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Juggler
The feedback that I got on Full Auto weapons was excellent, so I figured I would go fishing for some more House Rule suggestions, this time on 3rd Edition rules for damage. Again, I am not looking to attack the rules or droll on about reality in a fantasy game, but my players enjoy logic in their games, and I have found that alot of the dumpshockers do as well.

The problem: Firearm Damage
1.) Bullets doing no damage. I will use a 6L weapon as an example. A normal guy (bod 4, no armor, no cyber) manages 2 successes, dropping the damage to none. I can deal with the idea of a guy in armor or with some serious plating evading real damage, but the rule as it stands allows for this to happen. I considered the graze idea (just got a graze), but it feels like a copout. Any house rule ideas?

2.) Seems impossible to kill with a Light weapon. Lets imagine a 6L gun (a .22 for example). In the hands of an amateur (we will say level 1), it wouldn't be possible to kill anyone with this gun. Even if he maxxes out his Combat Pool at 1 extra die, the best he could hope to do is taking the damage to Moderate. It would take 5 very lucky bullets to kill a normal person with a .22 pistol. Defaulting might help, but not by much. House Rule Ideas?
Summerstorm
to 1: IF a guy managed two successes at 6 without armor, he was lucky. Body 4 is also good, not average. IF you hit someone with a BULLETPROOF vest (it is called that for a reason), yes there should be less danger. Even in the real world you can keep on firing on someone with good armor and cannot expect him to die, if you are using a peashooter. The point is: Hit him where he has no armor. And i agree, that mechanic is a bit weird in SR (not being able to "luck" around armor).

Also having to pump someone full of bullets, so he stays down seems very realistic. There are many reports and statistics (yeah, yeah... i know) about lethality of handguns.

That said: If you want it more dangerous (for ALL weapons) you could roll a "luck" die with all attacks, multiplying damage values when it comes up with high numbers. (Say on a 6 you do double damage - instead of 1 box at L: 2, 6 at M, 12 at S, T insta-frags if you don't get ten successes (hahaha). Power stays the same, and it needs to be calculated BEFORE the resistance test.)

to 2: Yepp... having 1 point skill in anything is mostly bullcrap in SR. But have two and you can do something (or just default, even though you have a skill... is that allowed? We did allow that).

That all said: i still liked the system, because in middle/high skillrating it works brilliant, i think. Having the resistance roll min 2, even when well armoured made shots staged to D dangerous... (well, except to people in hardened armor), and no one could expect going through a firefight, even with 8 points constitution and get no damage.

The new SR4 system... is much more fluid, but also somehow feels softer.
DeadLogic
Softer?
kzt
People do get shot and take no serious damage from that hit pretty commonly. A through and through hit might just hurt like hell, or net even be noticed. For an example see Platt in the following. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout. He took a fatal wound at the start of the shootout, but he continued to fight and kill for several minutes, most of the other 10+ bullet hits had essentially no effect until the final pistol shots by Mireles.

Mechanically it's hard to fix problem 2. It isn't a typical problem in an average session, but it is pretty much nuts and suggests a general flaw with the mechanics. But it's hard to think of fix that doesn't require gutting the system.
Critias
The long and short of it is that the game is best balanced for moderate-to-large die pools, and moderate-to-heavy weapons. If they balanced it, instead, so that a light pistol in the hands of a rank amateur was moderately dangerous, it would mean that a Ruger Thunderbolt in the hands of a trained and professional shooter would be ridiculously lethal.

So, instead, an Ares Predator in the hands of a beat cop is moderately dangerous, a Ruger Thunderbolt in the hands of a trained and professional shooter is dangerous but not automatically game-ending, and that poor schmuck that's just the rank amateur with the light pistol is...well...pretty laughable.

You've got to pick your poison, some times. Balance towards the low end, balance towards the high end, balance towards the middle...the issue isn't entirely one of base damage, but also one of die pool and TN manipulation. My go-to character, a Sammie that I kept in play for a long, long, time? His most heavily used gun, throughout his SR3 career, was an SMG with a 6L base damage code. Some of his most memorable kills came not from bursts, but single shots.
Summerstorm
Aye, i too had character using twin Hämmerli pistols in slides on his arms, with a ridiculous combat pool. He DID hurt most people, but i agree sweet 9 or even 10M pistols would have been MUCH more effective.

But style counts too *g*.

@Deadlogic :

Well, the difficulty ramps with the TN-system just made the whole hitting/dodging/resistance thing, with lower dicepools, much more unpredictable. It felt dangerous to get shot at. Now you can say: Ah i have that and that many dice here and here... so i can in average resist that and that. In SR3, if there were the right circumstances things would be SCARY. (For example using combat pool to dodge... but you are out in the open and you have TWO enemies). Now you can just say: Ah well, i have more IP's and a crapload of dodge... they CAN'T wear me down that far.)

EDIT: Ah and don't forget to load better ammo into your 6L pistol. APDS helps a lot.
Medicineman
EDIT: Ah and don't forget to load better ammo into your 6L pistol. APDS helps a lot.

Way way simpler.
Back when we played SR3 we gave Holdouts a damage Code of 6L and Light Pistols 6M
(It seemed better that way since Todays versions of SR-MPs are (mostly) 9mm (H&K)
just like automatic Pistols(Ceska Black Scorpion or Beretta ST) or Light Pistols (Beretta )
we never understood, why the same Caliber was doing so different Damage.
But please.I don't want to start a Caliber Discussion.I only want to offer a simple Solution to a Stupid Rules Problem.I don't play SR3 anymore for Years now.

With a simple Dance
Medicineman
Brainpiercing7.62mm
It's funny, in SR3 I felt the combat damage could be gauged MUCH more accurately from each gun.

Basically it went liket his:

Every serious runner got 9 Speed, and consequently 9-10 Ballistic armour. That meant that he was "safe" from bascially anything below an AR without special ammo firing bursts. That tended to be my target. As a GM, I had the bad guys use AKs or shotguns to endanger, but not seriously injure the runners. If I wanted to hurt then, I would use XX or 6 round Full-auto.

As a runner, what I used to do was use up to four pool dice to dodge, and usually 2 pool dice to help with resistance. (Serious runners tended to have 6 or more body dice.) Usually it was quite safe to walk into a room full of mooks shooting SMGs, as long as you got into some sort of cover, or used tumble dodging to get into melee range. The one house-rule we always used was that damage never went beyond deadly. We just capped at D, which could create some weird things with being basically unkillable in one attack when using the old Trauma/Platelet combo. BUT it was still nice to have this kind of certainty.
The other possibly non-standard rule we used without ever actually mentioning it was adding ALL the rounds of a burst to the base power level, and not just those above the first. So a three-round burst produced +3Power/+1Damage. This produces the possibly funny numbers in the example in the spoilers.

[ Spoiler ]


So the rather reliable interaction of power, damage and armour made it possible to taylor encounters against the capabilities of your runners. As a GM, I could simply tell my players: I want you to be able to withstand at least 12D without taking serious harm. That's the bar if I don't want to really hurt you. Then if I did want to hurt them a little more I would use a heavy pistol with APDS or three-round bursts with 8M ARs and XX., or even 6 round full-auto with standard ammo in an AR. In our system that produced 14D with a reliable chance of a serious wound, but a very improbable death of the runner, since he, on average, had to roll 5s to resist. Another possible option to hurt them without killing them is hitting their impact armour. Always nice.


About light pistols: Well... they suck, and you can't do anything about that. The problem is that even when used at point-blank against a non-moving target, there is just a hard limit to their power.

I see it like this:
The single success hit of an L calibre pistol does an uncomplicated shallow flesh-wound against an unresisting target
The single success hit of an M calibre heavy pistol or AR does an uncomplicated full penetration flesh wound against an unresisting target
The single success hit of an S calibre weapon does a serious wound with all kinds of tissue damage
The single success hit of a D calibre weapon... well, you know it. It just causes enough trauma to put you out of it.

In this respect, SR3 is actually very accurate. For example: An untrained shooter (skill 3, speed 3) taking potshots at an unskilled target (body 3, no armour) will only need about a 6M weapon to kill his target with several shots. Soaking 6M is already difficult without armour. If you did manage to roll the four 6s, then you were just very lucky, and just got a graze, or a freak richochet off a bone that only produced a scratch. Heavy pistols get increasingly difficult to soak, hence the probability of dealing at least medium damage with a single success goes up significantly.

The problem is this: There aren't really many weapons with high base power but low damage. So most light pistols are easily completely resisted by a guy in armour, which makes sense.

As a house-rule to make light weapons more deadly in the hands of a truly competent shooter would be to increase Power first, and then damage. For example, give a 6L light pistol a max augmented power value of 9 (1.5x base, rounded down), to be increased on the same scale as damage with +1 per two hits. After hitting that power, improve the damage. Or increase BOTH at the same time, with the possible side effects of really powerful bigger guns.

Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Juggler @ Oct 20 2010, 12:30 AM) *
2.) Seems impossible to kill with a Light weapon. Lets imagine a 6L gun (a .22 for example). In the hands of an amateur (we will say level 1), it wouldn't be possible to kill anyone with this gun. Even if he maxxes out his Combat Pool at 1 extra die, the best he could hope to do is taking the damage to Moderate. It would take 5 very lucky bullets to kill a normal person with a .22 pistol. Defaulting might help, but not by much. House Rule Ideas?

This is the flip side of the fact that the rules make it ridiculously easy to hit someone. In real life, the amateur would most likely simply miss every shot.

That said, it only takes four Moderate wounds to bring someone into Deadly. The fifth is only necessary if they have Body 3 or better and you refuse to wait for them to bleed out within the next less-than-a-minute.

~J
Juggler
Most of what I just read strayed from my point (which is really just to fish for houserule ideas), so I will reiterate.

1.) Bullets doing no damage - This was about the rolls dropping legitimate gunshot wounds to "no-injury." The armor point is valid, but that only holds true with armor. The example that I put up was for a person without armor dropping a 6L bullet to no-damage because of a BOD check (the arguements about 2 successes being lucky or if a BOD 4 is average is moot). Points were made about how people can press on after taking gunshot injuries, but even with those examples, the person was actually injured. I am not trying to attack the rule, as this is just a (great) game, but rather to see if anyone had ideas to reflect logic (not necessarily realism - after all, we are using magic) in a house rule.

2.) Seems impossible to kill with a Light weapon. The responses to this one really bothered me. I fear that there is a serious misconception about how little damage these "pea-shooters" do. A .22 caliber gun is extremely lethal, but because they are usually fired with low grains, they do not cause the raw physical damage that the larger guns do (hell, a .22 cal and a 7.62mm bullet are nearly the same size, but the bullets are dramatically different when you look at the casings/payload). Some of the responses suggested that ameteurs are unlikely to ever hit their targets. This is WAY OFF. The prisons are full of people who were ametures right up to that fateful night that led to their convictions. My example did bring some logical responses about the rule (again, the only thing I was looking for a solution to) being illogical as written, but only a few suggestions.

I really appreciate all of the responses, as you still took the time to respond to my questions, and for that I thank you. I hope this response isn't misunderstood, but as I am still looking for some more suggestions, I did want to respond to what I just read. I did take note of the few ideas that were offered (some of them are worth trying - thanks).
Mayhem_2006
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 20 2010, 11:50 AM) *
we never understood, why the same Caliber was doing so different Damage.


That's pretty simple - the bullet only accelerates whilst gas is trapped behind it in the barrel of the gun.

Shorter barrel = less acceleration = less velocity = less momentum = less energy transfered into the target at the moment of impact = less damage.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Juggler @ Oct 21 2010, 07:06 AM) *
Most of what I just read strayed from my point (which is really just to fish for houserule ideas), so I will reiterate.

1.) Bullets doing no damage - This was about the rolls dropping legitimate gunshot wounds to "no-injury." The armor point is valid, but that only holds true with armor. The example that I put up was for a person without armor dropping a 6L bullet to no-damage because of a BOD check (the arguements about 2 successes being lucky or if a BOD 4 is average is moot). Points were made about how people can press on after taking gunshot injuries, but even with those examples, the person was actually injured. I am not trying to attack the rule, as this is just a (great) game, but rather to see if anyone had ideas to reflect logic (not necessarily realism - after all, we are using magic) in a house rule.

This is really quite simple: A light wound, caused by a peripheral hit, is already a significant flesh wound. There are any number scratches and bruises you can have before even getting to light wound, which simply fall out of the rough rasterization of the game. You simply don't have a 1 HP injury on a 100HP character in SR3. Which is why when you resist a hit down to nothingness, then you are just that tough, and you've only taken a few scratches or bruises. It's a game, it doesn't have to be realisting, just immersive.

If you like, create something smaller than a light wound, called maybe a bruise or a scratch. Whenever you take a hit but resist it fully, you get a bruise. After taking a few bruises, you get a light wound instead.

The other option would be to simply cap resisting at L. So if you're not wearing armour, you always get at least a light wound. I wouldn't do this with armour, because it should be possible - within a game - to be just that tough, and shrug off a hit on your armour. Of course, you might do stuff like give stun damage, perhapst at least one box, whenever you completely resist a physical wound.

QUOTE
2.) Seems impossible to kill with a Light weapon. The responses to this one really bothered me. I fear that there is a serious misconception about how little damage these "pea-shooters" do. A .22 caliber gun is extremely lethal, but because they are usually fired with low grains, they do not cause the raw physical damage that the larger guns do (hell, a .22 cal and a 7.62mm bullet are nearly the same size, but the bullets are dramatically different when you look at the casings/payload). Some of the responses suggested that ameteurs are unlikely to ever hit their targets. This is WAY OFF. The prisons are full of people who were ametures right up to that fateful night that led to their convictions. My example did bring some logical responses about the rule (again, the only thing I was looking for a solution to) being illogical as written, but only a few suggestions.

I really appreciate all of the responses, as you still took the time to respond to my questions, and for that I thank you. I hope this response isn't misunderstood, but as I am still looking for some more suggestions, I did want to respond to what I just read. I did take note of the few ideas that were offered (some of them are worth trying - thanks).

Well, I had a suggestion for this, but probably you didn't see it in the wall of text above, I'll quote myself:

QUOTE (me)
As a house-rule to make light weapons more deadly in the hands of a truly competent shooter would be to increase Power first, and then damage. For example, give a 6L light pistol a max augmented power value of 9 (1.5x base, rounded down), to be increased on the same scale as damage with +1 per two hits. After hitting that power, improve the damage. Or increase BOTH at the same time, with the possible side effects of really powerful bigger guns.


Possibly limit this to light weapons with some weird rationalisation.


Medicineman
QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Oct 21 2010, 01:02 AM) *
That's pretty simple - the bullet only accelerates whilst gas is trapped behind it in the barrel of the gun.

Shorter barrel = less acceleration = less velocity = less momentum = less energy transfered into the target at the moment of impact = less damage.

Shorter Barrel = shorter Range (up to 50 Meters for a light Pistol with according Modifiers)
Longer Barrel= longer Range (MPs with 150 Meters )
Try to hit a Target 50 Meters away with a Light Pistol or with an MP(SMG).
The Range-modifiers are more than enough distinction between shorter and longer Barrel,because less hits= less damage(Light Pistol) and more Hits= more Damage(MPs)
It never (Never Ever !) explains the Difference between 6L and 6M

HokaHey
Medicineman
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Juggler @ Oct 21 2010, 01:06 AM) *
Most of what I just read strayed from my point (which is really just to fish for houserule ideas), so I will reiterate.

1.) Bullets doing no damage - This was about the rolls dropping legitimate gunshot wounds to "no-injury." The armor point is valid, but that only holds true with armor. The example that I put up was for a person without armor dropping a 6L bullet to no-damage because of a BOD check (the arguements about 2 successes being lucky or if a BOD 4 is average is moot). Points were made about how people can press on after taking gunshot injuries, but even with those examples, the person was actually injured. I am not trying to attack the rule, as this is just a (great) game, but rather to see if anyone had ideas to reflect logic (not necessarily realism - after all, we are using magic) in a house rule.

Wounds don't represent injury, they represent a specific class of injury with a significant effect on functioning. You can be bleeding, but if it isn't +1 TN or 1/10 of dying it doesn't go on the damage track.

QUOTE
2.) Seems impossible to kill with a Light weapon. The responses to this one really bothered me. I fear that there is a serious misconception about how little damage these "pea-shooters" do. A .22 caliber gun is extremely lethal, but because they are usually fired with low grains, they do not cause the raw physical damage that the larger guns do

This seems to express a serious misconception about how to reason about deadliness—to the extent that you can divorce the lethality of the gun from the typically-used ammunition, the only reasonable measure of the deadliness of the weapon itself is how hard you can club someone over the head with it.

QUOTE
Some of the responses suggested that ameteurs are unlikely to ever hit their targets. This is WAY OFF.

That's simply factually wrong. Trained police departments record hit percentage in combat situations as, IIRC, in the range of 5%.

~J
kzt
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 21 2010, 05:07 AM) *
Try to hit a Target 50 Meters away with a Light Pistol or with an MP(SMG).

50 meter hit with an SMG is no problem. I can get ~50% hits at 100 meters with a G22.
Medicineman
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 21 2010, 02:57 PM) *
50 meter hit with an SMG is no problem. I can get ~50% hits at 100 meters with a G22.


smile.gif
Sorry I'm not talking Real Life.
I'm talking Rules
(And Yes the Rules say that its very much easier to hit a Target with a SMG than with a Pistol
So You'll be having more Net Hits = more Damage)

with more Net Dances
Medicineman
kzt
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 21 2010, 07:27 AM) *
That's simply factually wrong. Trained police departments record hit percentage in combat situations as, IIRC, in the range of 5%.

Across the US, it's more like 30%. Well trained departments get up into the 60% during the day, dropping to 45% at night.
http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/2005/0...lved-shootings/
Kagetenshi
Huh. Well then, time to update my sources.

Still well lower than SR accuracy, but not quite as compelling.

~J
kzt
Most police shooting are at less than 10 yards. Unlike SR, RW pistol accuracy drops dramatically at range and it's even more of a drop if the shooter is moving. (that is rapid fire accuracy - taking a few seconds for a shot a decent stationary shooter can still get hits way out there with a pistol).

When you get into military combat the hit rates drop hugely, because the military can and does use area fire or suppression fire with belt-fed machine guns and the ranges are often hundreds of meters against fleeting targets.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 21 2010, 09:44 PM) *
Huh. Well then, time to update my sources.

Still well lower than SR accuracy, but not quite as compelling.

~J


Actually if you make excessive use of cover, the accuracy in SR3 isn't that great. With +4 cover, you're at a 6 even at point blank with smartgun. Without smartgun, that's an 8. At greater range it goes up even more.

In all of my SR3 campaigns, most of the shooting done was against TNs over 6, the most common TN being 8 (for shooting with optics at a target with cover). Even people with many dice start to miss when you have to roll 6s and higher. People with few dice miss a lot. We actually also had a house-rule that you could always dodge, even when unaware. That represented lucky movement by the target, for instance when being sniped he would bend down to tie his shoes just in the right moment. Since enemies did it, too, it was mostly fair. That reduced hit percentages even more.

The only way to reliably reduce TNs at that point was using tracers or incendiary rounds with full-auto.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Oct 22 2010, 04:52 AM) *
Actually if you make excessive use of cover, the accuracy in SR3 isn't that great. With +4 cover, you're at a 6 even at point blank with smartgun. Without smartgun, that's an 8. At greater range it goes up even more.

In all of my SR3 campaigns, most of the shooting done was against TNs over 6, the most common TN being 8 (for shooting with optics at a target with cover). Even people with many dice start to miss when you have to roll 6s and higher.

Sure, they miss—almost 40% of the time with 6 dice against TN 8. Of course, 6 dice are achievable with a skill of 3, and at least in my experience 12-die attacks are common, which brings the miss rate down to about 16.5%. Even at the lower skill, we're still talking fairly high accuracy.

~J
Dhuul
This has been the topic of vivid discussions at our sr3-table. as we just wanted to keep playing without bringing too much accounting into our game, we just did what Medicineman suggestest here: we increased the damage of all hold-outs and light pistols by one level. then they would deal moderate damage but still be easy to withstand when wearing an armored vest (or anything similar). this seemed both more realistic and easy to adapt into a preferably easy flow of gaming at our table. if your then bring different types of ammunition into play, a light pistol is capable of dealing damage, yet is not as great a thread as a heavy pistol might be.
This keeps the game balanced and makes light pistols and hold-outs less ridiculous. try this and if you still don't like it, you might have to be more drastic. we used this easy system and it worked out quite well.

The main problem is that of balancing between game mechanics and realism, which i think is handled pretty well in the original sr3 rules and improved by increasing the damage as explained above.
Juggler
QUOTE (Dhuul @ Oct 23 2010, 03:37 AM) *
This has been the topic of vivid discussions at our sr3-table. as we just wanted to keep playing without bringing too much accounting into our game, we just did what Medicineman suggestest here: we increased the damage of all hold-outs and light pistols by one level. then they would deal moderate damage but still be easy to withstand when wearing an armored vest (or anything similar). this seemed both more realistic and easy to adapt into a preferably easy flow of gaming at our table. if your then bring different types of ammunition into play, a light pistol is capable of dealing damage, yet is not as great a thread as a heavy pistol might be.
This keeps the game balanced and makes light pistols and hold-outs less ridiculous. try this and if you still don't like it, you might have to be more drastic. we used this easy system and it worked out quite well.

The main problem is that of balancing between game mechanics and realism, which i think is handled pretty well in the original sr3 rules and improved by increasing the damage as explained above.


Thank you for the suggestion. I like it. It is simple and logical (looking for logic, not necessarily realism). I will try making all L firearms M's and see how that does.

An idea also came across my table recently for dealing with weapon severity that looks to be working pretty well. The damage levels for the weapon vs. the structure (BOD) of the characer is only part of what would determine the severity of a weapon. The severity also is controlled by how vital whatever was actually struck (flesh vs. organ, etc.). An inch to the left in the exact same hit location could make the difference between a flesh wound and a short story in the obituary column. The actual idea was that for each damage roll that is made, a simple 2d6 is rolled. Double ones drops the damage level by one rank (minimum Light), but a 6 result increases the rank by one, and double 6's jumps the damage level by two rankings. As our group uses hit locations, our rule would be modified to 1d6 for arms/legs, 2d6 for center mass, and 3d6 for head wounds. Playtesting this seems to work nicely. This roll is done after the BOD check, so it only comes into play once an injury has been rolled out.

Telion
I've found those weapons to be plenty deadly in the right hands and against the right targets. These weapons were really not meant to be used against anyone with armor.

Try using flechette ammunition to boost your dmg code up, or using called shots to help boost your dmg code. Using both nets a Serious wound.

Also gaining surprise on your target can prevent them from soaking the dmg, since these items have high concealability you'll find it easier to create situations where you can draw and fire before the opponents.

Feel free to use others suggestions, though now I have a new mission to force the runners to dress up as lone star with light pistols as their only gear.
Juggler
You really should read the entire thread, I repeatidly state that I am talking about their effectiveness against UNARMORED opponents. I am not confused that a .22cal bullet won't go through body armor. The thread was to look for ideas on house rules to deal with the fact that the damage code part didn't make sense. The power rating (the only thing that really gets challenged by the armor value) is not where I had an issue.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Juggler @ Oct 23 2010, 12:01 AM) *
Thank you for the suggestion. I like it. It is simple and logical (looking for logic, not necessarily realism). I will try making all L firearms M's and see how that does.


It's a good Idea and while You're about to improve SR3 consider raising the Damage of Knifes to M too.
Its ridiculous if you make more damage with your bare Fist(M-Stun)than with a Knife(L- Physical)
(and just for Bookkeeping and because its even more Streamlining
Our Change was :Holdouts 6L / Lt Pistols &Automatic pistols 6M smile.gif )
with an even more streamlined Dance
Medicineman
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 23 2010, 02:48 AM) *
It's a good Idea and while You're about to improve SR3 consider raising the Damage of Knifes to M too.

The more appropriate change would probably be lowering unarmed damage to L (with maybe Trolls getting to keep M), though that's pretty harsh on unarmed adepts.

~J
Juggler
Excellent suggestions (both). I will try both ideas with my team. Thanks!
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