Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: How Common Are Mages in the Military?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Mercer
The standard issue topic got me thinking, what sort of magical resources do the various militaries (UCAS, CAS, Sioux, and so on) bring to the table? It's one thing to have an entire line company outfitted in Milspec armor, but if one mage can drop them all with a Stunball and then you got 20-odd enemy combatants running around in brand new Milspec suits, that would be a problem.

I imagine that all of the militaries in SR have an asymetrical warfare strategy, and part of this would include how to engage smaller guerilla forces with greater magical resources than they (which is likely to include runner teams, so is perhaps an more apt area of speculation than strategies for force-on-force). How to SR military units avoid being ice cream for freaks against the magical (or paranormal) enemy?
Yama King
Mages in the military are probably rarer than in the corps. The average mage can earn much more in the corps than working for the government.

I can see them as a special "MageCorp" that loans individual mages to units where the magical threat is high.
Karoline
QUOTE (Yama King @ Oct 22 2010, 10:39 AM) *
Mages in the military are probably rarer than in the corps. The average mage can earn much more in the corps than working for the government.

I can see them as a special "MageCorp" that loans individual mages to units where the magical threat is high.

That sounds fairly reasonable to me. The military keeps a 'stable' of mages (All joined in the same magical group of course) that they send out to places as required as opposed to attaching one to every company/battalion/squad. Nice thing is that with astral projection they could get there for some stuff fairly quickly while their body is transported to a predetermined location via jet.

There would likely be several home bases for these people to try and keep them close to as many important locations as possible, so it isn't like you have 500 mages in DC, but more like 100 in Florida, 100 in NY, 100 in DC and so on.

I do agree though, military is likely to have a lower concentration than corps or shadows since those who aren't legal are in the shadows, and those who are legal would rather take a cushy job in a corp than risk their life in the military.
Aku
I would agree that mages would most likely be kept as a separate branch of the military, away from army/navy/marines. Training would be less physical, obviously.
etherial
QUOTE (Yama King @ Oct 22 2010, 11:39 AM) *
Mages in the military are probably rarer than in the corps. The average mage can earn much more in the corps than working for the government.


OTOH, Corps probably pay more for Security Mages with Military Training, since they'll integrate better into existing structures and pay attention to procedure.
Halabis
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 22 2010, 11:06 AM) *
Training would be less physical, obviously.



Why would you say this? Magical potential is equaly likely to manifest in a physicaly fit person than in a bookish nerd. Also, the military would want all of its people to be in peak physcial condition, so I assume they would get the same physical conditioning as any other soldier. I would also expect the percentage of magicaly active peopel to be roughly the same as in the regular populace, around 1% of all soldiers.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Halabis @ Oct 22 2010, 05:34 PM) *
Why would you say this? Magical potential is equaly likely to manifest in a physicaly fit person than in a bookish nerd. Also, the military would want all of its people to be in peak physcial condition, so I assume they would get the same physical conditioning as any other soldier. I would also expect the percentage of magicaly active peopel to be roughly the same as in the regular populace, around 1% of all soldiers.


And likely along the same scale as pilots - generally commissioned officers.
Aku
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 22 2010, 11:44 AM) *
And likely along the same scale as pilots - generally commissioned officers.



I'm not saying they're LESS physically fit, only that the training is going to be less physically rigorous. I.E. that 10 mile run in the AM might be a 5 mile run, etc etc. You will likely want to keep the weapons training, and assuming that the military mages are doing research primarily, and defense/patrols secondary ala a corp mage, something needs to give for time.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 22 2010, 10:54 AM) *
I do agree though, military is likely to have a lower concentration than corps or shadows since those who aren't legal are in the shadows, and those who are legal would rather take a cushy job in a corp than risk their life in the military.


The motivation of people who join the military isn't generally running towards high pay and a cushy job. Folks join the military for many reasons but pay isn't generally a factor unless the peson is out of other options.
Yama King
QUOTE
OTOH, Corps probably pay more for Security Mages with Military Training, since they'll integrate better into existing structures and pay attention to procedure.


Would the military let a mage leave the magical group? I assume they would retain DNA samples and such on any mages leaving Govt service. Kinda like a CIA agent that knows too much.

I figure they are pressured into making their military/government jobs for life.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 22 2010, 06:45 PM) *
I'm not saying they're LESS physically fit, only that the training is going to be less physically rigorous. I.E. that 10 mile run in the AM might be a 5 mile run, etc etc. You will likely want to keep the weapons training, and assuming that the military mages are doing research primarily, and defense/patrols secondary ala a corp mage, something needs to give for time.


No no - what I mean is that due to their rarity and skillset, they would be treated as pilots are - and most pilots are commissioned officers IIRC.
WyldKnight
Ninja'd heh.

I highly doubt they would force them to stay in. Once that gets around no one would want to join the military
AppliedCheese
I would envision it as its own aspect of warfare, and therefore, its own entire branch of the military. Think air force, but with magic. I would see them being used in their own specialized version of warfare (think what 500 coordinated mages could do at once), with supporting the other arms being one of their branch missions. So, 50 mages might be dedicated to gaining local magical superiority (meaning we crush all non-approved astral movement in the area), with those left over being parceled out in the magical equivalent of CAS.

For instance, in asymmetric warfare, Seattle might always have 12 mages "on patrol" in the astral, hunting down signs of activity that might threaten UCAS assets, and tasked with the astral destruction of anything that attempts to magic UCAS forces. I would see lots of spirits being used for this. Then, if the time and personnel permit, some mages might be assigned in sorties to directly support units.

A sub barnch of the Mage Force would deal in magical protection, and there would certainly be a Magical Assets Defeat Cell, which would focus on common soldier ways of beating the magebomb. I'm sure they'd come up with some crafty ways. or, when that fails, there's always FAB III.
Knight Saber
I'd imagine the military tests all its recruits for magical potential... lots of people have no idea they have it. That'd get the military a fair amount of mages who are interested in military service (that's why they joined).

They probably recruit mages the way they do doctors... both are highly educated positions where you can make a lot of money in the private sector, but they still do manage to recruit doctors. Not everyone is motivated strictly by money. Being a military mage would get you travel, adventure, authority... a lot of corp mage work is boring stuff, if you look at it. "Four years of service and we'll pay for your thaumaturgic education!"
Mercer
I agree they'd be commissioned officers (perhaps warrant officers at the minimum, for the physical adept with astral perception). Pilots are good example of the type of training, the difference being that while a pilot is responsible for a 22m nuyen.gif aircraft, the mage is a pilot the craft in one, pretty much.

I remember a line in a sourcebook-- or a fever dream after eating some bad guac-- about how magical types were treated differently in different armies. Aztlan (or maybe Sioux) tended to favor mages and phys ads in command positions, where the UCAS tended to treat them as a special weapons asset to be put into existing command structures.

Part of it depends on how common you want mages to be. If they're rare, then there might be a mage at the battalion or regimental level, kind of like a chaplain (minus the counseling, plus the summoning 3 meter tall rock men). Ideally, at minimum, you'd have somebody who could fill the magical/astral role at the company level (for combat units), whether it was a mage, adept, or phys ad with some astral abilities-- just someone who wouldn't be ice cream for the first magical freak to walk by.

My immediate thoughts on magical groups would be that higher level membership would probably be dependent on the enlistment term, perhaps even offered as part of a reenlistment bonus. (Once somebody reups a second time, they're likely going career.) Ditto on military mages being highly sought after in the corporate world.

I would agree that Corp mages probably have it better than military mages, but that those that choose the military aren't going solely by the benefits package-- although it should be noted that as commissioned officers in a specialized MOS, the benefits would not be insignificant. If you think about it, a mage joins up at about 20, does 20 years in the military and retires probably at the rank of colonel (if not higher) with full benefits. Then, at the age of 40 has another 25 years of lucrative work in the private sector. That's not a bad gig.
Makki
dishonorable discharge for whatever reason and deserting, because you can't stand the dictatorial structures are 2 of the very few reason for the awakend to run the shadows.
sabs
There are other reasons. Perhaps you're a Rat Shaman whose personality is well suited to Rat, but not well suited to a Corp. Or you're an eco-terrorist. There are plenty of reasons for a Mage to run the shadows.
Critias
I'd say mages are a natural fit for Warrant Officer-type status.
Summerstorm
AND... don't forget the spirits. Especially if you have some mages with either some war-like tradition (or an "enlightened" one), they might be required to bind their maximum amount of Guardian (and Guidance, respectively) spirits and lend them to mundane units for magical protection.

So a single (good) mage could sit in camp and do astral survey/hunting missions, while his five guardian spirits (looking like some WW2 veteran with unearthly foggy glow) following different units and fight alongside them, following the order of the respective leaders while maintaining magical guard.

Hell, they even might provide speed-boost and concealment.

So ONE mage could provide these for about 5*6 people constantly. The one thing is that the forceful binding costs much karma and prevents him from getting better (and maybe psychologically burning him out with time)
Mercer
Unless the Military adopts the Kash for Karma rules, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish entirely. smile.gif

I could see the mage basically putting watchers out with every unit on a line and then responding astrally when one gets squashed, or in the event of multiple squashings, zipping along the line with his or her cadre of spirits, dispatching them as needed in trouble spots.
Neurosis
Desire to stat a UCAS Army Wagemage rising...rising...
Neurosis
-glitch-
Redcrow
While I could certainly envision a place for the combat mage within the military among the rank and file grunts on the battlefield, I can't help but think that a mage who specializes in Mental Manipulations would be of even greater value in the area of military intelligence.
Shinobi Killfist
I think fields of fire dealt with this issue, but I have misplaced my fields of fire so I can't look it up. Even at the 1% level they'd be fairly rare, sure maybe 20,000 in a big military but at the 1 in a 100 level you wont have them with every squad. They probably have more specialized duties as well with will draw their numbers away so they probably won't even be in every company. And depending on how you interpret that 1%, like how many of those 1% are mages of any worth while magical potential it will get worse. Maybe 1 in every Battalion, but with a certain percentage set aside for special duties. Like special forces, intelligence etc.
Angelone
In FoF it said mages were rarely used to blow the enemy up, they were used to summon spirits, and build hasty fortifications with spells and spirits. They were used mainly in defensive rolls except some such as SF mages.
Nath
QUOTE
New Seattle, page 78 (circa August 2060)
The Metroplex Guard has four - count them, four - magicians, one for each combat battalion and one assigned to the command regiment.
When General Colloton assumed command, she brought in a detachment of forty magicians - almost two-thirds of the First Infantry Division's entire magical force.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aku @ Oct 22 2010, 11:45 AM) *
I'm not saying they're LESS physically fit, only that the training is going to be less physically rigorous. I.E. that 10 mile run in the AM might be a 5 mile run, etc etc. You will likely want to keep the weapons training, and assuming that the military mages are doing research primarily, and defense/patrols secondary ala a corp mage, something needs to give for time.


Well, you really want your magical support guys to be in the same physical shape as the Frontline specialists, otherwise the majority of a unit is holding up for the less physically fit component. You train everyone to the same standards or you get people killed... that is just how it is... wobble.gif
Mercer
On the other side of that (so to speak), you'd have military mages who have to pass Astral PFTs (or AFT's, I guess). Something about a cadre of magicians having to run through an astral obstacle course while under the watchful eye of a spirit of man in the form of R. Lee Ermy is humorous to me.

@Nath: Good find. I don't have New Seattle, but does it say how many troops are in the First Infantry Division or how the Metroplex Guard regiment is structured?
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 23 2010, 10:34 AM) *
Well, you really want your magical support guys to be in the same physical shape as the Frontline specialists, otherwise the majority of a unit is holding up for the less physically fit component. You train everyone to the same standards or you get people killed... that is just how it is... wobble.gif


I agree for somethings like jogging. But at the same time you only have X hours a day to train. If 50% of that is for magical training something is going to slide. Maybe hand to hand combat, maybe firearms, but even mages can't get more hours out of the day. And with drain, magic is at least as demanding on the body as physical training so you can't just tack it on the end because you wont be suing your body anymore.
Karoline
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 23 2010, 12:03 PM) *
I agree for somethings like jogging. But at the same time you only have X hours a day to train. If 50% of that is for magical training something is going to slide. Maybe hand to hand combat, maybe firearms, but even mages can't get more hours out of the day. And with drain, magic is at least as demanding on the body as physical training so you can't just tack it on the end because you wont be suing your body anymore.

Obviously you're forgetting about those spells that let you go without sleep and food. They don't have to waste time going to mess, and they don't have to waste time in bed. Thus they can actually get more hours out of a day.

Not that they are likely to do this long term due to the risk of addiction.
CanadianWolverine
QUOTE (Knight Saber @ Oct 22 2010, 11:18 AM) *
I'd imagine the military tests all its recruits for magical potential... lots of people have no idea they have it. That'd get the military a fair amount of mages who are interested in military service (that's why they joined).


This is the way I see it as well due to playing XCOM and testing my recruits and veterans for their psi stats. Then they would get labelled canon fodder, special ops resistant, or psi oversight and support to be kitted out accordingly. Cannon fodder would basicly get nothing so they would be easier for my side to kill if the aliens felt like controlling them rather than shooting them ... sucks to be them walking point so the special ops guys get all the kills and the psi ops get to do a mind control chain on the aliens from back in the safety of the transport. biggrin.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 23 2010, 12:06 PM) *
Obviously you're forgetting about those spells that let you go without sleep and food. They don't have to waste time going to mess, and they don't have to waste time in bed. Thus they can actually get more hours out of a day.

Not that they are likely to do this long term due to the risk of addiction.



Eating doesn't take long and there are plenty of drugs to keep you awake as well so mundanes can keep at it just as long and with similar side effects. But I think my point is more about hours till exhaustion. Your body can only train so far before it starts doing more harm than good. Magic actually causes stun and physical damage, which puts a big limit on how much you can do in a day. I am not sure I want to get my ass kicked on the mat after practicing my levitate spell for the last 2 hours. This is assuming something like special forces where this training is needed. I am sure plenty of mages will be in the same physical training level as a staff sergeant or whatever, since training does not take up much of their time. And they will need similar levels of physical skill in combat.
Critias
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 23 2010, 09:34 AM) *
Well, you really want your magical support guys to be in the same physical shape as the Frontline specialists, otherwise the majority of a unit is holding up for the less physically fit component. You train everyone to the same standards or you get people killed... that is just how it is... wobble.gif

Ideally, sure. But even in today's Army, you'll find a whole lot leaner, meaner, more physically fit guys in the infantry than you will a lot of support positions; the guys who know their lives will depend on their fitness just naturally take it more seriously than the guys who are working in the chow line or serving as a quartermaster or whatever.

If your mages aren't serving on the front line, alongside the tip-of-the-spear guys, then they won't be slowing them down.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 23 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Ideally, sure. But even in today's Army, you'll find a whole lot leaner, meaner, more physically fit guys in the infantry than you will a lot of support positions; the guys who know their lives will depend on their fitness just naturally take it more seriously than the guys who are working in the chow line or serving as a quartermaster or whatever.

If your mages aren't serving on the front line, alongside the tip-of-the-spear guys, then they won't be slowing them down.



But if you are going to use them in a direct support role (Where the Combat Mages will Shine), they will often need to be "at the tip of the spear" as you so eloquently put... at that point, they damn well better be able to pull their own weight, or they will be dead... I do not know about you, but if my life depends upon those around me, and their life depends upon me, then I (and they, hopefully) will strive to be equal to the task... smokin.gif
Nath
QUOTE (Mercer @ Oct 23 2010, 06:52 PM) *
@Nath: Good find. I don't have New Seattle, but does it say how many troops are in the First Infantry Division or how the Metroplex Guard regiment is structured?

Nothing on that. The books do state the Task Force Seattle numbered 5,000. My guess would be the 1st Infantry Division is not going to be bigger than it is currently (20'000), but may be smaller. With a number of magicians higher than 60 and a number of soldiers lower than 20'000, the rate would be 3% or above. There also should be some adepts which are not included in magicians detachment if they can't patrol the astral or cast spells.
Also, the text says Colloton task force came with a detachment of 40 magicians. If the Task Force included detachments from special force units, their adepts and magicians may not be counted among the 40.
Nerdynick
As far as why awakened would join the military, they'd get one heck of a magical group for the purposes of initiation. I think lots would join just for that.

Also, I'd join just cause I'd get to pin pentagrams (or whatever the insignia would be for the magical branch of the military) to my lapels. But what do I know, I'm still in JROTC. nyahnyah.gif

On a side note, I can see their drill heavily involving military sabers simply because they could use them as weapon foci on the astral. If this is the case, their combat training will probably focus more on teaching them how to use the sword they carry than hand-to-hand combat.

Since someone brought up that the 1% of the population that is awakened includes everybody with even the smallest amount of magical ability, I think that those who are magic 1 or 2 would probably get placed on the front line. Their abilities don't endear them command most likely, so they would probably be combat mages throwing around AoEs for battlefield control/suppressing fire.

As far as the thaumaturgical branch of the military's training goes, I think they would probably have a lot of focus on ritual magic, but thats just conjecture.

And I'm not sure what the military would do with some of the more esoteric traditions out there. Same goes for adepts.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 23 2010, 02:09 PM) *
But if you are going to use them in a direct support role (Where the Combat Mages will Shine), they will often need to be "at the tip of the spear" as you so eloquently put... at that point, they damn well better be able to pull their own weight, or they will be dead... I do not know about you, but if my life depends upon those around me, and their life depends upon me, then I (and they, hopefully) will strive to be equal to the task... smokin.gif


Yeah, but there's a difference between "pulling your own weight" (being basically fit and healthy with decent endurance), and being buff and athletic.

Support tends towards basic levels of fitness, frontline probably trains harder. So maybe 3-4 for support and 4-5 for frontline.


QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 23 2010, 03:23 PM) *
But what do I know, I'm still in JROTC. nyahnyah.gif


I still have one thing that they told us about being in the JROTC that sticks in my head - that it's possible, if we end up in the military, that we might start a rank or two higher than the baseline, like starting out as a PFC or even Corporal instead of Private. And the first thought that occurred to me was, "Wait, that's supposed to be a BONUS?"


-k
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 23 2010, 12:31 PM) *
Yeah, but there's a difference between "pulling your own weight" (being basically fit and healthy with decent endurance), and being buff and athletic.

Support tends towards basic levels of fitness, frontline probably trains harder. So maybe 3-4 for support and 4-5 for frontline.

I still have one thing that they told us about being in the JROTC that sticks in my head - that it's possible, if we end up in the military, that we might start a rank or two higher than the baseline, like starting out as a PFC or even Corporal instead of Private. And the first thought that occurred to me was, "Wait, that's supposed to be a BONUS?"

-k


I can live with that... The military is more about endurance than sheer physical capacity afterall...

Indeed, with the increase in Rank comes an increase in responsibility...
Ascalaphus
Mages probably have a rather weird place in the hierarchy. They're too rare and too valuable to dismiss just because they can be jerks, or because they have a troublesome mentor spirit. In fact, most of the combat mage style mentor spirits have rather nasty drawbacks, in terms of being an obedient soldier. That which makes a mage more competent also makes him harder to work with.

Add to that, that mages are literally using their life energy to do their job. They might get pretty arrogant uptight about that, the whole "my job is more hardcore than yours, because I literally give of my own life to serve my country" shtick.
AppliedCheese
1 Division (1st infantry in this case) = 4 Brigades.

1 Brigade = 5 Battalions (2 line, one reconnaissance (no, these troops are not any harder/tougher/better than the line, they just are doctrinally placed in a recon/screen role and tend to be lighte ron equipment and numbers due to this) 1 artillery, 1 support battalion)

1 Division = 20 battalions. 8 line, 4 recon, 4 artillery, 4 support.

So, if 65 Mages are 1st ID's complement that is probably distributed as follows:

1 mage per battalion = 20

Addittional mage for line and recon = 12

So, direct assignment is 32 of the 65.

Assume each Brigade HQ maintains 2 mages in specialist/advisory functions (intelligence comes to mind), 2 as Astral Defense, and 2 as a brigade reserve/spirit force. = 24

Division HQ then has 9 mages. 3 in specialist support, 6 as AD and reserve. For grand total of 65.


As such, I wouldn't foresee mages being typically on the frontlines. They are, at the lowest, a battalion asset, and consequently are probably granted the rank of Captain (though everyone knows they aren't REAL captains. No one would assign one to company command for instance. Though presumably as they increase in rank, like doctors, they assume command and advisory roles relating to their specialty.) Said captain would probably be told to either support the battalion as a whole with spirits and other such, be used as the battalion commanders personal magical artillery, or temporarily assigned to support a company during a mission.

Keeping them forward as karl kombat mage risks them too much. We're not used to thinking of it as runners where firefights are really just a handful of quickly exchanged bursts between small groups, but in high intensity military fights, a great deal of your chance of dying is due to random, unfortunate, placement of something lethal by the other side.

If the enemy decides to prep the hills with artillery on a hunch (and most non-western militaries favor the hunch prep during major attacks. Western forces prefer to ID a target, but in high risk situations may do limited "blind" prep), your line mage has just as much chance of dying from a random shell in the foxhole as your rifleman. Ditto for an airstrike, or the ever popular "there's shooting coming from that building. Hose it with machinegun fire. And put a few grenades in it too." You don't risk something that rare to what may just be an unlucky richocet.

Add to this, there is almost certainly going to be a "geek the mage" concept taken to the logical military extremes. Kill the mage equals remove enemy astral abilities. I would certainly keep some of that astral patrol scanning, just waiting for a mage to come out of masking to do his thing. Have a tube with a GPS guided artillery round on call. Your mage spots enemy mage doing his thing via astral. Fire mission.

Guys start going down to powerballs/stunballs on a certain spot? Immediate spirit commitment, via astral. When they ID, they simo materialize and kill the mage.

Really, direct exposure of a mage gains you relatively little benefit compared to a summoning or manipulation mage. He doesn't do anything in combat that a good sniper, machinegunner, etc couldn't do. Used in support, he grants massive bonuses in information, deep strike capability, analysis, and so much more. With the exception of units that live or die on their small unit capabilites (SF mainly), the smart commander would use his mage as a huge combat multiplier, not just a fancy way of killing folks.

Whipstitch
Yeah, as far as pure killing power goes, a lot of a runner magician's advantages are situational and unique to the environments they work in. A gator shaman who knows a bunch of combat spells can't really be disarmed short of throwing a bag over his head and beating him unconscious and the heat he's packing can be parceled out according to the threat. That's a great trick in an environment where you're not always going to be assumed dangerous, (and it's part of why I think Magicians as written are typically overqualified to be 'runners) but if you're tromping around in uniform and just want to provide sustainable firepower or make a big bang and make people duck for cover, then, well, you might as well just have platoon of guys out there with a mortar. It's not like you want to send one man out there on his own into a combat zone anyway, after all.

Anyway, I also suspect Magicians with traditions that allow for Spirits with Magical Guard would be highly valued.
kzt
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 23 2010, 01:37 PM) *
Indeed, with the increase in Rank comes an increase in responsibility...

And pay.
kzt
In terms of the numbers of Magicians, Grimoire (SR1 - Circa 2050) says

One percent of the people in the world can use magic at all. Perhaps 90 percent of those are minor magicians or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with whatever they are. There are mayber three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation.
Karoline
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 23 2010, 11:14 PM) *
In terms of the numbers of Magicians, Grimoire (SR1 - Circa 2050) says

One percent of the people in the world can use magic at all. Perhaps 90 percent of those are minor magicians or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with whatever they are. There are mayber three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation.

Yeah, and 90% of those mages are either runners or corp employed.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 24 2010, 12:14 AM) *
In terms of the numbers of Magicians, Grimoire (SR1 - Circa 2050) says

One percent of the people in the world can use magic at all. Perhaps 90 percent of those are minor magicians or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with whatever they are. There are mayber three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation.


I beleive they still use that same 1% number in the current edition. Which means if what was the USA kept its same population there would be about 200-300,000 mages or about 1/3rd the amount of doctors. That area is broken up differently so each country would have different and likely lower mage numbers. I don't think UCAS has an army of the same proportional size as the US has today so the number of UCAS military mages is probably rather small.
kzt
No, in the current edition they say 1%, but then they have all sorts of minor magical talent stuff to dilute that 1%. SR1 has 0.1% as full Magic 6 trained magicians, with the rest of the 0.9% being less than that but still mages.

As the percentage of mages was supposed to increase as the mana level increased this seems odd.
Karoline
Well, keep in mind that is the number of people who can use magic, not the number of mages. A fair chunk of that number is going to be adepts and a few mystic adepts and a handful of spell knack/spirit knack types.

So 1% awakened, 10% of that with real skill, 30% of that is actually mages, and only around 10% of that (or less) is likely to be in the military. So, pretending that the US population is the same and we're talking the entire US, you're looking at roughly 9k mages in the US military. That's not none, but given the size of the country, that is alot.
Ascalaphus
Add to that the complications caused by Tradition and Mentor spirits. AFAIK, tradition isn't entirely free choice; not every tradition will work for every person.

The military probably favors the Hermetic tradition. It's rational, well-understood and described. Those are people who went to college to learn magic, and they do better in a "straight" environment than say, a Cat Shaman. So the mages attached to more regular armed units will usually be Hermetics.

Of course, mages are too valuable to pass up even if they're in a strange tradition, but certain ones (Black Magic, Native American Shamanism, Shinto, Voodoun) would tend to be considered untrustworthy by the UCAS. The rest is likely assigned to more freewheeling, dress-casual parts of the army.

Mentor spirits are another thing:
Bear +2 to Health, +2 to resist P damage, but berserk rages.
Cat +2 to Illusion and Gymnastics or Infiltration, but issues with incapacitating targets instead of playing with them
Raven +2 to Manipulation and Air spirits, but they can't resist abusing others' misfortune to their own advantage
Shark +2 to Combat and Water spirits, but berserk rages
Trickster +2 to Illusion and Con, but can't resist trickstering, even your allies
Wolf +2 Combat and Beast, but they don't like to retreat
Adversary +2 to Manipulation and +2 to Counterspelling or Banishing, but they don't respond well to orders

I could go on, but the point should be clear; the mentors that provide bonuses relevant to the army often impose a hefty toll on the shaman's behavior as well.

I expect there'll be a lot of officers yearning for the days before the Awakening. Because those insufferable magicians are just too valuable to kick out.
kzt
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 24 2010, 06:31 AM) *
Well, keep in mind that is the number of people who can use magic, not the number of mages. A fair chunk of that number is going to be adepts and a few mystic adepts and a handful of spell knack/spirit knack types.

So 1% awakened, 10% of that with real skill, 30% of that is actually mages, and only around 10% of that (or less) is likely to be in the military. So, pretending that the US population is the same and we're talking the entire US, you're looking at roughly 9k mages in the US military. That's not none, but given the size of the country, that is alot.

No, they had all the highly skilled be real mages. SR1 population was 3-4 billion, so 3-4 million is 0.1%. Adepts and other such minor talents are the other 0.9%.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 23 2010, 09:06 PM) *
And pay.


Tis True... wobble.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012