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Black Mamba
As the Karma Build system presented in Runners Companion is based of an attribute improvement multiplier of three, I wanted to know if the suggested 750 points was going to be increased to reflect the new multiplier of five.
Tymire
Actually that is based off the x5. It wasn't caught in the printing. They are approx equal, when comparing build point to karma, with karma gen having typically more rounded characters since you typically don't min/max so much due to scaling cost differences.
Minchandre
QUOTE (Tymire @ Oct 11 2010, 09:44 PM) *
Actually that is based off the x5. It wasn't caught in the printing. They are approx equal, when comparing build point to karma, with karma gen having typically more rounded characters since you typically don't min/max so much due to scaling cost differences.


You can min-max plenty in karma build.

I've found that, S12 B15 trolls aside, karma build tends to produce stronger characters than the equivalent BP - often by 20-50 BP points (found by building a character at 750 karma, then again in BP to see how much in cost)
Nifft
QUOTE (Minchandre @ Oct 12 2010, 02:09 AM) *
You can min-max plenty in karma build.

I've found that, S12 B15 trolls aside, karma build tends to produce stronger characters than the equivalent BP - often by 20-50 BP points (found by building a character at 750 karma, then again in BP to see how much in cost)
Yeah, it's just that you min-max differently when using Karma.

Fewer instances of Power Foci, I'd imagine.
Mäx
QUOTE (Nifft @ Oct 12 2010, 08:11 AM) *
Fewer instances of Power Foci, I'd imagine.

Why would think that, power foci 4 is still just as good an investment as it is in BP-gen
Glyph
They cost more to bind, I think he means.

Karmagen both discourages min-maxing, and doesn't. It discourages it, because of the sliding scale. For the cost of a skill of 4, you can get a skill of 3 and a skill of 4. Rather than a flat cost, lower-end things are cheaper.

It doesn't discourage it, because high skills, Attributes, etc. still give a big tangible advantage in the game. So even though they cost more, you still wind up getting them. And even if you do so, and go so far as to get approximately the same number of knowledge skills that you would get using build points, you will still have points left over - which you can spend to get a few extra low-rated skills.

The nice thing about karmagen is that it does give more of a break to generalists. If you don't go for high skills or Attributes, you will wind up able to afford a lot more stuff than you would under build points (as opposed to specialists, who will only be able to afford a little bit more stuff than under build points).
Tymire
What it does is get rid of that nagging feeling you have when you are trying to build a character in BP when thinking hmmm I could raise a skill from 3 to 4 or I could raise one from 1-2 or 0-1 which should I do? Considering long term you just saved 10 karma it's not even really a question. So you will end up with characters that will typically be a bit more realistic with karma gen, at least in my opinion.
sabs
Except you end up with characters with very few knowledge skills in Karma Gen
Mäx
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 12 2010, 04:57 PM) *
Except you end up with characters with very few knowledge skills in Karma Gen

I don't know about that, in original karmagen i usually didn't fell at all bad for using 100+ karma for knowledge skill ending up with far more of them then a typical BP-gen character.
With the errata, unless you raise the amount of karma, i think you should give same amount of knowledge skills as in BP-gen.
Myrgan
QUOTE (Tymire @ Oct 12 2010, 05:44 AM) *
Actually that is based off the x5. It wasn't caught in the printing.

Come again? The Karma Character Generation Table on page 41 says "Improving an attribute by 1: New rating x 3". The KarmaGen example on page 43 uses new attribute rating x 3. Runners Companion is copyright 2008, SR4A is copyright 2009. Are you saying the 750 starting karma is meant for attribute x5 or works for attribute x5 or what?
Mäx
QUOTE (Myrgan @ Oct 12 2010, 06:33 PM) *
Come again? The Karma Character Generation Table on page 41 says "Improving an attribute by 1: New rating x 3". The KarmaGen example on page 43 uses new attribute rating x 3. Runners Companion is copyright 2008, SR4A is copyright 2009. Are you saying the 750 starting karma is meant for attribute x5 or works for attribute x5 or what?

Writer of karmagen has stated that it was meant for attributex5 cost as that was a change that was allready desided back then.
Myrgan
Ah, thx. Funny they didn't change it in errata v.1.8, though.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 12 2010, 09:57 AM) *
Except you end up with characters with very few knowledge skills in Karma Gen



Yeah I still give free KS with Karma Gen. I also have metahumans pay for their attributes pre-modifiers.
sabs
I also like making people pay BP cost in karma for the races.
cndblank
You stop charging nearly double on Specializations and any skill rating four or under and you get a stronger well rounded character even if the primary stats and skills are actually going to average lower.

And a well rounded character is one way of saying a non one trick pony character.

Specializations really help to define a character but I can never afford them for a BP character.
As a GM, the better you understand how the player see the character and where he wants the character to go, the better can involve the PC in the game.

I do wish they would keep the free knowledge and language skills. They also help to define the character.


Still the idea was to speed the character creation process and for experienced player, the BP system actually take more time than the karma system.

With Karma you buy what you think the PC should have. Period.

With BP you buy the big ticket items you know the PC will need to survive and then have to skimp on the rest.
I spend a lot more time trying to create a viable non one trick pony BP gen PC than a Karma gen PC.


BP gen characters are just not as developed as Karma gen characters.

Face it BP should have been an optional rule from the beginning.



Udoshi
QUOTE (Myrgan @ Oct 12 2010, 10:33 AM) *
Come again? The Karma Character Generation Table on page 41 says "Improving an attribute by 1: New rating x 3". The KarmaGen example on page 43 uses new attribute rating x 3. Runners Companion is copyright 2008, SR4A is copyright 2009. Are you saying the 750 starting karma is meant for attribute x5 or works for attribute x5 or what?



Basically, The devs fucked up, and made/balanced karmagen for 4th Anniversary edition, and printed it with 4th's costs.

Here's the errata for RC's karmagen, and how it was -supposed- to work, including a fixed example.

As written, If you do the math, rating x3 for attributes is basically like giving a bp-gen character half off their stats and specializations in terms of power. And their race is free. Yeah, its pretty unbalanced.
Glyph
I have found that karmagen doesn't really force you to make characters that are not min-maxed. Mainly because even the revised version flat out gives you more points than you get with build points. What it does is make the non-optimized characters a bit more viable, because they can get way more stuff than they can in build points.

To give you an example: character A is creating a street samurai, and wants to be good at his primary role of ranged combat. So he takes pistols: 6 with a specialization in semi-automatics, and automatics: 4 with a specialization in assault rifles. He has spent 70 karma on this. Character B is more of a generalist. He takes the firearms skill group at 2, the athletics skill group at 1, unarmed combat: 2, first aid: 2, infiltration: 2, armorer: 2, and pilot ground vehicle: 2. He has also spent 70 karma on this. Character A would have had to spend 44 build points for those skills in the build point system. Character B would have had to spend 70 build points for those skills in the build point system.
Karoline
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 12 2010, 05:56 PM) *
I have found that karmagen doesn't really force you to make characters that are not min-maxed. Mainly because even the revised version flat out gives you more points than you get with build points. What it does is make the non-optimized characters a bit more viable, because they can get way more stuff than they can in build points.

I think that is what most people mean when they say it discourages min-maxing. Yes, you can certainly still do it, but it costs you relatively more. In BP you gave up 3 skills at a 2 to get 1 skill at a 6. In Karmagen you give up 5 skills at 2, and 1 skill at 1.

@whoever said they do stats pre race:
You really don't want to do that, since races don't cost anything in karmagen. That is specifically offset by the fact that they have to pay more for their stats.
Glyph
Metatypes pay their build point cost in karma post-errata. But getting their Attribute boosts after buying the Attribute gives them a huge boost. A troll buying a Strength of 9 would pay 150 karma under standard karmagen, but only 70 karma if using that house rule.

On the min-maxing, that's what I meant when I said it both discouraged it, and didn't discourage it. On the one hand, getting a skill of 6 has more of an opportunity cost. On the other hand, a skill of 6 is still a component of a high, effective dice pool. And expensive as it is, you can afford it and get some more skills to round you out. So it's not merely balancing a 6 versus five 2's and a 1. It's a 6 in your main skill, versus a bunch of extra low skills, when you have already bought the essential skills, and a few extras. If karmagen was less points, it might be a more serious sacrifice, but as it is, you can min-max a bit without really hurting.

And while I think karmagen has its share of flaws, I don't consider that one of them. I think it's great that the min-maxer can still min-max, and come out a little ahead, the generalist can have lots and lots of skills and be slightly more playable, and everyone is happy.
Yerameyahu
Honestly, isn't the race cost a bit low at Karma = BP? Surely it should be BP*2. *shrug*
Glyph
Not when you also factor in paying more to raise those augmented Attributes. And sure, they will come out ahead of a human, purely points-wise, but they were that way under the build point system, too.
Halinn
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 13 2010, 06:26 AM) *
Honestly, isn't the race cost a bit low at Karma = BP? Surely it should be BP*2. *shrug*


Only for orcs and possibly trolls. Dwarves and especially elves would be way overcosted at that point. Elves are actually worse than humans in any build system, unless you need that higher attribute cap.
Karoline
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 13 2010, 03:45 AM) *
Only for orcs and possibly trolls. Dwarves and especially elves would be way overcosted at that point. Elves are actually worse than humans in any build system, unless you need that higher attribute cap.

You obviously missed the giant thread about "Oh, humans are so much weaker than the other races, they need a boost to compensate."
sabs
Ork:
BP Cost: 20
Karma cost of starting stats: 80 - cost of lowering the max on 2 stats.
Dwarf:
BP Cost: 25
Karma cost of starting stats: 60 - cost of lowering the max on 1 stat
Elf:
BP Cost: 30
Karma cost of starting stats: 45
Troll:
BP Cost: 40
Karma cost of starting stats: 150 - cost of lowering max on 5 stats

That's of course not including low light or thermal vision or anything else they have.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 12 2010, 10:54 PM) *
I think that is what most people mean when they say it discourages min-maxing. Yes, you can certainly still do it, but it costs you relatively more. In BP you gave up 3 skills at a 2 to get 1 skill at a 6. In Karmagen you give up 5 skills at 2, and 1 skill at 1.

@whoever said they do stats pre race:
You really don't want to do that, since races don't cost anything in karmagen. That is specifically offset by the fact that they have to pay more for their stats.


As pointed out under the errata they do cost Karma. The issue is, if you take Troll to be a Troll you are crippled if it you pay for the full stat. Just to get an 8/8 strength and body you would spend 5+10+15+20+25+30+35+40=180x2 360 points. So close to half of your points just to get what would have cost 80 points or 1/5 of your build points. And Karma Gen still has a cap on what you can put into attributes, while it is higher for metahumans, it still is a hard limit for anyone playing to their strengths. Sure I can really get hit by the people who put 1 into strength, but I'd rather balance things around the norm instead of around the jerks trying to work the system. Still since I like kicking it old school, I consider the negatives attribute mods instead of just limits. So a troll has to get his charisma up to 3 just for it to be a 1, which balances it out a bit more even for the people trying to work the system.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 13 2010, 09:09 AM) *
Ork:
BP Cost: 20
Karma cost of starting stats: 80 - cost of lowering the max on 2 stats.
Dwarf:
BP Cost: 25
Karma cost of starting stats: 60 - cost of lowering the max on 1 stat
Elf:
BP Cost: 30
Karma cost of starting stats: 45
Troll:
BP Cost: 40
Karma cost of starting stats: 150 - cost of lowering max on 5 stats

That's of course not including low light or thermal vision or anything else they have.



Sure but just like the core SR rules it ignores the details on the value of the stats. Strength is virtually worthless as a stat, heck it isn't even that awesome for melee combatants with its 2 for 1 DV starting at 1 deal. Body is a solid stat, as the soak damage stat and wear armor for more soaking damage. But charisma and agility have the most skills tied to them, so chances are you will get the most use out of those two stats for everything but deckers and mages.(and charisma still kicks ass for shaman types)
sabs
Charisma, the uberstat
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 13 2010, 11:47 AM) *
Charisma, the uberstat


It kind of is. It lost some of its leg work appeal with the lame data search rules, but I don't know how others run games but charisma linked skills are probably the most used skills in our games. Next agility.
Yerameyahu
But Glyph, I thought you said you add the race stats *after* buying them up with Karma? It seems like a very cheap bonus.
Halinn
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 13 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Ork:
BP Cost: 20
Karma cost of starting stats: 80 - cost of lowering the max on 2 stats.
Dwarf:
BP Cost: 25
Karma cost of starting stats: 60 - cost of lowering the max on 1 stat
Elf:
BP Cost: 30
Karma cost of starting stats: 45
Troll:
BP Cost: 40
Karma cost of starting stats: 150 - cost of lowering max on 5 stats


Ork: BP 20
Karma: 70

Dwarf: BP 25
Karma: 45

Elf: BP 30
Karma: 35

Troll: BP 40
Karma: 140

Human: BP 0
Free edge point, i.e. worth 10 points. Given that, dwarves at 50 karma or elves at 60 would never be worth it.
Yerameyahu
That's a separate issue (race balance), see that Human Attribute Max thread.

I just think it's odd that the BP-to-Karma conversion is always 2x, except for races (which give tons of free stats). I can see Glyph's point about the timing of the bonus, but it's still free points either way (personally, I prefer adding the bonus after, so that Karma costs of attributes are pegged to the racial averages).
sabs
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 13 2010, 09:42 PM) *
Ork: BP 20
Karma: 70

Dwarf: BP 25
Karma: 45

Elf: BP 30
Karma: 35

Troll: BP 40
Karma: 140

Human: BP 0
Free edge point, i.e. worth 10 points. Given that, dwarves at 50 karma or elves at 60 would never be worth it.


Do I forgot they got the first point for free smile.gif
so yeah, shave off 10 points to everything I put.
Glyph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 13 2010, 12:52 PM) *
That's a separate issue (race balance), see that Human Attribute Max thread.

I just think it's odd that the BP-to-Karma conversion is always 2x, except for races (which give tons of free stats). I can see Glyph's point about the timing of the bonus, but it's still free points either way (personally, I prefer adding the bonus after, so that Karma costs of attributes are pegged to the racial averages).

Like I said, it's the difference between a troll paying 70 karma for a Strength of 9, or a troll paying 150 Karma for a Strength of 9. And as someone else pointed out, racial cost x 2 really bones elves and dwarves. Of all of the revisions that they could have done, the current one appeals to me more than any of the many house rules that were floating around before. In my experience, humans, at least mundane ones, can get somewhat better stats than they could under build points, and will have more skills than comparable metahuman builds, which will tend to spend a bit more on Attributes in addition to their metatype cost.
Yerameyahu
But if you *are* using the 'apply racial bonus after' rule, I don't see that Elves and Dwarves suck worse than in BP-gen. You're paying 50 or 60 Karma for the highest stat points free (plus 5 BP/10 Karma of natural vision, and several BP worth of pathogen/toxin resistance for the Dwarf).

I can see how *all* the metas get screwed if you apply the bonuses first, because they have to pay extra just to get up to their racial 'normal'.
Karoline
Personally I've done a ton of playing around with karmagen vs BP, and I've found that it works very well with the following rules:
1. Race cost in karma = Race cost in BP (So 30 karma for elf)
2. Stats cost 5x
3. Stats bought after racial bonuses
4. Magic/Edge not counted under the 'half karma on stats' limit

Unless you're building a troll with maxed out strength and body, this works very well.

I suppose you could apply the bonus to stats after buying them, but you should apply a penalty as well as a bonus, thus requiring trolls to put karma into their mental stats just to remain at 1.

Edit: Oh, and keeping it at 750 karma.
Glyph
Of those, only number 4 is a house rule - the others are pretty much how it works under the errata. And I'll add that I agree with number 4, since including special Attributes under the cap seems to single out awakened humans for gimping.
Yerameyahu
Why is that? They're not included in the half for BP, right? You'd think they could at least get that straight. smile.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 14 2010, 11:28 AM) *
Why is that? They're not included in the half for BP, right? You'd think they could at least get that straight. smile.gif

I think it is the trade-off for using RAW karma and RAW BP. It would only come in if the GM is allowing players to choose which chargen system to use. Or to allow the GM to encourage/discourage certain character types in his game.

So if he wants more humans/Awakened/Emerged in his game, he may choose to use BP. Or if he wants more cybered metas, he may use karma.
Thanee
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 12 2010, 11:36 PM) *
Here's the errata for RC's karmagen, and how it was -supposed- to work, including a fixed example.


And here is a properly working link: biggrin.gif

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry948067

Bye
Thanee
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