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SleepIncarnate
This is an offshoot of the question about using a rifle as a firearm in close combat, but not the same topic. The basic question here is this:

QUOTE (SleepIncarnate @ Oct 20 2010, 08:13 PM) *
While we're on the topic, related but different question: if his first reaction was to use the rifle to butt stroke the ghoul, would he use his longarms skill or have to default for not having exotic melee weapon: longarms?

So there's the question, when using any kind of ranged weapon (rifle, pistol, automatic, etc) as a melee weapon (i.e. pistol whip, butt stroke, etc), what skill would you roll? The ranged weapon skill? Clubs? Unarmed? Exotic Melee Weapon: (Insert Ranged Weapon Here)?

We already have the first answer in that thread:
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 20 2010, 08:15 PM) *
It's a club, AFAIK. You and your dirty military terminology.

So now everyone else's turn, ready, discuss.
Yerameyahu
It's definitely not the ranged weapon skill.

A lot of these 'pistol adept' builds mention Melee Hardening to beat people with their pistols, so maybe those people can chime in with their experience. smile.gif
Sephiroth
This is answered in the Improvised Weapons table on pg 17 of Arsenal. Pistol and rifle butt are both listed as using the clubs skill. I presume the same logic holds for all other ranged weapons in melee.
Yerameyahu
Remember to screw the player over if they don't have melee hardening! biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
Or don't, since melee hardening is kind of a dumb concept anyway. Pistols tend to have drop safeties already. Guns may not really be designed with blocking vibroblades in mind, but frankly I'm at a loss as to what you could do to one that would change that fact. Barrels and action aren't exactly known for being fragile considering the forces they have to contend with by design, after all. As long as you're using the stock and not the barrel I don't really see myself penalizing someone for clocking a ghoul. Just don't go match shooting after dueling an adept.
Yerameyahu
Psh. Dial the serious down. wink.gif
Whipstitch
Oh, stuff it. It's a fair point to bring up in an improvised weapons thread. I do not appreciate being scolded.
Yerameyahu
See, that's the serious that I'm talking about. smile.gif My post was quite obviously sarcastic, dude. You should never 'screw the player over'.
Whipstitch
I know it was tongue in cheek, but I chimed in anyway. All I ask is that you do not tell me what to do. We have gone over this before.
Yerameyahu
Jesus Christ. In fact, I didn't. I said to dial the serious down. That's fundamentally incompatible with telling you not to chime in, because you can't dial it *down* if you don't say anything. And it was 100% sarcastic, right down to the giant smile and exclamation point. Obviously, you never 'screw over' the player, especially for not having something from a splatbook.

Oooh, ninja-edit. Sneaky. smile.gif Anyway, didn't you just tell me what to (not) do? So hypocritical! wink.gif
Whipstitch
The difference is that you stepped on my toes first. I was commenting on melee hardening. I think it's dumb and said why. You say I'm being too serious. That's about me. I dislike that. I ask that you don't comment about me in the future.
Yerameyahu
So unfair. Why should I be the one to change? smile.gif Well, that was fun.

Another ninja-edit! Man, if anyone went back and read this, they'd have a completely different idea about what actually happened. smile.gif
Whipstitch
Whatever. I don't like ignoring people, particularly when 99.9999% of their posts are constructive but it was a simple request.
KarmaInferno
Wow, um, there's waay too much hypersensitivity right now.

Can we all take a step back and a deep breath?

It's just a forum conversation.




-k
KarmaInferno
I can see melee hardening doing things like adding in a toughened floating shroud over the barrel and receiver area to strike with, anchored to areas of the firearm not directly involved with how accurate the firing is.




-k
Whipstitch
He upset me, I posted something, decided I didn't like the way I put it and edited it quickly. Now he's acting like I said something completely different than what I initially said. It's just that I don't like people saying I'm taking things too seriously or that I'm too sensitive or whatever. I don't think he said anything really terrible or that this is really a big deal. I don't even think he means I shouldn't post, (which he seems to think that I think) but either way I don't appreciate him telling me to "dial down the serious." Anyway, he can continue to say stuff, I can continue to not listen to it. The system works, people shouldn't have to worry about it.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* It's almost like you're taking being told you're taking things too seriously too seriously. smile.gif And you did, twice, completely change your post after I responded. I didn't say you did it maliciously; it's just funny that, twice in a row, my replies now don't match. I wasn't attacking you, at any point. I'm sorry it bothered you so much.
KarmaInferno
Whatever.

It's actually kind of funny seeing a "No you!" "No YOU!" argument in forums. I have to be honest, it's a little childish looking, I got a serious urge to do the "I don't care who started it, do you want me to pull this car over?" shtick.

Back to melee and ranged weapons?



-k
Yerameyahu
Well, it's basically settled: Arsenal, p17. Clubs, like I thought. smile.gif

And you should totally pull this thread over, KarmaInferno. I need to use the bathroom. biggrin.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 20 2010, 11:11 PM) *
Whatever.

It's actually kind of funny seeing a "No you!" "No YOU!" argument in forums. I have to be honest, it's a little childish looking, I got a serious urge to do the "I don't care who started it, do you want me to pull this car over?" shtick.


That'd be a great idea if you like making things worse, I guess.
Mayhem_2006
There sure are a lot of posts here that don't actually contribute to the discussion.

Do you folks just like to listen to the little clicky noise the keys make, or what? if so, just open up a notepad doc instead of clogging up the forums.

****

Back to the topic of melee hardening. Sure, the bulk of the hardware is built for serious stresses, but have a troll pound on a heavily armoured drone with a shotgun butt and I'm pretty sure that a standard butt would start to get damaged pretty quick.

Or parry an incoming club with a rifle held like quarterstaff and there is every chance of bending the barrel slightly out of true.

Or having the incoming blow strike the trigger guard and thus squashing it, bending the external trigger mechanism (if there is one) and making the weapon impossible to fire manually. Of jamming the selector switch. Or putting the sights out of true. Or bend the guide rails so that you cant use the external mounts until they've been repaired. Damage the threads so that you can't screw on a silencer. Bash a revolver cylinder out of true and it may no longer rotate reliably. etc etc. Even a temporary inconvenience like striking the magazine release catch so that your mag drops onto the floor.

I'd cheerfully apply any of these to a glitching melee test in which a firearm is being used, on top of any effect that would inconvenience them more immediately. Wheras if they take melee hardening, I'd only apply the same glitches as I would to somebody wielding a club.

And lets not forget that SR guns are quite often packed full of (sometimes expensive) electronics. Certainly anyone with anything on an external mount would be crazy to smack somebody upside the head with it.
Marcus
The computer point is a good one. They have computerized guns, but all the first couple generation tend to break when your actually fired them. Now I'm sure that computer are way more rugged then before but its still a good point. Melee Hardening is not expensive, no reason not to add on there if you see your character actually has the club skill for use with Pistols. I remember there is a stated NPC who has his Calvary deputy made into a weapon focus 4 for just for clubbing people lol.
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