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shon
I'm GMing my first Shadowrun adventure for new players, and one of them has conjuring skill group at 4 (she's very similar to the occult investigator sample character from the corebook), so I can assume spirits will be a part of the game. I don't expect to include many magical opponents in the adventure so my question is: how powerful spirits really are, assuming they are force 3 or max 4 vs standard grunt opponents.

The rulebook makes it look like they are very powerful against normal weapons, which is my main concern.

I don't want this adventure to look like: encounter 10 hostile gang members. summon spirit. command: destroy the guys. 5 combat turns pass: entire gang dead. The rest of the team goes for a smoke.
But on the other hand I don't want to include a magician with each and every oponent as it won't be very realistic...

Are spirits really that powerful? Would a group 3-5 standard heavy-pistol-armed grunts stand a chance of defeating one without magic and without dying in the process?

And the main question: spirits have many powers. If a player has e.g. one service from the spirit, could that service be: kill those 10 guys, and then the spirit uses engulf, exotic weapon, confusion, accident and any other powers as many times as necessary to kill 10 guys? Or is it: one service = engulf this one guy in fire, end of service?
Because the first way seems really powerful while the second option sounds rather limited.

And summoning a spirit of 3-4 force seems like a rather easy and painless job, it only requires one complex action and force 4 spirit has low chances of getting 2 hits, which means usually the player will have to resist like 2-4 drain max from one summoning. Force 3 spirit will almost always have 1 or 0 hits on the test.

How would you play spirit combat?
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (shon @ Oct 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
Are spirits really that powerful? Would a group 3-5 standard heavy-pistol-armed grunts stand a chance of defeating one without magic and without dying in the process?
It largely depends on tactics and ammunition. A force 4 spirit has immunity to Normal weapons (ItNW) equal to 8 hardened Armor. So each goon with a Ares Predator and normal ammo would have to score 3 net hits to have a chance of harming the spirit. Shotguns or SnS ammo would be much better. Even Ex or Ex˛ would help.

QUOTE (shon @ Oct 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
And the main question: spirits have many powers. If a player has e.g. one service from the spirit, could that service be: kill those 10 guys, and then the spirit uses engulf, exotic weapon, confusion, accident and any other powers as many times as necessary to kill 10 guys? Or is it: one service = engulf this one guy in fire, end of service?
Because the first way seems really powerful while the second option sounds rather limited.
Look at the BBB on p. 186. It largely depends on the wording of the command. "engulf this ganger" is one service as is "kill this group of gangers." On the latter however it is up to the spirit which powers he will use to achieve the goal at the best of its ability.

QUOTE (shon @ Oct 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
And summoning a spirit of 3-4 force seems like a rather easy and painless job, it only requires one complex action and force 4 spirit has low chances of getting 2 hits, which means usually the player will have to resist like 2-4 drain max from one summoning. Force 3 spirit will almost always have 1 or 0 hits on the test.
I wonder why the magician would limit himself to such low force spirits. Most magicians I know either summon force 5+ or if the encounter seems easy just deal with the thread with a stunball, that will floor 10 gangers much more quickly.

Another problem for the summoner you have not yet mentioned is indeed the time it takes for the spirit enters the fray. It takes a complex action to summon one (which now is on the astral plane), then it takes at least a free action to give the command, depending on its complexity. the spirit then has to take a Complex Action to materialize to be able to hit, engulf or whatever the gangers.

If the mage comes prepared with a spirit this wil get ugly very quickly for the gangers.

What power level are you playing anyways? A group of gangers shouldn't be much of a problem for the average band of runners. If you are aiming for a lower power setting, you should consider limiting magical power on the PCs' side.
shon
This is a great response, thanks! Now I understand what I'm facing here. This group I allowed to create standard 400BP characters, although maybe, in retrospect, I should have aimed for more a street level characters as they are mostly new to the game as well (except for one guy who is experienced). But now that they have their PC almost ready it's too late to take it back.
Looks like I'll just have to adjust the power of the opponents.

Great suggestion on the time it takes for the spirit to actually get to work, I haven't thought of that.
Dakka Dakka
Just don't assume that gangers are a dangerous threat. Even CorpSec with proper tactics and equipment will be much more challenging than a bunch of lowlifes. Also assume that every security professional will go by "Geek the mage first" if he can identify him.

While not every opposing faction should have magic at their disposal, the more powerful will have. It needn't even be a mage on site. Wards and awakened plants will seriously hamper astral reconnaissance. As soon as the mage finds out that his ward has been breached he can easily call for HTR backup and/or go looking himself on the astral within seconds. He could then send a spirit of his own on the runners.

This may be too late, but even if you want to do a street level story, I wouldn't go less than 400BP. I'd rather limit the BP spent on resources and Magic. For the mundane street thug maybe reduce the maximum availability for gear. Someone with MBW2, Muscle toner 4 and MilSpec armor (all legal at chargen with the restricted gear quality) would be just as inappropriate to such a campaign a s a skilled mage.

Oh and I totally forgot, welcome the the madhouse that is Dumpshock.
shon
Thanks Dakka, great suggestions. So far I have been a week or so on Dumpshock and I love it already. Great community going on here biggrin.gif
Apathy
Welcome to Shadowrun and to Dumpshock! Here are a few of my thoughts about magical opposition.
  • Corps know that many runner teams will have magic, so depending on the value of the assets that they're protecting you will probably see some 'counters' to mages and spirits.
  • On-site mages are really expensive, so most sites won't have them. At best, a security mage can be 'on-call' and zip to the location via astral movement within a few seconds of an alarm going off. From the astral the mage would be able to provide spell defense, manabolt dual-natured opposition (spirits and percieving mages), and 'spirit bomb' the runners.
  • Low-force spirits and watchers are much cheaper, and can patrol the grounds looking for anyone on the grounds with a magically active aura. They're stupid, and masking will probably fool them, but if you're not masked they'll know to raise an alarm. Remember that a summoning mage always knows if his spirit is destroyed/banished, so mana-bolting the spirit won't keep it from setting off an alarm.
  • Wards are cheap, especially low-force wards. Any sensible company would spread them around all the choke-points. This forces the mage to be astrally percieving constantly or he won't know when he's about to walk through one and set off an alarm. Even if the runner sees the ward in time, if they want to sneak past the mage has to drop all his sustained spells and re-cast them after crossing (possibly incurring more drain). Spirits can be told to bypass the ward via the metaplane, but it costs a service.
  • Even small background counts can make a big difference. Some plants are able to create a couple points of local BC (Moon Lillys, I think?) which can lower a very tough force 6 spirit (or stunbolt) to a surviveable force 4.
Dakka Dakka
I wouldn't bother with watchers. While they are cheap, mechanically they can't really do the job they are assigned to. With 2 dice for assensing tests, the most likely can't know friend from foe, and even against astral perception stealth works, without camouflage or ruthenium though.

The metaplanar shortcut only works, if the conjurer is on the other side of the ward, which then costs a service, or if the spirit has already been on the other side of the barrier. So it is rather less than useful.
Neurosis
QUOTE
Shotguns or SnS ammo would be much better.


Shotguns are NOT better. ItNW counts AP. Shotguns using flechettes have +5 AP.

Unless you are making the assumption that shotguns aren't firing shot, but are firing slugs (which is not my personal default assumption).

QUOTE
I wonder why the magician would limit himself to such low force spirits. Most magicians I know either summon force 5+ or if the encounter seems easy just deal with the thread with a stunball, that will floor 10 gangers much more quickly.


One Stunball = 10 Gangers? Are they all also trainee cheerleaders and forming a human period? GMs should have even the dumbest grunts spread out a little so they're not all in the range of one Stunball.
Dakka Dakka
Yup, I meant shotguns firing slugs.
Yerameyahu
Shotguns always fire slugs by default.
Dakka Dakka
It's kinda counterintuitive though. But I guess they just didn't want to write smoothbore longarms.
Yerameyahu
I agree. smile.gif But it's The Future, and everyone has armor-clothing. To us, a shotgun shoots shot, but meanings change as the world changes. 'Computer' used to mean 'chick who does arithmetic'… whereas now we know that girls can't do math. biggrin.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (shon @ Oct 27 2010, 07:52 AM) *
I don't want this adventure to look like: encounter 10 hostile gang members. summon spirit. command: destroy the guys. 5 combat turns pass: entire gang dead. The rest of the team goes for a smoke. But on the other hand I don't want to include a magician with each and every oponent as it won't be very realistic...

Are spirits really that powerful? Would a group 3-5 standard heavy-pistol-armed grunts stand a chance of defeating one without magic and without dying in the process?

And summoning a spirit of 3-4 force seems like a rather easy and painless job, it only requires one complex action and force 4 spirit has low chances of getting 2 hits, which means usually the player will have to resist like 2-4 drain max from one summoning. Force 3 spirit will almost always have 1 or 0 hits on the test.

How would you play spirit combat?


At force 3 (and even fource 4)- a heavy pistol is going to hurt it. Grenades do wonders too, especially in a confined space. Lastly, 10 gangers will take time to knock out. More than likely they will retreat if being massively out classed. Gangers/mooks do have edge---remember to use it.

Force 5 or 6 will and should be a problem. They run into something like that, they should scatter and ambush later.
Apathy
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2010, 12:06 PM) *
I wouldn't bother with watchers. While they are cheap, mechanically they can't really do the job they are assigned to. With 2 dice for assensing tests, the most likely can't know friend from foe, and even against astral perception stealth works, without camouflage or ruthenium though.

Security mage tells watcher "If you see anyone astrally active, or any other spirit, you come get me." Given the percentage of adepts and mages in the work force, the mage would have to follow up 3 or 4 times per day to check the validity of people walking in or out of the building. Wouldn't work for a magical research facility, but they're likely to have more expensive defenses and higher force (smarter) spirits.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2010, 12:06 PM) *
The metaplanar shortcut only works, if the conjurer is on the other side of the ward, which then costs a service, or if the spirit has already been on the other side of the barrier. So it is rather less than useful.

Mage says "Go back to your metaplane. Turns off his sustained spells and crosses ward. After crossing ward says "Spirit, come here." Wastes a service, but it's the only way for the spirit to get inside the ward without notifying the creator of the ward of the breach.
Makki
QUOTE (shon @ Oct 27 2010, 01:52 PM) *
And summoning a spirit of 3-4 force seems like a rather easy and painless job, it only requires one complex action and force 4 spirit has low chances of getting 2 hits, which means usually the player will have to resist like 2-4 drain max from one summoning. Force 3 spirit will almost always have 1 or 0 hits on the test.

How would you play spirit combat?


as spirits are NPCs it's GM choics how they react. I think the higher the force the superior the spirit feels and won't bother to use any of his precious magic. also almost all powers are single target, it will not be much faster to kill ten grunts with powers. maybe a noxious breath to start, while engaging into close combat. but even a F6 spirit will run out of defense dicepool very fast if focused. so he can't take them alone.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Oct 27 2010, 07:39 PM) *
Gangers/mooks do have edge---remember to use it.

They most definitely do not. There is no such thing as a mook with Edge, at least according to the main rulebook. Edge is reserved for PC's and prime runners.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Oct 28 2010, 06:45 PM) *
They most definitely do not. There is no such thing as a mook with Edge, at least according to the main rulebook. Edge is reserved for PC's and prime runners.
They have Group Edge, a pool equal to their professionality rating.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Oct 28 2010, 10:45 AM) *
They most definitely do not. There is no such thing as a mook with Edge, at least according to the main rulebook. Edge is reserved for PC's and prime runners.


Indeed they do, as Dakka Dakka has pointed out already... smokin.gif
Yerameyahu
'Kill everyone' can easily cost much more than one service, depending on the mood of the spirit (and GM).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 09:22 PM) *
'Kill everyone' can easily cost much more than one service, depending on the mood of the spirit (and GM).


Or it could just be a Single Service... really depends upon the whims of the GM... But generally I would say that it is a Single Service in my game... You will not have any control over HOW the spirits carries out that command however...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 05:22 AM) *
'Kill everyone' can easily cost much more than one service, depending on the mood of the spirit (and GM).
Only if the GM goes against RAW or possibly if you literally mean everyone on the planet.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 186')
The use of combative powers or abilities by a spirit on behalf of its summoner only counts as one service, regardless of the number of foes involved.
Yerameyahu
Like I said, depending on the mood of the spirit and GM. If you've annoyed either, then you could have a spirit using no powers to 'attempt' to fulfill your request.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 29 2010, 01:02 AM) *
Only if the GM goes against RAW or possibly if you literally mean everyone on the planet.


Yes and no. If the 10 gangers are there right then, then sure it is one service. If they are spread out a bit in multiple rooms it might be seen as multiple fights by the spirit.
Dakka Dakka
The line I quoted above does not make an "encounter-based" distinction how many service this constitutes.

@Yerameyahu: Are spirits even capable of doing less than their best?
Critias
If you're primarily concerned about "Kill everyone in the building" being one service (or similarly open ended, large, "go fight them" sort of services), it may seem like a reasonable house rule to make it count as one service per (Force) number of opponents, or something.

Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but if that's your issue, I'm sure (Force of Spirit) or (Force of Spirit + Magic of Summoner) or (+ net hits on Summoning test) or (+ something) could become some sort of formula you cook up as a game balance conceit, to try and find a happy medium between "kill that one guy" and "kill every Knight Errant officer." wink.gif
Yerameyahu
Spirits are certainly capable of not brilliantly using multiple powers to fulfill your request, especially if you've annoyed them. Maybe the spirit enjoys punching, or doesn't realize they're all wearing Fire Protection, or doesn't prioritize targets. smile.gif Even between 'doing the optimal thing' and 'doing the best that it knows', who knows what can happen? (Answer: the GM, hehe.) Theoretically, you can make very specific 'genie-wish' commands, I guess. Obviously, I'm only talking about situations where this would be warranted.
shon
Those are some great suggestions, you're right that the spirits might not be the brightest sapient beings on the planet so they might not do what's optimal to kill 10 grunts and do it one by one, and by then the guys will surely either call backup or just 'geek the mage' as I heard people say smile.gif

I was afraid spirits were far too powerful but now I know that even if they are powerful, there are ways to deal with them and the players going for a smoke while a spirit does all the dirty (wet)work!
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 29 2010, 12:21 AM) *
The line I quoted above does not make an "encounter-based" distinction how many service this constitutes.

@Yerameyahu: Are spirits even capable of doing less than their best?



The line you quoted does not make a distinction one way or the other and is not the total description on services. While it is not limited by foes, it is usually limited by fights. It will handle reinforcements in the same fights, but usually not the next fight. Now if you gave a command kill everyone in that building it will do so. But a command to help you in a fight ends when the fight does, he doesn't keep in fight mode for when you get ambushed a minute later. But the more your demands take advantage of what a service is the more your GM can make your spirits unhappy and uncooperative with you.
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