Hey All,

So I've just recently started playing SR4 and have become obsessed with making characters. Right now I play a street samurai who uses a blade. There is a decent chance he may die due to story things.... So if he does die I need to cover close combat again for the group. So I've decided to make this Troll Adept.

Background (Quick Version): Left at orphanage when he was a young kid (not baby). Orphanage rejected him. Learn to survive on the streets. Starting robing people to get money to gamble at the Underground Fighting League (UFL, similar to illegal boxing where people gamble). Got recruited to the Triads who showed him he was an Adept and taught him to fight, currently fights for the Triads in the UFL.

Main Question: Is it worth 1 magic to have Improved reflexes 2 rather than 1?
Fun Note: his DV on unarmed attacks is (STR/2 + 8 )S or P, so it is 13S or 13P he can one shot most my group down to knocked out.

450 BP Limit

Name: Jax Durden (haha Fight Club)
Race: Troll
Magic Type: Adept

Stats

Body: 9
Agility: 3
Reaction: 4 (6)
Strength: 9
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Will Power: 3

Edge: 3
Magic: 6
Essence: 6

Qualities

Toughness
High Pain Tolerance 1
Adept
Martial Arts 2
- +2 DV to unarmed
- Finishing Move
- Kick Attack
- Break Weapon
- Set Up

SINner Criminal

Skills

Athletics Skill Group: 1
Unarmed Combat(Martial Arts): 6 ( 8 )
Dodge (Melee Combat): 4 (6)
Perception: 3
First Aid (Combat Wounds): 3 (5)
Tracking (Urban): 2 (4)
Con: 2
Pilot Ground Craft (Bike): 2 (4)

Contact

Alak Bhunath: L 4, C 3 (Triad Adept Trainer)

Powers

Attribute Boost 1 (Agility)
Improved Reflexes 2
Killing Hands
Penetrating Strike 3
Critical Strike 6

Gear

Armor Jacket
Helmet (Regular)
Commlink
Medkit 6
Fake Sin 4
Off-Road Bike
Low lifestyle

Thanks for the tips

Edit Notes:

Thanks all for the tips I'll try to sum up the changes i'm going to make here.

1. Get Rid of Specializations
2. Get a GUN, fully automatic capable, rifle or smg!
3. Get Stealth
4. See about losing some magic for Bioware
5. Lower dodge since I can block in melee combat

I personally LOVE making Adepts with Magic 4(5) due to one point of Essence being spent on a mix of bioware and cyberware.

For example, a single point of Essence (and 56k ¥) can buy you Muscle Toner 2 (+2 Agility) and Bone Density Augmentation 2 (+2 toughness, free Killing Fists and +1 damage).

Alternately, a single point of Essence (and 160k ¥) can buy you Synaptic Booster 2, which means you'll effectively pay 1 point of Magic for Improved Reflexes II (instead of 2.5 points of magic). You can put the extra 1.5 points of Magic into Combat Sense 3.

Regarding martial arts, I'm not an expert, but I can tell you that the PhysAd from my group didn't get good value out of Set Up Strike and Finishing Move. The former is 100% useless: you're always better off attacking than using that action to set up your next attack. Why? WOUND PENALTIES. If you hurt your enemy, you DID "set up" your next attack, AND everyone else's next attack AND every single attack after that. "Finishing Strike" has some theoretic use, since it allows you to spend a future action right now, but in practice it didn't help over the course of four sessions, so he dropped it.

Cheers, -- N

You should at least OWN a gun. There are many occasion where you can't just "run over there and punch a dude"

Maybe lower magic one point, or get some points somewhere else and take the Stealth group... if you play in a "serious runners" group.

Maybe save some points by not taking the specializations right away (I hate it too... but in chargen they are double the price than ingame... weirdly)

But hell... do whatever fits the background. fun first... not mindless (or highly intelligent *g*) optimization.

Also i like that he is not really maximized in punching people, but does a crapload of damage. I like the "mighty glacier" style. The high reaction is a bit off then, though. Maybe more armor (magical)?

I'll throw a couple things out there.

First: I'll agree 100%. Set-up is worthless. (I could see it being useful for a sniper to get a better bonus then "take aim" but thats a whole other ballpark)

Second: You have no infiltration. It never hurts to get a few meters closer to someone before they spot you, as a melee character.

Third: You have absolutely no cyberware. You could easily snag up some "free" points by picking up sensitive system (negitive quality)

Lastly: I always have a hard time when I see people buying Improved Reflexes over the bio equivilant. Unless your going for a "pure" magic character, there is almost no reason not too.

Okay, one more bit of advice: do not specialize at character generation. It's twice as expensive as specializing after your first run, and you can't spend those points on pumping up expensive skills.

For example, if you ditched your 5 specializations, you'd have +10 BP, which is enough to put some ranks in one of the Firearms skills (Pistols, Automatics, or Longarms).

And replacing those 5 specializations would cost you 10 karma..
which is 2-3 runs, tops.

Another thing I just noticed. It seems you've only spent 180 BP on attributes. 450 BP lets you spend 225 BP on attributes. So you've still got 4 points you could spend, if you have the points left from other areas.

EDIT: Also, you could drop dodge (and replace it with gymnastics) or at least switch your specality to ranged combat. Since you will be using your unarmed combat skill to block/parry melee attacks.

Thanks for all the tips. I'll re work him a bit and edit the original post soon. I'll look into getting either throwing weapons or a gun and some stealth. I just figured a troll wouldn't be too stealthy. And I'll get rid of the specializations for now and use it for something else like a stat boost.



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If you figure out what PissedoffBuddha means can you let me know?

kthxbye

Go gun over thrown weapons. Specifically Automatics. They're the most flexible of the weapon skills (machine pistols, smgs, assault rifles), and have the most ranged options.

an assault rifle with
HVR, heavy barrel, drum, and padded stock is a very nice effective weapon for when getting in close isn't possible.

keep a pair of smgs in shoulder harnesses (you are a freaking troll) for when the drek his the fan someplace you can't openly carry an assault rifle.

It's a nice combo.

at a 9 str you have a point of recoil compensation naturally for being the biggest and the strongest.

6P damage, Gas Vent 3, rigid stock, heavy barrel, you're looking at 6point of recoil comp.
You can fire long bursts with no penalties.

And then either do wide, or suppressive fire, until you start having some decent weapon skills.

The idea with the specialization is right, but ranks on the firearms skills for 10 bp wont give you a better rate. All you get is level 2, which would still be the rate 1BP - 1Karma.
I would rather put the 10 points in agility, which is important for melee characters.

One of my players and I have been looking for a rule like this, but haven't been able to find it. Could you provide a source for that?





~R~

That is true, but on the other hand a troll adept with this strenght is the best opportunity to make a thrown weapon character. And thrown weapon have the advantage that many of them can be improvised and/or aren't illegal.

Easy: Arsenal Page 163, Strength and recoil

6-9: 1 recoil
10-13: 2 Recoil
14-17: 3 Recoil
18+: 4 Recoil

Thanks much.

Look at this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2125/228273...1239_z.jpg?zz=1
Then look at this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2029/228194...096b_z.jpg?zz=1

Of course, that's for a THROWING WEAPONS ADEPT . .

I see one thing here that is, to me, a glaring error.

Why would you have dodge at such a high level specialized in melee combat? When you are defending in melee combat, you're going to want to use Reaction + Unarmed Combat. Unless it's for full defense, but I don't see why a troll would need to go on full defense all that often--at least, in my group that rule almost never gets used. At least change the specialization to ranged combat. But I'd start downsizing it all together.

And find some other things you can drop so you can get a gun, the ability to sneak (the game is called SHADOW RUN for a reason, why would you not have stealth?) and maybe up your agility by a point. It will make you more likely to collect. As it stands, my human adept (who is only 400 BP) would float-like-a-butterfly, sting-like-a-bee your adept in close combat because even though your troll adept has much higher DV, he is much less likely to connect since he's rolling only ~11 Dice to hit. Not bad, but not good enough for 450 BP.

@Stahlseele: I love that image.

Who doesn't?
Also, it's called shadowRUN . . why do you not have running in there? ^^

And even on full defense you can just add your melee skill twice. If you have a melee skill, dodge is fairly useless since it can be replaced with the more versatile gymnastics skill.

I have built and currently playin a simular runner, I found elemental strike is a must have, let you half armour is very handy (If you dnt mind makin sound, then go with sound and ignore their armour all together.) Also look at surge "bone spikes" give you extra +2DV to unarmed attack (also can pick up Nasty vibe) to give you +3 to all Intimidation tests (handy for low charisma runners)

How is Intimidation handy for a character with low Charisma?

Additional bonuses for being dangled by a leg by a Troll that just ripped you through a wall?

No i meant "nasty vibe" was handy (exspecaily for a nasty ass kickin troll) boasts Intimidation rolls to 5 instead of 2 (ok 4 instead of 1 as he doesnt have it as skill and that be -1) but still 5BP surge 1 give you nasty vibe + bone spikes which isnt bad going (unless i misunderstood a rule)

Social checks: It's all about the situational bonuses.

If you really want to be "the best" at unarmed combat, focus more on getting a big attack pool that how much damage you do when you hit. "Penetrating Strike 3" and "Critical Strike 6" seem like a lot of points (both magic and BP) spent that could go towards bumping up that attack pool. Those abilities do no good if you don't land the attack. If you are fighting other skilled combatants in the UFL, there's gonna be guys facing you who can pump out 20 dice for HTH, even more on full defence.

I do agree with the above advice to branch out a bit; you can be a decent paid streetfighter without being the best, and other skills are much more useful for shadowrunning.

Main Question: Is it worth 1 magic to have Improved reflexes 2 rather than 1?
definitely !!
get Synaptic Booster 1 and Muscle Augmentation 2 Alpha (+0,36 Ess. of Cyberware ,maybe Cybereyes ? or Muscle Enhancer 1 Alpha for STR 10 and Recoil 2?)

with an augmented Dance
Medicineman

High Pain Tolerance has some nice flavor to it but is otherwise a pretty mediocre quality, particularly since stuff like the equivalent Adept power and Pain Editors are both better than the quality and incompatible with it. If you want something on your sheet that shows some character while still being fairly useful you may want to consider spending that 5 points and some creativity on another contact.

A comment on the character's background : the character's triad affiliation is likely to get in him trouble sooner or later - these guys expect loyalty and aren't exactly fond of quitters. Especially if they went through the troubles of digging said quitter and training his adept abilities. He's an asset they poured serious time and effort into, and like any good money-makers, they expect some return on their investment... Risking his skin in side jobs who don't bring anything to the Triad his going to leave them a wee bit miffed. Unless he does it on his spare time, with the triad's permission.

A possible option would be to have his former triad wiped out (or a close enough approximation of it) to leave him free - though at that point things like a revenge vow or a low-grade ennemy group representing the fact that even if the wiping party is no longer actively looking for surivors, he's still a loose end that deserves to be tied if it appears on their radar.

Also an advice on knowledge skills ; some point in chinese are in my opinion mandatory - especially if he's been instructed in martial arts and adept powers. And in my opinion his martial art choices should have a chinese flavor : he got some basic alley brawling skills, then refined it under the Triad's teaching

I do not agree here... The average Unarmed Combatant in the UFL is not likely going to be throwing 20+ Dice (even 14 -16 Dice is a Stretch)... The game world does not support that logic in the least.

A note about specializations - they may be more costly at char-gen, but they are still a relatively cheap +2 bonus. While the rest of them could be picked up after play begins, I would not get rid of his martial arts specialization - that's his main skill, and frankly, he needs the boost to his dice pool.

I would raise Agility to 4, then drop penetrating strike to get improved Attribute/Agility to raise it to 5, and I would also drop Toughness to get two more levels of martial arts - or at least one more, to get the full +3 DV that you are allowed. And drop the Set Up maneuver, which is useless - why waste a successful attack, just to get a bonus to the next one?

Things you can change or pare down: replace tracking with shadowing - a mugger doesn't follow people's footprints, he stalks them. You don't need a vehicle skill for normal operation of a vehicle, so unless you are planning on outrunning cops or doing bootlegger turns on your bike, you can settle for defaulting. For first aid, I would lower it - a rating: 6 medkit will be doing most of the heavy lifting, anyways. Infiltration, I don't consider quite the must-have that others do, not for someone who won't be the primary sneak. A ranged skill, such as pistols or automatics, is essential, though.

...while specialisations may cost more at chargen, remember Karma is more valuable than money for an awakened character especially as it will cost you 31 Karma to get your next point of MA (Initiation grade cost + Magic attribute increase). At the rate of say 3 - 4 Karma per run that could be two or more months meeting weekly (depending on whether a "run" takes more than one session to complete) before you have banked up enough Karma (without spending it on anything else) to get that MA of 7 for an additional power point.

When I ran a 4th ed version of KK it took over 5 months before she was able to save up enough Karma to initiate and get that next PP as she also spent Karma on improving existing skills and adding specilaisations to keep pace with the level of threats we were facing.

While normally I am of the "pure adept" school, I begrudgingly agree that in 4th ed, burning one point of MA for bioware at chargen can be a good thing. For 1 Power Point the Kid was able to get a rating 2 Muscle Toner, rating 1 Synaptic Boosting, and a Reflex recorder on her Pistols skill (at the time I was playing her, the cost for Improved Reflexes was 2, 3, and 5 PPs for ratings 1, 2, & 3). Didn't go for the rating 2 boost as that would have cost another 16 BPs for resources which was effectively a rating of 4 in an active skill.

If you are going pure magic, max it at start and max improved reflexes, I know it is cheap and you are spending a lot of bp to do so but iit is the single most effective thing you can do at char gen. If you need to justify it with the mighty glaciar thing this character has you should recall that improved reflexes isn't about how fast you move but, in part, how efficiently you make your move and get back in to your set.

Really? I've never found it useful or significantly compelling to have anything beyond Reflexes 2 (be it magical or mundane in nature), especially not when compared with its cost and everything you give up to get it.

Agreed...

Anything over 2 is nice for those builds that like to tank it out in Full Defense before making a shot or two, but seems fairly superfluous mostly. 2 is definitely worth it though.

Yeah, the full investment costs an arm and a leg, which is a problem given that specialized melee characters really benefit from attaining a very large dice pool. That's because hand-to-hand combat doesn't really have anything that quite measures up to a point-blank Full Wide Burst when it comes to making sure that an attack will at least connect. That's problematic given that a competent armed melee defender can do things like maintain Full Defense while attacking or threaten damaging disarms. In fact, the general effectiveness of melee defense trumps melee offense well enough that I don't really consider close quarters combat to be a full-fledged and necessary role on a runner team. In my experience the best thing about most big ol' troll builds is usually their Body score, with the melee stuff being impressive but rarely any better than just taking Automatics for far less expense.

Eh, maybe it is just the tables I've played at then but the advantage of having another pass of actions has always proven to be a rather telling one, it allows you to atleast react to what the enemy has done, tactics they have employed and that sort of thing. The extra reaction is always nice as well.

Of course, but what else can you get for that cost?

Yeah, my big problem with getting more passes as an adept is the fact that it leaves you less room to load up on Improved (non-combat) Ability, which is one of the more cost effective Adept powers out there given that you can score 4 more dice for 10 bp. That's a pretty decent deal given that you can shunt those points into skills you really want to be good in as opposed to getting a more generalized benefit like with adding Logic or Charisma.

3 Dice actually... Due to Augmented Skill Maximums.

Yeah, that's why you split the points among a few skills. It's still .25 of a Power Point per rating no matter how you slice it.

Indeed, it is a great adept ability...

Hacker and/or B&E Adept for the Win

with an unseen Dance
Medicineman