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Pollux710
Me again, third post in a day. Ok so the group I am gaming with are a relatively veteran bunch as it pertains to epic gaming, such as Dungeons and Dragons and Exalted, high fantasy, high magic, that kind of thing. Now we've run several campaigns together but I don't think that they're going to get SR like they've gotten other games, mainly because they're all used to medieval era technology. How can I shock them into thinking realistically? I'm thinking about using stuff like gas, toxins and electronics. Just looking for ideas to teach them during a run, not kill them and all.
Sixgun_Sage
Show them that the game is lethal, have them take a few premades and explain you are going to illustrate something about the style of this game. They won't believe it till they se it.
Pollux710
Thats actually a really good idea. Thanks.
Summerstorm
I would just show them with examples ingame... on NPC's.

Having someone die before their eyes because some sniper took him out (for some reason)... without having him reacting (First he falls, then you hear... NOTHING).

Hell... you could even make it an adventure hook.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (killerdbz @ Aug 3 2010, 09:33 AM) *
The runners had just taken a job by a yak outfit to retrieve a runaway. In the middle of them doing legwork they got a second job to find the girl by the girls parents. Less money but I wanted to see if anyone would treat it like it was a real situation and use some damn morals. Someone did.

After finding the girl, the group was deciding who to deliver her too. Most of the party wanted to deliver her to the Yak and reap the monetary reward. One player, a real honest to god white knight, wanted to bring her back to the parents and wave the fee(as a note it was also his first time playing Shadowrun or any PnP game for that matter). This shocked the hell out of everyone, both in and out of game. He was dead serious about it. When the team rose up to object, he picked up his dice, looked at me and said "I roll for initiative first if I am going to shoot them right?"

Everyone dropped there arguments and took the girl to the drop off point with the parents. After putting her in the car and giving the cred back, the passenger window rolled down to reveal the Yak who hired them looking a bit upset. A pin drop would have sounded like a nuke, 100% distilled silence. Everyone was just staring blankly at me, then at the white knight, then at me. The look on the new players face was priceless. He learned the truth of the shadows that night.

That is how I taught my runners to do a background check on all their employers.

Pollux710
Word.
Madroxx
This is what I want to do. Wow.
Raiki
Sixgun- That's actually a phenomenal idea. I'm definitely going to do that before I start running my first game sometime later this year. Need to put the fear of Bob into the gun adept before the game starts.

Sephiroth- notworthy.gif




~R~
Sixgun_Sage
QUOTE (Raiki @ Oct 10 2010, 03:52 AM) *
Sixgun- That's actually a phenomenal idea. I'm definitely going to do that before I start running my first game sometime later this year. Need to put the fear of Bob into the gun adept before the game starts.

Sephiroth- notworthy.gif




~R~


We gun adepts are not by nature a fearful sort, good luck.
Raiki
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Oct 10 2010, 08:43 AM) *
We gun adepts are not by nature a fearful sort, good luck.


Thanks. Like the OP, my group is much more used to playing D&D, with a little bit of starwars 3e thrown in. They have the "We understand that fighting shouldn't always be our first plan, but Hit It With A Stick hasn't failed us yet" mindset. I don't think any of them have ever fled from a combat as long as we've been gaming together. They're much more likely to just tough it out and res the fallen party members later. I'm hoping to shock them into playing SR a bit differently. cyber.gif




~R~
Ramorta
QUOTE (Raiki @ Oct 10 2010, 02:42 PM) *
Thanks. Like the OP, my group is much more used to playing D&D, with a little bit of starwars 3e thrown in. They have the "We understand that fighting shouldn't always be our first plan, but Hit It With A Stick hasn't failed us yet" mindset. I don't think any of them have ever fled from a combat as long as we've been gaming together. They're much more likely to just tough it out and res the fallen party members later. I'm hoping to shock them into playing SR a bit differently. cyber.gif



A few things to point out to them:

1) Resurrection doesn't exist.
2) They are stealing from a corporation that has almost infinite resources. Be it money, personel, or magic.u
2b) The only thing stoping said corporation from making their life a living hell, is the cost benefit analysis.
3) Everyone sleeps sometime. Waking up with a cranial bomb is not fun.
KarmaInferno
"You are mice living in a house with a great many cats. You might be the most badass of the mice, but you're still just a mouse."



-k
SecGuard
QUOTE (Ramorta @ Oct 10 2010, 09:06 PM) *
A few things to point out to them:

1) Resurrection doesn't exist.
2) They are stealing from a corporation that has almost infinite resources. Be it money, personel, or magic.u
2b) The only thing stoping said corporation from making their life a living hell, is the cost benefit analysis.
3) Everyone sleeps sometime. Waking up with a cranial bomb is not fun.



All good and valid points, but they'd need backing up with some practical demonstrations.
tagz
I recommend a run to rescue the members of another, failed, run. Someone's teammates were all captured by a mega after they tried to get out guns blazing. They got pinned down with suppressive fire from 15+ corpsec, then came the gas grenades and mages levitating over cover with armor spells and stunbolts. Give them a whole list of the nasty that happened to the group. Then have a few corpsec show up at the meet, the Johnson that escaped has a RFID tag on the back of his boot. Demonstrate that screwing up can follow you anywhere.

After that fight, let them sit and think how to get around all that nasty that the other team couldn't handle. If they decide to go guns blazing, hit them with it just like you warned them, and maybe THEN have the captured team attack them because they have cranial bombs in them and don't have a choice.
AppliedCheese

I can think of two simple ways:

The Story Way:

Early, before the Mr. J. have the players test a cracked Star/KE AR training sim in an empty warehouse or such. The players retain all their skills, and their hacker/fixer friend has, for shits and giggles, cued up 8-10 Lawmen for them to "blast" during the test. See how many of them die in simulation.

The Blunt Way

If you have any munchinkinites (and at some point, everybody has a little bit of munchkinite in them) show the following test with the actual dice rolls:

The Mook Test

Heroic:

Q: 4 Mooks (goblins/orcs or what not) attack you. What is the worst they can likely do the party in one round if you botched it up?
A: Maybe enough to inconvenience the squishiest of our friends before the next round where we show up and kick their ASS!

SR:

Q: 4 street thugs with cheap pistols and a sawed off shotgun decide you're on their turf. If everything goes wrong, whats the worst they can do in one round?
A: Someone is either dead or needs a trip to the hospital. Quite possibly plural.

Now tell them to imagine if those were, instead of street thugs, professional security personnel with submachineguns, body armor, hacker support, drones, and 40 buddies on the way in 5 minutes?



Raiki
QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Oct 11 2010, 02:33 AM) *
SR:

Q: 4 street thugs with cheap pistols and a sawed off shotgun decide you're on their turf. If everything goes wrong, whats the worst they can do in one round?
A: Someone is either dead or needs a trip to the hospital. Quite possibly plural.


Yeah, I got this lesson drilled in hard on my first run. As the face, it turns out that a shotgun blast to the chest just ruined my fragging night. I got off better than the rigger though. He didn't bother to take cover when the sniper started shooting...




~R~
IKerensky
Kill them...

... then adjust your gamemastering and retry until you dont manage to hurt them.

Then re-adjust until you manage to put half of them out cold. Then you got the choice to either keep it that way or just go back to killing them all wink.gif

More seriously, SR4 have the matrix wich is as good as the old Startrek Holodeck in changing a massive slaughter into a live warmup training session.

Experiment and dont be affraid of consequence, you could always avoid them, you are the GM.
Neraph
QUOTE (Ramorta @ Oct 10 2010, 02:06 PM) *
3) Everyone sleeps sometime. Waking up with a cranial bomb is not fun.

Not true. Crank is very useful for that. So is Nutrition, for other "needs." Healthy Glow and Fashion can help make you look like you haven't not slept since you Awakened.
Raiki
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 11 2010, 12:16 PM) *
Not true. Crank is very useful for that. So is Nutrition, for other "needs." Healthy Glow and Fashion can help make you look like you haven't not slept since you Awakened.



Yeah, except for the fact that when you crash from Crank, you sleep for even longer. And don't even get me started on the stim spell. Yeah, you can sustain or quicken that forever...right up until someone counterspells it or you walk through a mana barrier. You'd be dead before you started to fall over. biggrin.gif





~R~
Neraph
QUOTE (Raiki @ Oct 11 2010, 02:53 PM) *
Yeah, except for the fact that when you crash from Crank, you sleep for even longer. And don't even get me started on the stim spell. Yeah, you can sustain or quicken that forever...right up until someone counterspells it or you walk through a mana barrier. You'd be dead before you started to fall over. biggrin.gif





~R~

Wrong spell. Crank doesn't do that - Stim does, and it's worse.

Crank is sleep, for all intents and purposes.

Read your grimoire.
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Pollux710 @ Oct 9 2010, 07:39 PM) *
Just looking for ideas to teach them during a run, not kill them and all.


Very, very carefully explain to them the rules regarding usage of Edge. And make sure they have at least 3 points in it.

Also, a good cake run to start things off should help them understand just how dangerous a punk with a shotgun can be. If need be, fudge a die roll or two to make sure that one or two shells connect with a player - particularly if they are hesitant to go on full-defense.
Kruger
I've taken to running "prequel" scenarios that use one or two players' PCs as the "stars" and pre-mades for everyone else.. It accomplishes two things. Gives everybody's character a back story and creates a believable team dynamic if done right, and gives everyone a chance to adjust to the mechanics while playing an "expendable" character. I think having at least two of their prequel characters die and another get badly wounded in my Twilight 2013 campaign certainly gave the players a healthy respect for the lethality of the combat system and the tone of the game I was going to run.

Obviously the down side is that it's time consuming for the GM, and delays the start of the campaign. Of course, as long as everyone is having fun, this isn't a downside at all.
Raiki
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 11 2010, 10:50 PM) *
Wrong spell. Crank doesn't do that - Stim does, and it's worse.

Crank is sleep, for all intents and purposes.

Read your grimoire.



Ahh, fair enough. You said "Crank" and because of the RL connotations and the fact that I haven't quite memorized the books yet, I thought Long Haul, the drug that does the same thing as the Stim spell.

Well, you can't be right all the time I suppose. 'at'll teach me to check my sources before I post.




~R~
Blade
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 10 2010, 10:15 PM) *
"You are mice living in a house with a great many cats. You might be the most badass of the mice, but you're still just a mouse."


I like this, it reminds me of something I've had a NPC tell a PC:
"Runners are the pawns in the chess game of the powerful. They're nobodies and most will be sent to their death. If you're very lucky, you'll get to be a queen. It's great, you're more powerful and more valuable. But you still aren't the one playing the game...

And those who do cheat anyway."
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Kruger @ Oct 11 2010, 11:15 PM) *
I've taken to running "prequel" scenarios that use one or two players' PCs as the "stars" and pre-mades for everyone else.. It accomplishes two things. Gives everybody's character a back story and creates a believable team dynamic if done right, and gives everyone a chance to adjust to the mechanics while playing an "expendable" character. I think having at least two of their prequel characters die and another get badly wounded in my Twilight 2013 campaign certainly gave the players a healthy respect for the lethality of the combat system and the tone of the game I was going to run.

Obviously the down side is that it's time consuming for the GM, and delays the start of the campaign. Of course, as long as everyone is having fun, this isn't a downside at all.


I highly recommend this if you have the time/energy to swing it.

First time players won't really know how to build their character quite right. It's a balancing act, so you can show them where they're falling short or might have misunderstood how something works (or how useful something might be.)
Though, while I love putting new players through the ringer until they're out of ammo, trapped in a squat and trying to fight off ghouls with found weapons, really, that's only going to skew their builds to heavy combat.

Not that there's anything wrong with a heavy combat game, so long as the players know how to handle a good run and gun.
Prime Mover
How do you teach a player combat in a new game.

After char creation run a quick combat involving just the pc's.
Let combat run till last man standing. This is a good opportunity to get the rules down without bogging down the prepared game.
Everyone gets the opportunity to play with there new toys without fear of real death or destruction.
Raiki
I think I've actually got the plan down for my first session.

Since I have a few months before I'm going to run, I'm going to make up NPCs similar, but not identical, to the PCs. When the session starts, I'm going to distribute the NPC's character sheets to the corresponding players, and then drop them into a 2/3 complete run.

They're going to start right where the drek hits the fan. They've got the pay data, the corpsec is right on their tail, outnumbering them 3 to 1. Their rigger is 3 blocks away, parked with the escape van, but the area is blanketed with jamming devices so they might not be able to contact him. Go.


I'll tie this original (most likely failed) run into the main arc of the first few actual runs. Should give them a pretty good idea of what happens when you frack up a run, without anyone getting pissy about losing their character.





~R~
Apathy
One of the things about SR is that it has a lot of viable options for capturing your characters instead of killing them. Stick-n-Shock ammo, stunballs, and gas grenades are all effective, and in many cases more effective then their lethal counterparts. Also, within a corp facility there's a good chance that security will be encouraged to use non-lethal means in order to minimize collateral damage and give the corp someone to question after. This means that when the PCs do something stupid you can spank them without having to resort to a total player kill.

PC: We run in and shoot anyone that moves!
GM: Are you sure you want to do that?
PC: We're the deadliest team in the sprawl! No one can stop us!
[Clever use of tactics and superior resources by the GM ensures. Many dice roll...]
GM: Your characters wake up in a cell chained to the floor with splitting headaches and difficulty focusing. A corp suit faces you from the other side of an armored window. "Congratulations runners! You are now the property of Saeder-Krupp until you've worked off your debt to the company. We have a job we need you to do... "
Neraph
I did that, but I had a Tir Ghost squad (modified slightly - their weapons had Capsule Rounds with Slab in them) that hit the team after they went home "triumphantly" and started resting. Got two doing their morning workouts and one in the bath. Wasn't even fair.

I took blood samples, had full body clones made to give the corp the bodies the corp wanted (ended up ruining a couple of player's days - they were SINners and were now legally dead), and the Johnson that caught them saved a sample of blood from everyone on his own as collateral. He was using them as his own personal strike team through the use of the Dream spell cast ritually on them with their blood samples.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 12 2010, 03:38 PM) *
One of the things about SR is that it has a lot of viable options for capturing your characters instead of killing them. Stick-n-Shock ammo, stunballs, and gas grenades are all effective, and in many cases more effective then their lethal counterparts. Also, within a corp facility there's a good chance that security will be encouraged to use non-lethal means in order to minimize collateral damage and give the corp someone to question after. This means that when the PCs do something stupid you can spank them without having to resort to a total player kill.

PC: We run in and shoot anyone that moves!
GM: Are you sure you want to do that?
PC: We're the deadliest team in the sprawl! No one can stop us!
[Clever use of tactics and superior resources by the GM ensures. Many dice roll...]
GM: Your characters wake up in a cell chained to the floor with splitting headaches and difficulty focusing. A corp suit faces you from the other side of an armored window. "Congratulations runners! You are now the property of Saeder-Krupp until you've worked off your debt to the company. We have a job we need you to do... "


All that does is teach "Don't mess with dragons."
sabs
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 13 2010, 03:04 PM) *
All that does is teach "Don't mess with dragons."


^Saeder-Krupp^Horizon

Would that work better for you?
Dwight
QUOTE (Pollux710 @ Oct 9 2010, 07:39 PM) *
Me again, third post in a day. Ok so the group I am gaming with are a relatively veteran bunch as it pertains to epic gaming, such as Dungeons and Dragons and Exalted, high fantasy, high magic, that kind of thing. Now we've run several campaigns together but I don't think that they're going to get SR like they've gotten other games, mainly because they're all used to medieval era technology. How can I shock them into thinking realistically? I'm thinking about using stuff like gas, toxins and electronics. Just looking for ideas to teach them during a run, not kill them and all.

Some of them will need to experience it to believe it. I've experienced this myself with a player that was a longtime Shadowrun player when I introduced him to a different system that is more towards human power range (AKA "gritty"). I advised him "don't stand face to face with other characters and blast away, you need to get behind cover". A number of times. I even rattled off the rules before hand. But he didn't believe me, he just didn't get it....till his character was standing out in the open and getting shot at and then asked what he rolled to dodge. "As I said before, nothing. They just need one success in their pool to hit you and every success beyond that means even more damage." "*slack jawed*Oh. This game is brutal." *face palm*

Of course Hand of God means their character need not die. As a bonus they learn even more of the rules. wink.gif

So it isn't necessary to play with disposable characters. However disposable characters is good in that it'll facilitate the players that DO listen to you but then over react to better find the safe-not safe line, least you end up with the perpetual bane of Shadowrun, players turtling on you.
Neraph
QUOTE (Dwight @ Oct 13 2010, 10:41 AM) *
But he didn't believe me, he just didn't get it....till his character was standing out in the open and getting shot at and then asked what he rolled to dodge. "As I said before, nothing.

Did he get attacked multiple times before you removed his whole dicepool or did you just feel like removing his whole dicepool because he was standing in the open?
Dwight
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 13 2010, 10:08 AM) *
Did he get attacked multiple times before you removed his whole dicepool or did you just feel like removing his whole dicepool because he was standing in the open?


"...when I introduced him to a different system that is more towards human power range (AKA "gritty"). "

It wasn't Shadowrun's mechanics. You are a target to be shot at. Action resolution is simultaneous. If you are standing there focusing on blasting away at someone you make a pretty good, although dangerous target yourself.

The point is that he figured himself a badass <system X> player so he just waved off warnings, because he [thought he] knew what he was doing. Because <system X> is the game of the baddest asses, right? Everyone else are wimps, it's the Real thing! Once you know one game you know them all. Or whatever it is that's going on that caused him to not believe me and fail to heed my rules explanations.


P.S. Incidentally the outcome was both of the PCs that were shooting at each other were on the ground unconscious, and slowly bleeding out.
Neraph
Oh, I thought you were referencing the change between D&D and SR. SR is waaay more "human power range (AKA "gritty")" than D&D.
Dwight
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 13 2010, 11:14 AM) *
Oh, I thought you were referencing the change between D&D and SR. SR is waaay more "human power range (AKA "gritty")" than D&D.

At lower levels in D&D? Especially pre-4e? SR isn't even particularly so overall, it's quite over-the-top, too. When you get heavily gamed Awakened PCs involved, OMG. But I get the distinct impression that the majority of people playing Shadowrun see it at the end of the range rather somewhere along the range. So it stands to reason you will find plenty of people whose knowledge is limited to some other set that doesn't include Shadowrun.
AppliedCheese
Of course, it should be noted that one of the reasons SR is so lethal that most people are unnaturally accurate to begin with.

As to my above statement: A "normal army guy with a normal assault rifle in a normal firefight, no gadgets, not AIMing" (Agi 3, Auto 3) can hit a man sized target in cover at 400m (extreme range) 1/3 of the time under SR rules. Granted, a living normal target (reaction three), reduces that to a mere 10% of the time. That would be an impressive level of combat marksmanship for any army to reach.

Add in the joy of the smart gun and he will hit the target in cover at 500m 70% of the time, and even with human reaction built in, will still hit 54% of the time.

Obviously once you add in even the most basic weapon mods and transhuman elements, and reduce that range to "across the hotel lobby", firefights are going to consist of long hammering bursts, and dead people.





Dwight
Longer ranges outcomes range from a bit oddball to strange, especially if you go light on the situational modifiers. There are a number of reasons, part of it has to do with the stock range modifiers. Another part of it has to do with the 1 action = 1 shot (linked with the decision to go with literal, explicit ammo counting). If the model was a little more abstract you'd get more wiggle room for more things to fit in, that's just the nature of how modeling works.

But yeah, offense is over-the-top, too, when you really tweak it. Thus you can end up in the tweak race to keep up with the opposition.
Ramorta
I think your also forgetting to add in full defense. Average would be 3 dice (With an additional +2 for a specalization in ranged dodge, which would make sense for most armys) Once you take that into consideration things balance out a lot better.
Myrgan
Yeah but would you even notice been fire at from 500m? I'd say a perception test is in order here to do any kind of defense.
AppliedCheese
Assuming the target is in full defense with dodge 3, the stats come out as follows for our theoretical snap shooting "basic grunt" at extreme range into partial cover:

No gear, no aim: 3%

No gear, aiming (one action) : 7%

Smartlink, not aiming: 13 %

Smartlink, aiming: My brain breaks with too many factorials. SWAG 27%.



Neraph
QUOTE (Dwight @ Oct 13 2010, 11:46 AM) *
At lower levels in D&D? Especially pre-4e? SR isn't even particularly so overall, it's quite over-the-top, too. When you get heavily gamed Awakened PCs involved, OMG. But I get the distinct impression that the majority of people playing Shadowrun see it at the end of the range rather somewhere along the range. So it stands to reason you will find plenty of people whose knowledge is limited to some other set that doesn't include Shadowrun.

Yes. The table I'm at has things like 32+ AC at level 1, the ability to dish out 100+ dmg at level 1, and 3rd level spells at level 1 (albeit on different characters, all in 3.5 Ed though). So yeah, I figured you were showing the differences between D&D and SR.
Dwight
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 13 2010, 10:17 PM) *
3rd level spells at level 1

Ummmm, WTF? Care to explain exactly how that is happening? I don't doubt there is something somewhere published for doing this but that sounds like something beyond even standard Gestalt characters (admittedly I've never played with Gestalt characters, I'm just going off descriptions I've been given). Certainly not something you are going to roll out of bog standard 3.5e core, which is what I was referring to. But hey, we could toss this in the mix, too, if you'd like. wink.gif

Yay power creep!
Neraph
Note I said a 3rd level spell, not a specific 3rd level spell.

1st level human wizard or sorcerer. Precocious Apprentice, Any Metamagic Feat, and Sanctum Spell. PA gives you one 2nd level spell, the Metamagic is a prerequisit for Sanctum Spell, which makes all spells cast in your sanctum considered 1 level higher.

Alternatively, you can do this with an Illumine (or whatever - RoD) wizard/sorcerer with Precocious Apprentice, some racial feat (I dunno), a Flaw to gain another feat, and that second feat some bigger version of the Illumine's racial feat - the end result is the same. I don't like Illumines, so I don't remember exactly how that one went, although I know it does.

EDIT: It's no Fireball or Lightningbolt, but it's still a 3rd level spell, which qualifies you for certain Prestige classes.

EDIT EDIT: Other races than human can use option #1 so long as flaws are allowed.
Dwight
QUOTE
Note I said a 3rd level spell, not a specific 3rd level spell.


Yeah, that's what I thought. If you'd been honest you'd say "a single 2nd level spell that is treated as a 3rd level spell for purposes of resisting, dispelling, and such (effectively a +5% chance of having it stick) when in a very specific 10ft radius location, but is treated as a 1st level spell (-5% instead, as above) everywhere else". Which is to say "meh", especially under most play conditions as it takes 3 months to change the location. It's primarily used as an NPC feat unless your players spend a lot of time in one place (or if your table agrees it can apply to a moving wagon or a ship's cabin or something like that, and even then...).

Not only is it not a lightning bolt or fireball, it's not even fully a 3rd level spell in a power sense.
Marcus
After running around in the top of Hight Fantasy its harder to refocus, to move away from the epic story, and to tell the story of the individual(s).
So I'd recommend focusing on contacts, establishing a personal level of relationship. Lifestyle, what does a soy processor look like? Honey Bees are extinct, what does that mean? Smaller setting details, The waiter at the restaurant, is doing it until their career as a sim-star(let) takes off. The courier riding his/her Bike. How each little piece of the puzzle fit together to make a whole. At heart Shadowrun, is about relationships making those attachments as real as possible carries the game. I remember when we first played the Grab from the missions. I was just devastated when the girl was killed. We accomplished the mission perfectly and still tragedy struck. Thats the level of dark thats important and the personal connect that needs to be carried through.
Neraph
QUOTE (Dwight @ Oct 14 2010, 07:02 AM) *
Yeah, that's what I thought. If you'd been honest you'd say "a single 2nd level spell that is treated as a 3rd level spell for purposes of resisting, dispelling, and such (effectively a +5% chance of having it stick) when in a very specific 10ft radius location, but is treated as a 1st level spell (-5% instead, as above) everywhere else". Which is to say "meh", especially under most play conditions as it takes 3 months to change the location. It's primarily used as an NPC feat unless your players spend a lot of time in one place (or if your table agrees it can apply to a moving wagon or a ship's cabin or something like that, and even then...).

Not only is it not a lightning bolt or fireball, it's not even fully a 3rd level spell in a power sense.

You, sir, are quite, quite wrong. It is a 3rd level spell, exactly like how a Heightened Ray of Frost that takes up a 3rd level slot is a 3rd level spell. Besides, that Precocious Apprentice feat actually does give you a second level spell - so at the very least it's a 2nd, not a third. Sanctum Spell is like a conditional Heighten, as is the Sigil feat for Illumines.

And it does qualify as "Being able to cast 3rd level spells" for qualifying for Prestige Classes, so that definately means it is "fully a 3rd level spell in a power sense."
Dwight
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 14 2010, 07:49 AM) *
It is a 3rd level spell, exactly like how a Heightened Ray of Frost that takes up a 3rd level slot is a 3rd level spell.


Which is to say it's actually a 2nd level spell in all aspects except the resistance/saving roll (or, if you are crossing one of those relatively rare "no spells below this level allowed" situations). It is no where near the overall power of actual 3rd level spells, 2nd to 3rd tends to be a large leap, relatively speaking. It is quite inferior [in the general sense]. EDIT: Even more-so when you remember that it all drops to 1st level when the caster steps outside that 10' radius.

I'm quite on the money on this, you are pulling out extremely shaky, cherry picking metrics.


EDIT: Anyway, getting away from the original topic here. I don't much care if you are still deluded at this point, so don't expect any further response from me on this side topic. ((Yeah, I guess this means you can win by posting something. Be sure to enjoy it! nyahnyah.gif ))
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