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Full Version: Idea for a new metamagic *Extrapolation*
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Lansdren
Looking through the spell books avaliable got me thinking about spell forms

All combat spells and most other spells have three settings, Touch, LOS, LOSA.

If you were a mage and learned to throw lightning at someone why wouldnt you understand the princibles to hold it in your hand and touch someone with it? Or if your throwing a fireball why cant you just push more energy into it and make it a larger fireball?

With this in mind I put forward for discussion a new metamagic

*Extrapolation*
This metamagic allows a caster to expand or reduce a spells effective area from small area in the hand up to a area effect.

If a caster has learned one form of a spell with either a Touch, LOS, or LOSA rating the mage is able to cast the same spell with a different rating but with plus 2 to the drain code

Example
Bill finds himself being charged by three gangers down a alley.
Normally Bill would have trouble taking all three of them down quickly as he doesnt know any area spells
But Bill knows manabolt and has been taught the extrapolation metamagic by his mentor.
Bill reaches into his magic and forms the manabolt into something new and more dangerous.
His manaball fires out from him and strikes all three gangers. It doesnt take them out but slows them down enough for Bill to get away
Due to the use of extrapolation the drain code for manaball was DV= (F/2)+4







Any thoughts?

darthmord
I would raise the Drain Code by at least +4.

The reason being, any spell you'd do that to would be fairly low drain in the first place.

Secondly, you learn spells based on a set of criteria. Thus changing one aspect of the spell is a totally new formula.

Or if desired, you could make the drain from the metamagic usage be a minimum 2 Stun/Physical (normal or physical depending on if overcasting) is taken regardless of the dice roll.

Ex: You roll against 5 Drain. Get 2 successes. Take 3 drain.
Ex: You roll against 5 Drain. Get 4 successes. Take 2 Drain.

Now if you were saying +2 Drain for each change of the spell's attributes.. say going from Self -> Touch -> Ranged, that would result in a self-spell being a ranged spell and giving +4 Drain, that may be doable.

Keep in mind that you can already make your AoE larger/smaller by withholding dice (unless that got erratta'd out at some point in SR4a).
Ascalaphus
I like the general idea, but I'm not sure about the practical application. Certainly, moving to a greater area of effect should increase drain. Moving to a smaller area... well, I'd say take the smaller-area equivalent spell and add a +1 or +2 Drain to it (because Extrapolation isn't as efficient as knowing the other spell in the first place.)

Self-only spells in particular shouldn't always be possible to extrapolate to other/larger targets. And certain spells shouldn't be increased in their target-size without a significant increase in Drain, such as Healing.

Maybe it would be best to restrict it to extrapolating spells as to function as a "relative"; Stunbolt and Stunball can be extrapolated to each other, but Heal not to an area, because there's no Mass Heal.
Lansdren
To me the idea that you learn one spell to do touch one to do ranged and one to do area is only a rules and balance thing as from a learning perspective it makes little to no sense.

If you were learning something you would start with something basic then work up to harder things, you could even argue that you possibly shouldnt know the area spell without knowing both the touch and the ranged version to play up the learning. But to even contimeplate that you would have to lower the karma cost for a spell drastically.


I think I will run some simulations with different levels of increasing the drain either a general uplift before the roll or maybe a lower uplift which comes after the roll (that way a mage who is built to avoid drain would still get some from using the metamagic).
Machiavelli
Sounds like "Final Fantasy" to me. Where you can cast e.g. "haste" and later on a version that is capable to be cast on the entire group. ^^
Lansdren
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Oct 18 2010, 03:57 PM) *
Sounds like "Final Fantasy" to me. Where you can cast e.g. "haste" and later on a version that is capable to be cast on the entire group. ^^



Was more thinking of a few fantasy lines where the wannabe mage has to learn basic spells to build up to more impressive ones as a learning curve.

There are a few examples in the dresden universe and also in the otherworld books

Never could see the attraction of the FF series myself so any similarity is purely chance

Neraph
Isn't this just a metamagic technique that gives you the AoE versions of spells without having to learn them?
Lansdren
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 19 2010, 01:20 AM) *
Isn't this just a metamagic technique that gives you the AoE versions of spells without having to learn them?



Not quite,


More that it gives flexibility ot a spell. I was thinking mostly taking it from touch up to ranged then up to area. Saves karma (after the cost of initiation) but costs drain so gives with one hand takes with the other.

and to use a argument that you yourself have put forward, I like it fluff wise as its abit more dresden
Manunancy
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Oct 18 2010, 04:30 PM) *
If you were learning something you would start with something basic then work up to harder things, you could even argue that you possibly shouldnt know the area spell without knowing both the touch and the ranged version to play up the learning. But to even contimeplate that you would have to lower the karma cost for a spell drastically.


Which version you should learn first is heavily dependent on how magic works ; is it easier to pour power in, or to shape and direct that power ?
If I remember right, SR3 had a 'magic wants to go free' approach that made it harder to lessen a spell's area of effect than to expend it. Setting limits whas harder than removing them. A touch version of an effect would require to control where the magic go as well as shielding yourself from it - you want to fry the bad guy, not your arm.
Aku
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Oct 19 2010, 02:59 AM) *
Not quite,


More that it gives flexibility ot a spell. I was thinking mostly taking it from touch up to ranged then up to area. Saves karma (after the cost of initiation) but costs drain so gives with one hand takes with the other.

and to use a argument that you yourself have put forward, I like it fluff wise as its abit more dresden



I would say, if you were to adopt this, you would need to make sure that the addt'l drain exceeded whatever upgraded spell you're mimicking is. So, instead of modifying the base spell you know (say manabolt) it modifies the spell it's replicating (manaball). If there isnt an upgrade like that, than this metamagic cant affect it.
Neraph
It looks like he did. Each spell so emulated has +2 Drain.

EDIT: I'm not convinced that's enough. I'm also not convinced this should be used in a game, but as far as house rules go, YMMV. If it works for you, great, but I seriously suggest upping the drain or making it all physical or something. A limit of (Initiation Grade) times per day?
Aku
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 19 2010, 10:12 AM) *
It looks like he did. Each spell so emulated has +2 Drain.

EDIT: I'm not convinced that's enough. I'm also not convinced this should be used in a game, but as far as house rules go, YMMV. If it works for you, great, but I seriously suggest upping the drain or making it all physical or something. A limit of (Initiation Grade) times per day?



Well, i would say he isnt being ENTIRELY clear in the original post. does the +2 add to the upgraded spell cost, as in the example? the original text seems to imply, to me, that the cost is added to the base spell.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 19 2010, 05:21 PM) *
Well, i would say he isnt being ENTIRELY clear in the original post. does the +2 add to the upgraded spell cost, as in the example? the original text seems to imply, to me, that the cost is added to the base spell.


This. Which would be somewhat strange, and would favor extrapolating from small to large and not from large to small.

Better to use a +2 to the drain of the spell you're replicating.
Neraph
Which, in my opinion, is still not enough of a deterrant to make just grabbing one of each spell type and this metamagic, and learning new spells be damned.
Aku
Well, the exact + of drain is still, imo, negotiable, but i tend to agree, because most spells that have an AOE version, are only +2, so i think you need the +2 to make it an AOE, +something to signify that it is ad-hoc spell casting. I dont think i would go more than +3 over the already extended version though, or +5 from a base spell.
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