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Jesher
The basic idea is I'm trying to make an Adept infiltrator, min/maxed within reason (nothing obviously against archetype), and was wondering what penalties other GMs would impose on infiltration tests for characters using Ruthenium Polymer coated Light, Medium, or Heavy MilSpec. All weapons, and external gear (Smart Pouches, for example) would also have either Chameleon Coating or Ruthenium Polymer.

As stands now, the Adept would have Traceless Walk (not sure if that works when wearing soled foot equipment). May use Olfactory Camouflage, Thermal Damping (either Rating 3 or 6). Other MilSpec upgrades would be Hydraulic Jacks, Mobility Upgrade, and Strength Upgrade. These last three upgrades could either be a constant sound generator, or only on use (Running, Jumping, Lifting).

My hope was the MilSpec upgrades would only generate sound on use, Traceless Walk would cover normal sound generation and pressure plates, Olfactory Camouflage would... help with smell, Ruthenium/Chameleon would cover normal sight while Thermal Damping handled Thermographic Vision. Which leaves smell (unfortunately), taste, touch, electromagnetic disturbances, and magic.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Rotbart van Dainig
There are no penalties by RAW.

And of course, MilSpec will be designed to be silent, because attracting attention isn't a feature.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 15 2010, 09:07 AM) *
As stands now, the Adept would have Traceless Walk (not sure if that works when wearing soled foot equipment). May use Olfactory Camouflage, Thermal Damping (either Rating 3 or 6). Other MilSpec upgrades would be Hydraulic Jacks, Mobility Upgrade, and Strength Upgrade. These last three upgrades could either be a constant sound generator, or only on use (Running, Jumping, Lifting).


What is traceless walk's text? Does it prevent you from touching the ground? Otherwise I would assume pressure sensors would still work. You're also vulnerable to ultrasound detection.
Jesher
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 15 2010, 06:26 AM) *
What is traceless walk's text? Does it prevent you from touching the ground? Otherwise I would assume pressure sensors would still work. You're also vulnerable to ultrasound detection.


QUOTE (Street Magic p180)
... He makes no noise through contact with the floor (though movement may still cause other sounds), and any hearing-based Perception Tests to detect him suffer a -4 dice pool penalty. The adept will not trip ground-based motion or pressure sensors.


As for ultrasound, are there available defenses against that?
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 15 2010, 09:34 AM) *
As for ultrasound, are there available defenses against that?


I'm not aware of any.

A ground based motion sensor detects seismic activity.
Yerameyahu
Ultrasound can be detected by passive sensors, and presumably blocked by anti-sound magic. Are there 'seismic' sensors? AFAIK, motion sensors are ultrasound in SR4.

I'm always surprised when people say they're using milspec armor in the game, but whatever. smile.gif
Jesher
What's surprising about it? The fact that you're running around in blatantly illegal armor and, if spotted, will likely attract the attention of roughly everyone around?
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 15 2010, 10:21 AM) *
I'm always surprised when people say they're using milspec armor in the game, but whatever. smile.gif


Hey, don't touch the Mohawk... rotate.gif

The other thing to consider are the penalties to wearing it because of encumbrance and such. Another hazard is detection spells.
Neraph
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Oct 15 2010, 09:29 AM) *
Hey, don't touch the Mohawk... rotate.gif

The other thing to consider are the penalties to wearing it because of encumbrance and such. Another hazard is detection spells.

Body x3 means that with R3 Mobility Upgrade someone can wear Heavy Milspec with the helmet with a body of 4 and take no penalties, so encumberance is not an issue.
Summerstorm
What? It might be hard to get... but it really isn't THAT exotic. My players got themselves military armor too. (Well they got it sponsored because they had to run around in high radiation and with expected opposition... you better equip your dudes right, yes?... they got to keep the armor because it is still fitted to the one wearer... so no use to take it back... was part of the payment)

Back to the topic:
Well, i guess you COULD give a penalty or change the detection to a constant threshold (when there is no way to keep the damn thing quiet.) But overall, i think, it should be relative soundless (the strength/speed comes surely from some bimetallic or nanomaterial just working with you, not heavy hydraulics or electromotors). As long as they don't use the jacks they should be perfectly fine.
Neraph
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 15 2010, 10:44 AM) *
What? It might be hard to get... but it really isn't THAT exotic. My players got themselves military armor too. (Well they got it sponsored because they had to run around in high radiation and with expected opposition... you better equip your dudes right, yes?... they got to keep the armor because it is still fitted to the one wearer... so no use to take it back... was part of the payment)

Unless you houserule it the radiation would still kill them. Radiation as written (I've done a thread on this in times past) is deadly because there's nothing in the game that stops the secondary effects. It doesn't matter if you were able to reduce the damage from 24P down to 0, you still die from the secondary effects of Deadly Radiation Poisoning.

Lesser effects are not neccessarily deadly though.

EDIT: Found the thread.
Summerstorm
Umm... there is radiation shielding as an armor mod. There armors had that at maximum, and after they left the zone the mod got de-installed and their suits cleaned.
Jesher
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Oct 15 2010, 07:29 AM) *
Another hazard is detection spells.


How does an adept counter detection spells, besides a pixie mage in a Smart Pouch?

As far as I can tell, without including spells, my options are a combination of Arcane Arrester and Astral Hazing Metagenic Qualities, and the adept powers Magic Sense, Spell Resistance, and Cloak for active detection. I think I'm forgetting something, but can't figure out what.

Of those, Arcane Arrester combined with Spell Resistance seems the stealthiest, but costly as hell.
Karoline
Neither of those would effect detection spells at all, since they aren't opposed rolls and don't target the adept. The only real defense against them is Cloak.
Jesher
Cloak would work only on active Detection spells, which are opposed rolls according to 4A p205. I was assuming that before the adept had been noticed he would primarily be dealing with sustained/Quickened passive Detection spells. How, and if, those are counterable, though, I have no idea.
Karoline
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 15 2010, 05:56 PM) *
Cloak would work only on active Detection spells, which are opposed rolls according to 4A p205. I was assuming that before the adept had been noticed he would primarily be dealing with sustained/Quickened passive Detection spells. How, and if, those are counterable, though, I have no idea.

Well, if you're carrying around an astral dead zone that might do it, but you'd be messing with your own powers, so it isn't very viable. Magic as a whole is very difficult to counter.
Jesher
Hmm. I guess I'll have to just go with Magic Sense to detect the spells, and then hope they're using a Mage Sight Fiber Optic system that I can use the SR4 equivalent of silly string on. I couldn't find any mention of DVs for using Laser Sight or Laser Target Designators against Mage Sight, and don't particularly want to invest in an Ares Redline on the off chance that I happen to locate some mage optics... although I guess I could throw in a target designator or two with gecko grip and hope for the best GM-wise.
Neraph
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 15 2010, 12:11 PM) *
Umm... there is radiation shielding as an armor mod. There armors had that at maximum, and after they left the zone the mod got de-installed and their suits cleaned.

Read my thread I linked. It doesn't matter if you reduce the damage to 0 or not - you still take the secondary effects. I explain it in the thread I linked, which is why I linked it.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 15 2010, 07:21 AM) *
Ultrasound can be detected by passive sensors, and presumably blocked by anti-sound magic. Are there 'seismic' sensors? AFAIK, motion sensors are ultrasound in SR4.

I'm always surprised when people say they're using milspec armor in the game, but whatever. smile.gif

Its certainly not the most subtle stuff, if you plan on having to "go loud" at some point, and can actually get your hands on it, and somehow get it to the jobsite then sure, why not. Especially if you can can physical mask on it.
Jesher
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 17 2010, 05:57 AM) *
Its certainly not the most subtle stuff, if you plan on having to "go loud" at some point, and can actually get your hands on it, and somehow get it to the jobsite then sure, why not. Especially if you can can physical mask on it.


I guess I'm not clear on how unsubtle it actually is... I know it's illegal. I had thought it was just standard issue for military personnel, but that was corrected in this post in the UCAS Military Standard Issue thread. Apparently, the armor mods I mentioned earlier will be mainly silent, so that wouldn't affect subtlety. With the Ruthenium coating wouldn't it be both hard to see and, once seen, hard to tell exactly what it was? I mean, it would obviously be some Ruthenium/Chameleon armor, but I think it would be difficult to tell whether that was a Chameleon Suit, Light MilSpec, or some sort of naked metagenic ork with Dynamic Coloration.

My goal here wasn't Mohawking as much as just having some combat and infiltration capable armor for someone that has to allocate points away from Body to focus on Strength because Athletics is a Strength skill group for some reason (but that's another topic). You need Body 3 to wear a Chameleon Suit unencumbered, but a Body 2 could wear Light MilSpec (no helmet) with R3 Mobility at no encumbrance.

Edit: Said Gymnastics instead of Athletics
Aku
and chameleon'd armor, with no helmet/headcovering is going to be pointless. you're going to be a floating head.
Karoline
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 17 2010, 10:12 AM) *
and chameleon'd armor, with no helmet/headcovering is going to be pointless. you're going to be a floating head.

Still wouldn't be pointless, as there is less of you that you have to hide, and less of you for someone to see. People are much more likely to see something the size of a body than the size of a melon.
Aku
a melon thats floating at aprox. eye level though? i'm not buying it. And as a GM, i wouldn't allow full penalties for shooting at you either, because you can see its a person, you know aprox how big they're going to be.
Jesher
Haha, I hadn't actually planned on being a floating head, or having underdeveloped Body (2) as an infiltrator. Although I think a floating head would automatically win any surprise tests... so maybe I shouldn't rule that out.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 17 2010, 06:55 AM) *
I guess I'm not clear on how unsubtle it actually is... I know it's illegal. I had thought it was just standard issue for military personnel, but that was corrected in this post in the UCAS Military Standard Issue thread. Apparently, the armor mods I mentioned earlier will be mainly silent, so that wouldn't affect subtlety. With the Ruthenium coating wouldn't it be both hard to see and, once seen, hard to tell exactly what it was? I mean, it would obviously be some Ruthenium/Chameleon armor, but I think it would be difficult to tell whether that was a Chameleon Suit, Light MilSpec, or some sort of naked metagenic ork with Dynamic Coloration.

My goal here wasn't Mohawking as much as just having some combat and infiltration capable armor for someone that has to allocate points away from Body to focus on Strength because Athletics is a Strength skill group for some reason (but that's another topic). You need Body 3 to wear a Chameleon Suit unencumbered, but a Body 2 could wear Light MilSpec (no helmet) with R3 Mobility at no encumbrance.

Edit: Said Gymnastics instead of Athletics


I'm not saying its any harder to hide behind corners or anything, but makes it almost impossible to hide in plain sight. Depending on the type of infiltration you go for, this may or may not be a problem. I mean if you get R6ish concealment from a spirit while you're at it, you're virtually invisible in most meaningful ways, especially if you have a decent stealth skill. But most of my groups best infiltrations were done by looking like we were in fact supposed to be there, and with armor like that, its very very hard, unless you're infiltrating a very high security installation who's guards just 'happen' to wear armor that looks like yours.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 17 2010, 07:31 AM) *
Haha, I hadn't actually planned on being a floating head, or having underdeveloped Body (2) as an infiltrator. Although I think a floating head would automatically win any surprise tests... so maybe I shouldn't rule that out.

I may have to agree with that bit about surprise tests, I know I'd spend a second going "WTF?".
Jesher
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 17 2010, 07:32 AM) *
I'm not saying its any harder to hide behind corners or anything, but makes it almost impossible to hide in plain sight. Depending on the type of infiltration you go for, this may or may not be a problem. I mean if you get R6ish concealment from a spirit while you're at it, you're virtually invisible in most meaningful ways, especially if you have a decent stealth skill. But most of my groups best infiltrations were done by looking like we were in fact supposed to be there, and with armor like that, its very very hard, unless you're infiltrating a very high security installation who's guards just 'happen' to wear armor that looks like yours.


Oh, that's an excellent point. I was viewing infiltration as "don't get seen" and neglecting "seen but not noticed". Light MilSpec might be able to pass for security armor (assuming Ruthenium could be programmed to display a static image, and likely requiring a Disguise test), allowing you to pretend to be a guard... but any form of out-in-the-open infilitration in MilSpec would be entirely luck/GM-kindness.
oinopion
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 17 2010, 04:12 PM) *
and chameleon'd armor, with no helmet/headcovering is going to be pointless. you're going to be a floating head.

I always assumed cham. suit included a hood, so probably you could just have that with your armor.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 17 2010, 11:31 AM) *
Haha, I hadn't actually planned on being a floating head, or having underdeveloped Body (2) as an infiltrator. Although I think a floating head would automatically win any surprise tests... so maybe I shouldn't rule that out.


That's why we've house-ruled STR as the attribute to wear armor with no penalty. For once, it doesn't make any sense that someone with BOD 6 and STR 1 can wear a heavy armor just because he/she is tough. For second, it prevents munchkinism among players turning STR a dump stat for anyone who is not a melee fighter.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 17 2010, 11:12 AM) *
and chameleon'd armor, with no helmet/headcovering is going to be pointless. you're going to be a floating head.


Only milspec armor and full body suits may have ruthenium coating reliably. This means any swat/military armor and the chameleon suit and the camouflage suit. Every other armor is usually a vest or a combination of vest/pants that doesn't coiver the entire body.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Jesher @ Oct 17 2010, 07:58 AM) *
Oh, that's an excellent point. I was viewing infiltration as "don't get seen" and neglecting "seen but not noticed". Light MilSpec might be able to pass for security armor (assuming Ruthenium could be programmed to display a static image, and likely requiring a Disguise test), allowing you to pretend to be a guard... but any form of out-in-the-open infilitration in MilSpec would be entirely luck/GM-kindness.

That was all I was saying. Not saying you can't hide while wearing it, you have to do so where no one is looking.
KarmaInferno
It's not necessarily that runners NEVER use the MilSpec stuff.

It's just in a run, often when you have to "go loud" it means something went wrong.

And wearing MilSpec armor is certainly "going loud".

In any case, "going loud" also means you are on a clock. As soon as you are spotted it's only a matter of time before a hammer gets dropped on your head.



-k
Angelone
Helmets don't count towards encumbrance when wearing them, so you don't have to be a floating head.
Neraph
QUOTE (Angelone @ Oct 17 2010, 10:31 AM) *
Helmets don't count towards encumbrance when wearing them...

Where do you get that impression?
Angelone
The armor and encumbrance rules in the main book which I seem to have misread. It says helmets modify the ratings and doesn't count as stacked armor. I took that as a helmet was like the PPP armor.
Jesher
Doesn't PPP also add to encumbrance?

Edit: Er, not stacked, but since it modifies the armor rating of existing armor then you compare the final rating vs Body x2.
Angelone
PPP does not add to encumbrance.
Jesher
QUOTE (Arsenal p49)
These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for the purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do (see p317 SR4, p149 SR4)

QUOTE (SR4A p327)
Helmets and shields do not count as separate pieces of armor; instead they modify the rating of worn armor by their rating


I wish PPP were free armor... frown.gif
Angelone
Wow I suck tonight... Ignore me.
Mäx
QUOTE (Angelone @ Oct 17 2010, 09:29 PM) *
PPP does not add to encumbrance.

Yes it does, just like a helmet does.
Both of those add to the rating of your existing armor, which value you then use for encubrance.
KarmaInferno
The amusing question is: if you attach the Securetech PPP pieces to a FFBA suit, does the PPP armor increase get halved along with the FFBA armor for encumbrance, if you then put on an armor jacket or something?


-k
Yerameyahu
Nope.
KarmaInferno
I would tend to agree, but the wording of the rules means that you don't have a suit of FFBA of rating 6/4 with a +2/+2 from PPP, you have a suit of FFBA (with PPP) of rating 8/6.

The FFBA should probably at this point be errata'd to say, "add only half the BASE rating (round down) of form-fitting body armor" for encumbrance, to account for armor mods.

Hell, really, Shadowrun really could use a "when modifying numbers, apply the modifiers to the BASE value of the number, unless otherwise specified" general rule. Would get rid of the "modifiers modifying modifiers modifying modifiers" syndrome.



-k
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 17 2010, 10:14 AM) *
Still wouldn't be pointless, as there is less of you that you have to hide, and less of you for someone to see. People are much more likely to see something the size of a body than the size of a melon.


Most people's vision naturally wanders from head to torso height and rarely higher or lower than that unless they're actively looking around. A floating head would attract more attention than a rolling bowling ball.
sabs
Anyone consider a house rule where str/body cannot be more than 2 points apart?

So that if you had a 5 Body, you needed at least a 3 str, and up to a 7 str. (before augmentations)
It's also kind of silly that replacing your muscles with cybernetic mesh, or augmenting them to be super strong, doesn't also increase your body. Part of being able to take a punch, etc, is building up muscle strength.

Muscle Aug should probably be +Rating Str and +1/2 Rating (round down) body.
Semerkhet
It got mentioned in a previous topic, but I'll say it again.

I'm using the armor encumbrance house rule I saw here on DS a while back.

Instead of Bodyx2 > higher of either Ballistic or Impact, I allow armor stacking (up to a point) and use:

If the sum of a character’s Ballistic and Impact armor ratings exceeds his (Body+Strength) x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his (Body+Strength) x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their total Ballistic and Impact ratings together before comparing to (Body+Strength) x2.

I find this mitigates the Strength dump stat problem. Also, I don't allow stacking of anything but FFBA with milspec.

My group has a set of milspec they use if they know ahead of time that they'll be going someplace where subtlety doesn't matter. They've taken jobs in Lagos and the Chicago CZ and performed a fixed defense in the Redmond Barrens, all cases where the consequences of wearing military armor were minimal. Sure, they don't use the milspec for most jobs, but it pays to have it when you can get away with wearing it.
Yerameyahu
You'd think milspec would already include FFBA.
Neraph
A troll with no points in strength or body can wear 20 armor in your game. More with FFBA.

....

Wow. I can break that so quick.
sabs
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 19 2010, 04:37 PM) *
A troll with no points in strength or body can wear 20 armor in your game. More with FFBA.

....

Wow. I can break that so quick.


of combined B/I armor
for example, a Chameleon suit adds up to 14 points.

So yes, you can wear a bit more skewed armor. Although you'd have to work hard at it.

Semerkhet
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 19 2010, 10:37 AM) *
A troll with no points in strength or body can wear 20 armor in your game. More with FFBA.

....

Wow. I can break that so quick.

Except that I have no trolls in my game and none of my players are trying to break the game.

Also, I'd allow at most FFBA plus a vest plus a jacket. (note the "up to a point" part of my earlier post) That gets you 18 Ballistic and 11 Impact. A combined Body+Strength of 15 can handle that.

Then do the math on 28 Damage Resistance dice versus full autofire DVs of 15 or 16. Still won't take more than a couple of bursts to burn through the Stun track. The most heavily armored character in my group fairly regularly gets taken down via Stun, only to have her biomonitor and auto-injector stim her back to consciousness.
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