(karmagen) so you can grap a force 3 shielding focus to go along with that(15k nuyen.gif and 28karma for bonding + restricted gear)
In play its only really useful pick at first initiation if you soonish after have 24-36 karma to bond force 4-6 shielding focus (cheap in nuyen.gif at 20-30k)
Or if your planning on picking up its advanced form absorption at your second initiation, which might not be a bad idea if you find yourself facing a lot of magicians.
Shielding+absorption make for a bad-ass anti-mage:
Level 2 initiative with force 4 shielding focus and counter spelling skill of 6(spec for combat spells) + a mentor giving bonus to combat spells has
Body/Willpower 4(for simplicity's sake, might be different values)
counter spelling 6
spec 2
mentor 2
shielding 6(foci+initiation grade)
absorption 2(initiation grade)
= 22 dice for the test = 7 hits on average = fully absorbs spells up to force 7(lets assume he raised his magic to 7) and can now reduce the drain from her next spell by 7(or the force of the spell absorbed if less) so she could for example cast napalm with a drain code of force/2 love.gif
Whipstitch
Invoking isn't for everyone, but if you like binding it's a pretty good first choice given that it doesn't rely on Initiate Grade to do its thing. After all, Masking, Flexible Signature, Centering and Shielding are all wonderful choices for virtually any practitioner, but as other posters have already pointed out, they each take a couple grades or a focus before they really start to shine. I like it better for traditions with ready access to Guidance Spirits than I like it for Hermetics though. Astral Gateway is basically metamagic grade mojo all on its own.
Saint Sithney
What? No one's going to say it?


Channeling.
Welcome to crazy bullshit tank town.
(obviously this doesn't apply to a Hermetic mage, but you know it's the best.)
pbangarth
Yeah, that's number one for a Possession tradition mage.
Neraph
Non-Possession Traditions can still make use of it with the Free Spirit binding rules presented in Street Magic and the Calling rules in Running Wild. Think outside the box.

EDIT: Heck, all you have to do is Banish and then Resummon a Possession mage's spirits and you get access to them anyways.
pbangarth
But by the text of Channeling, only Possession tradition mages can learn and use it.

Even if that were not the case, a non-Possession tradition mage would have to wait till she came across a Possession spirit, and then went through the Banishing, re-Summoning, Binding cycle. Whereas the other first-order metamagics described here are available for use by the hermetic mage as soon as she Initiates.
Neraph
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 8 2010, 11:16 AM) *
But by the text of Channeling, only Possession tradition mages can learn and use it.

Ahh. It's been a while since I read it.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 8 2010, 11:16 AM) *
Even if that were not the case, a non-Possession tradition mage would have to wait till she came across a Possession spirit, and then went through the Banishing, re-Summoning, Binding cycle. Whereas the other first-order metamagics described here are available for use by the hermetic mage as soon as she Initiates.

Um... Only if you were to ignore the Calling and Binding of free spirits. Then yeah, they'd have to wait around.

But yes, apparently only Possession-Tradition mages can learn Channeling.
Shinobi Killfist
For logic based traditions I suggest masking and then extended masking. You should have the logic to help keep a lot of focuses active, it is the one perk of being a logic tradition. Abuse it. I am such a big fan of inititating I think it takes precedence over almost everything else. I'd shoot for grade 4ish before getting my magic to 6 for example. Then with the high initiate rating extended masking, shielding, and centering really rock.
Neraph
I agree-ish. Except I'd take Quickening over Centering, and Quicken Improve (Willpower) and Improve (Other Drain Attribute) up to their augmented maxes - you'll get more mileage than you would from Centering, and with Extended Masking noone will ever know.

And I start with a Magic of 6, unless I'm an Infected, so I only care about Initiating.
Knight Saber
Thanks for all the suggestions!

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 8 2010, 12:10 PM) *
For logic based traditions I suggest masking and then extended masking. You should have the logic to help keep a lot of focuses active, it is the one perk of being a logic tradition. Abuse it. I am such a big fan of inititating I think it takes precedence over almost everything else. I'd shoot for grade 4ish before getting my magic to 6 for example. Then with the high initiate rating extended masking, shielding, and centering really rock.


Ahhh, I hadn't even thought of the benefits of extended masking. The character has three foci already (Power 2, sustaining detection 1 and a weapon 2) with plans on another sustaining. She's already at magic 6 from BP.

Has anyone tried to use masking to impersonate a dual aspected creature or a shapeshifter?? That is "another kind of astral creature" after all.
Whipstitch
I don't see any good reason to forbid it, since the RAW seems pretty clear there. About the only real hurdle I could see is if you're trying to present a rare "type" of aura you've never assensed before, but that's kind of a situational thing and a GM call. I'd personally just assume initiate grade magicians would have the prerequisite expertise in all but the the rarest cases anyway. Even then if the fake was somehow unconvincing you'd still be covering up your real aura anyway.
Critias
I'd go Masking, then Centering, myself. Those are two that it just seems like every Shadowrunner magician will benefit from -- increased anonymity and increased capacity to resist drain -- and everything after those two will vary based on play style. I could see going for Invoking instead of Centering on a very binding-oriented character...but, yeah. In some order, those three would invariably be my first choices.

It seems hard to go wrong with Masking for a professional criminal, especially one who's already got at least one Focus.
KarmaInferno
Well, if casting is a secondary thing for you, and you don't toss many high force spells, can see Centering being less beneficial.




-k
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Knight Saber @ Oct 9 2010, 04:00 AM) *
Thanks for all the suggestions!



Ahhh, I hadn't even thought of the benefits of extended masking. The character has three foci already (Power 2, sustaining detection 1 and a weapon 2) with plans on another sustaining. She's already at magic 6 from BP.

Has anyone tried to use masking to impersonate a dual aspected creature or a shapeshifter?? That is "another kind of astral creature" after all.


With 3 focuses I'd definitely shoot for extended masking.

Why did you pick up a weapon focus though? They are not really that useful for a mage, they are not terrible but how often are you getting in melee. I'd shoot for a sustaining focus 4 health, next. It is expensive, but improved reflexes with 4 hits is awesome.

And yes you should be able to mask to impersonate a shapeshifter as long as you have assensed one, though you may be missing physical clues so it might not work overall.
Neraph
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 9 2010, 09:23 AM) *
Why did you pick up a weapon focus though? They are not really that useful for a mage, they are not terrible but how often are you getting in melee. I'd shoot for a sustaining focus 4 health, next. It is expensive, but improved reflexes with 4 hits is awesome.

She's (right?) planning on making Bloodmourne, of course.

Actually, I'd imagine that it's to help a little with melee (all my characters have a ranged and melee weapon skill at least), beat ItNW without resorting to spells, and help out with Astral Combat. Right?
Knight Saber
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 9 2010, 08:23 AM) *
With 3 focuses I'd definitely shoot for extended masking.

Why did you pick up a weapon focus though? They are not really that useful for a mage, they are not terrible but how often are you getting in melee. I'd shoot for a sustaining focus 4 health, next. It is expensive, but improved reflexes with 4 hits is awesome.

And yes you should be able to mask to impersonate a shapeshifter as long as you have assensed one, though you may be missing physical clues so it might not work overall.



QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 9 2010, 09:02 AM) *
She's (right?) planning on making Bloodmourne, of course.

Actually, I'd imagine that it's to help a little with melee (all my characters have a ranged and melee weapon skill at least), beat ItNW without resorting to spells, and help out with Astral Combat. Right?


Correct on all counts. Also, for style. There isn't much that can help you defend or resist damage in astral combat... being able to parry with the weapon focus saved my bacon once.

A level 4 Health sustaining to use on improved reflexes is logical, but I have a variety of sustained manipulation spells I'd like to have up. Levitation, Cold Aura, Mob Control... Not the most powerful choices, but again, stylistic... there's something neat about flying around freely.
Critias
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 9 2010, 11:23 AM) *
Why did you pick up a weapon focus though? They are not really that useful for a mage, they are not terrible but how often are you getting in melee.

Tradition! Efficiency be damned!

Sally Tsung carried a "magesword," right there in the very first page of the very first piece of Shadowrun fluff in the very first Shadowrun book -- and that's good enough reason for me. grinbig.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 9 2010, 02:34 PM) *
Tradition! Efficiency be damned!

Sally Tsung carried a "magesword," right there in the very first page of the very first piece of Shadowrun fluff in the very first Shadowrun book -- and that's good enough reason for me. grinbig.gif



Hard to argue with Sally Tsung, after all... smile.gif
jakephillips
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 9 2010, 04:34 PM) *
Tradition! Efficiency be damned!

Sally Tsung carried a "magesword," right there in the very first page of the very first piece of Shadowrun fluff in the very first Shadowrun book -- and that's good enough reason for me. grinbig.gif


I agree, I played a mage on several times with a mage blade or staff weapon focus. Those of us who play ork or troll mages use the mage blade to defend myself and kill spirits. Big spirits with counterspelling are very dangerous.
Whipstitch
Honestly, weapon foci are pretty terrible against Spirits relative to a good Mana Bolt. Some spirits may have counter spelling, but ALL spirits have Dodge and Unarmed Combat plus even the slowest types have a Reaction score of F+2 but none have increased mental attributes. A Force 5 manifested Spirit of Air, for example, will defend against a melee attack with anywhere from 14-19 dice depending on whether it goes on full defense or not, and Great Forms even have a Reach bonus. I mean, hey, it's your character, so use a weapon focus if you want-- they're cool, and god knows mages can afford to be a bit eccentric and still be very good runners-- but they're still pretty lackluster compared to say, a Power or Spellcasting focus. They're sorta nice to have around for beating up some lout when it'd be a disadvantage to go flashing around obvious mojo, but they're generally not something you want to go charging the Big Bad with.
Knight Saber
For fighting manifested spirits, you are correct. For fighting on the astral plane, things are a little different. With the quick movement there, any spirit will be able to get into melee range with you. Having an Astral Combat specialty of (your weapon focus) and the bonus of the weapon focus itself can add up quite nicely, allowing you to defend against the fire spirit's claws while you are able to cast that mana bolt instead of taking a full dodge action.

Weapon foci were the pinnacle of mage items back in 1e... they had the effects of a weapon foci and a power foci, so if you had one, you were bad! You could still do that of course... you can make one item more than one type of focus, as I recall, or at least make a non-weapon focus in a mundane weapon.

The big concern I have is that a sword is a conspicuous item... even if it's not activated, people can still see it is a sword and will stare at you when you go to the Stuffer Shack and ask you to check it in a lot of places. A collapsible baton or staff would be the ideal power/weapon focus combo item... you don't need to have it extended to use it as a power focus, after all. Elly in Xenogears made that look good. smile.gif
Whipstitch
Sadly, the RAW says that Weapon Foci apply a bonus to melee attacks. It doesn't say anywhere that you get to add the bonus to your defense tests. It'd be an exceedingly reasonable houserule to allow defense dice, but by the RAW I'm afraid that weapon foci are just plain weak sauce for a Magician when you factor in their cost-- the big advantage, really, is how well they stack with pretty much everything. As far as Shadowrun history goes, I hear ya loud and clear and would like to emphasize that nobody really needs to convince me of anything thematically. It's not even really the weapon focus's fault, per se-- being able to run around with a nice damage code that you can take to the astral and ignores ItNW meatside is a pretty sweet bonus, on paper. But well, weapon foci are melee only, and close combat is a tricky business under the SR4 rules even before you factor in that some Spirit types can fly or at least run around while jacked up on the Movement power-- and honestly, most Spirits are better off blasting you rather than hitting you anyway. Still, they can be effective if you pick your spots and remember that not everything warrants a mana bolt. It just loses its shine a bit when you look at what you could have done with the same points, that's all.
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