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Swing Kid
So, you are about to sit down with a Johnson about a job. What kinds of questions do experienced professionals know to ask? What is appropriate, and what should be handled delicatly? Naturally, the nature of the run would play a major role, and so would things like the manner by which the connection was made in the first place. And its not just the questions, its other things that should be considered, like not necessarily taking the ENTIRE team to the meet, not pulling out a video camera to capture the whole thing, etc.

I am interested in the thoughts of experienced runners on this topic.
Yerameyahu
Well, everyone definitely has everything on camera. That's the world of cybereyes, commlinks (cameras in them), and micro-cameras (coin-or-smaller, often disguised).
klinktastic
First thing, if you are meeting with a Mr. Johnson and have been set up with this contact through a mutual Fixer, it's always a good idea to ask the Fixer some basic questions about the Johnson. That way you can find out about attire, demeanor, things they like, dislike, etc. That should give you some nice clues for the actual meet. That's my suggestion.
kjones
Appropriate:
  • Can we get some of the payment up front?
  • What do you know about security/layout/etc.?
  • Can we contact you during the run if something goes wrong?


Inapprorpiate:
  • Who are you?
  • Who are you working for?
  • What is the purpose of this job?


I'm sure others can add to this.
jaellot
As Airheads taught us all, the question "In the Van Hallen split, which side did you take?" should be added to appropriate so you can tell if they are an undercover cop or not. Or Lone Star, as it were.

The way I generally handle the initial meet and greet is that the gang is given a general description of what the run entails. They can ask a few questions, but the J. makes it clear that depending on what is asked they might not be able to answer, in the event they have find others more willing to do the job.

My guys generally make it clear upfront that while they are in the shadows, they do have limits. If this means they don't get hired, then they don't get hired. It gets worked into their general rep. that they excel at "x" sort of gig, but don't ask them to needlessly murder in cold blood so-and-so because it's convenient and profitable, for example.

After all, the J. is looking to hire runners to fulfill a certain job. Make it a mundane task and think through it. For example, if J. neded their yard mowed you wouldn't call a mechanic. And within the realm of lawn care, there might be some crews who do thinks differently. There's the one crew whose mage seems to have both hands full of thumbs, and they are all green, but those guys over there are half the price and will do it now.
Method
In my games the J generally describes the job in vague terms and gives the runners an idea of what it entails ("The job entails extracting a high profile corporate operative..." or "You may be required to neutralize a determined security force..." etc) but will not give any info that would identify the target or the purpose of the run until the runners have agreed to take the job. Basically he provides only enough information that a reasonable price can be negotiated. Once the runners agree to take the job, they are bound by professional courtesy to complete the run (although re-negotiation is sometime prudent).

Runners who agree to take jobs just so they can get the intel and then hit the target for themselves don't tend to live long... devil.gif
Summerstorm
Hm... i do it mostly like Method.

The Fixer should have cleared up the reputation-issue. Pretty much advertising "his" runners, but also checking out if the Johnson is "known" and reliable... that is why he gets a cut.

When the meeting takes place it should already be clear that the Johnson is likely to pay and normaly doesn't sent people into their deaths as well as that the runners normaly take "such runs" (Very basic description) and may have needed specialities. I always pay the fixers a percentage, but seperate from the payment of the runners. If he wants the money he better sends nice, capable people.

Back to the interview:
Good questions are, i guess (if not already covered in the introductionary speech): What do you want done? How much freedom do we have? Any secondary goals/actions we can not take? Any limitations on equipment? How clean do you want it or better: in what style do you want it done?

Then, after they have agreed to the job and get the details: Anythings else you can tell us? (Maybe gets you "estimated details"). Do you have other people working on anything surrounding this job? Make sure they don't cross us/help us. Transfer all the data to us. How and when do we contact you/will you contact us? Payment details (crude haggling). Any wrong clues you like us to set up?


After that: Exchange some codes for the communication (So you know when it is the Johnson contacting you/using the "I am serious code") and if not sure about the Johnson have him transfer the whole sum into some kind of escrow service/trusted third party and give you the advance.

After that you MIGHT check out the Johnson and the impact of your job. (Or just do it, like my group - they have a reputation of being greedy bastards... which DO the job (100%) and don't want to know ANYTHING else).
Game2BHappy
For me it is pretty much what Method/Summerstorm mentioned except the runners often hear some detail after agreeing to the job which they consider a surprise and try to renegotiate. As GM, I roleplay out the issue with them (which allows me to hear their case), give them modifiers to their negotiation roll depending on the quality of it, and either take dice from their roll or add dice to Mr. Johnson's roll to reflect the fact that this a second negotiation for the same job.
Critias
Mr. Johnson in several games I ran featured extensive cosmetic surgery and personachip treatments in order to talk like Christopher Walken, because test study marketing groups had reacted to this obscure twentieth century actor with the desired mixtures of attentiveness and uncontrollable, irrational, fear.

"The trick...is to write up...everything you want Mr. Johnson to say and then? Remove all the, squiggly little punctuation mark thingies and! Any sort of inflection the text should carry or, anything like, that, and then put all of that back! In at random before, you start talking."

And then, when the deal invariably goes poorly, no matter how shitty his actual Skillwires are, and how small his combat dice pool is when he draws his standard company-issue little handgun, they'll all be freaked the fuck out because holy shit holy shit Christopher Walken is shooting a gun at me, and they screw up all their usual combat plans by blasting at him with tremendous overkill, freeing up his actual company security detail to really do a number on 'em.
kzt
Any semi-intelligent wealthy and seemingly legit person hiring people commit a criminal act for him who also wishes the people being hired not have enough data to tie him to the act would not meet anyone who would actually commit the act. That's conspiracy to commit (insert crime here), and now his hired thugs have someone to rat out if they are captured.

However it's traditional in SR.

That being the case, the fixer is normally responsible for at least minimal vetting of the Johnson. This doesn't ensure that the guy isn't a Fed who "made an offer too good to refuse" to your trusty fixer, but that isn't the typical SR trick. (Actually, I don't ever remember even hearing that done by a GM, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.)

So the Fixer tells you where to show up and when, with any useful stuff like how to dress if your characters can't figure that out, and how to contact the Johnson. Generally the Johnson will tell the fixer in general terms what he wants, as otherwise the fixer can't provide a team that will do what he wants to pay for. The Fixer will usually give the Johnson a general idea of what he thinks you can do.

So the team (or at least part) shows up early, looks to see if it's a semi-obvious trap. Assuming not, everyone meets in some back room in a semi-public place. Johnson might have a person protection team, often will not have it in the room. If he has security team it might not be obvious. Nobody brandishes weapons or cast magic. Things are likely to get bad if someone does.

Johnson starts out with generalities, like how much money he's offering and generally what the job is. (I'm offering 250,000 to have a certain file obtained off a particular node in a highly secure corporate data center in the Seattle area in the next week, which will likely require some sort of physical intrusion.) The players might ask some hot button questions like is this target Ares (if one has a connection to Ares that he won't screw) and if the Johnson hits any of the hot buttons everyone apologizes and leaves. If the players agree he provides more details and watches to see how the group seems to feel about the job. (Onion approach). The idea is that the players can walk out with no impact at the start, the further in they go and the more they know the less flexible they are to walk out without impact to their relationship to the fixer.

You can negotiate on pay, but if the general up-front offer and general idea matches the detailed one you have limited flexibility. If he neglected to mention that he needed it done tonight then that's a different matter.

Reputation is everything, but it's the teams reputation to the fixer that is vital. People who get things done with minimal issues are what everyone wants. Teams people want to hire don't talk about what they did or didn't do and who hired them. If they decide to not take a job the Johnson (and fixer) has to feel confident that they will not talk. The Johnson is paying fixer to get things done. People who piss off the Johnson piss off the fixer, and then you don't get any phone calls.
Mesh
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 28 2010, 03:43 AM) *
Any semi-intelligent wealthy and seemingly legit person hiring people commit a criminal act for him who also wishes the people being hired not have enough data to tie him to the act would not meet anyone who would actually commit the act. That's conspiracy to commit (insert crime here), and now his hired thugs have someone to rat out if they are captured.

However it's traditional in SR.

I agree that what you describe goes against intuition. However, (in most cases) the Johnson is not the person who wants you to do something criminal for him. HE is the disposable face of the party who actually wants the job done. You can rat him out, and maybe his Corp will hang him out to dry, but the first thing his replacement is likely to do is ruin your day. This doesn't hold true in all scenarios or all campaigns, but it does explain why it's not such a ridiculous paradigm.

Mesh
Mesh
My favorite runner negotiator was the team leader in Fade to Black, an SR novel. He spits in the Johnson's face, nearly gets into it with the J's security, and tells him that if his team has been lied to or the J hasn't been 100 percent upfront with them, they're going to find him and frag his drek-hole.

You don't have to be limited by a pre-conceived notion of shadow professionalism (at least if you have the skills to back it up). The Fade to Black team had some morals and their own sense of street honor. I recommend the book even though it's 1st Ed. It has a cool street code, neat chars, tons of twists, and some good strategy ideas.

Mesh
Blade
A question I like to ask: "Why hire us instead of [whatever he could have hired to do the job]?"

One thing I like to make clear: "You and me have a contract. You hired me to do that job and I'll do it the best way I can. I know you have things you'd rather hide and if that doesn't prevent me from doing my job, that's fine with me. My client's protection is my first priority. But if you get in my way by your actions or by withholding information, or if the job turns out to be something else than what you told me, then I'm no longer bound by our contract and we'll have to renegotiate."

Other things that are interesting:
- The exact goal of the run ("you want that wallet or what's inside? You want that chip or the data inside?")
- What to do if... (it turns out a megacorp or a dragon is involved, the guy we have to find is dead, the data has been wiped out or published...)
- Should we take initiatives or just stick to the exact mission and ignore everything else? (this has the advantage of showing Mr. J. that you CAN ignore everything else if required).
- Are there things we shouldn't stick our noses in? (Also shows Mr. J. that you're concerned about his privacy)
- What opposition can be expected.
Ascalaphus
Usually the Johnson wants the team to succeed, so it's in his interests to share pertinent information about the target with the team. On the other hand, too much detail can give the runners a clear idea of who the Johnson represents and how he got his information, which is also bad. There's a sweet spot somewhere that the GM needs to figure out; the Johnson isn't there to deliberately underinform the PCs just to make them sweat (unless he has ulterior motives).

The Johnson will be disguised, at least if he's professional. Runners with cybereyes can easily record the meeting, and with cyberears record what was said. This can't be helped, really. The Johnson simply can't afford to name or implicate his own boss in any way.

Assensing might be a touchy topic; I'm not sure if doing it is visible. Disguising your aura is hard though. Higher-level Johnsons will have some measure of magical protection, if only to make sure no mind-magic is used on him by the Runners. Maybe the meeting takes place where there's substantial background count?

Etiquette in meetings isn't about using the right fork; it's about showing that you understand the rules of the game, and that you're a reliable partner. Cleaning your guns during the meeting is right out, as is magical or matrix probing. All these forms of threatening the Johnson are bad.

I agree with the onion-layer description given by the others; that's a good way to get to the bottom of a meeting. Note that the introduction (Are you interested in doing an X-type job against an Y-type target with Z-type obstacles for # nuyen.gif ?) is likely handled through the fixer; because if that's a no, then there's no reason to meet Mr. Johnson.

If a meet takes place, it should be because the runners are interested in the job and think that they can come to an agreement about the fee, with Johnson's opening bid in mind. Otherwise Johnson prefers to avoid the exposure.
Aerospider
QUOTE (jaellot @ Oct 28 2010, 04:27 AM) *
As Airheads taught us all, the question "In the Van Hallen split, which side did you take?" should be added to appropriate so you can tell if they are an undercover cop or not. Or Lone Star, as it were.

That question didn't do it though – the undercover cop successfully argued it as a judgement call.

The real teller was –

"Who would win in a fight, Lemmy or God?"
"Uh ... Lemmy."
"Wrong. Trick question, dumbass, Lemmy IS God!"

Of course, if you don't do much work for record companies then this test will yield a quite a few false positives ...
Faelan
When I have run Shadowrun games, my players quickly developed a healthy sense of paranoia.

Meetings in person never, ever, ever happen. Too much risk with no reward. All communication is handled by the Fixer with aid from the groups Hacker. If physical items need to be exchanged, blind drops, or unknowing mules are used. If you absolutely need to meet the team for a large sum job, you meet a team of actors hired just for the meet, and once again through a series of contacts. The only way you get to meet the runners is if you are the object of a mission, or you are trying to screw them and have just worked your way up the long convoluted chain of contacts, by which time they have gotten wind of what is going on, and have something appropriate set up for you. Mr. Johnson can either be a professional and deal with this level of security precautions or he can hire a bunch of crackheads off the corner for his mission. Of course being careful to this degree costs money, the price of doing business.
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Blade @ Oct 28 2010, 11:49 AM) *
A question I like to ask: "Why hire us instead of [whatever he could have hired to do the job]?"


Never, EVER do that. Don't lower yourselves and don't insult the intelligence of the Johnson. He hired you because you are the best (or good enough) and he KNOWS it. That is how it SHOULD be at least. You can always ask around this topic, but never directly.

Same thing with my group. The negotiator said:

"Well we are pretty new and don't KNOW if we can do that properly" - This resulted in lower advance payment (Since the Johnson didn't want to invest in something unsure).

But the rest of your post: Aye... making clear that when the Johnson fucked up you will be FORCED to re-negotiate is a good remark to make.
Also with the: "Should we improvise/divert or something", i would not say as a question, but saying it like this:

"I assume we have a free hand in choosing our approach?"
Shows that you know what you are doing, also keeps a unprofessional/misinformed Johnson from accidentily binding you to strong.
raben-aas
QUOTE
and tells him that if his team has been lied to or the J hasn't been 100 percent upfront with them, they're going to find him and frag his drek-hole.


When playing a runner, I handle the situation in a similar way, but with more politeness. Usually I conclude the meeting by stopping right after getting out of the chair and turning to face the door (much like Columbo smile.gif ) and say something along the lines of:

"Oh, I almost forgot. One thing, Mr. Johnson: Myth has it that there have been cases in the past – not your or your corporation's past, of course – where an employer was not entirely truthful to the runners he hired or purposefully withheld crucial information on the run at hand. We therefore have a policy: Should we ever find out that someone, anyone, we worked for tried to set us up, or not give us every info he has and we NEED. TO. KNOW. That we would come back to him, PERSONALLY, and make his life, PERSONALLY, very miserable. We perfectly understand that not one of our clirnts is at liberty to give us each and every little detail, and we ask for none, but when infotmation is on a need to know basis that means it is VITAL not only to the team's survival, but more importantly the success of the assignment. Please do not take this personally – or as a threat – but if you suddenly remember something – now or at a later time – that seems to be important, do not hesitate to pass that bit along to us. Your co-operation will be greatly appreciated."

Then I go to the door, stop AGAIN, and say:

"Oh. One thing: There once was an employer who thought he and his people were so invincible that what he perceived as a threat by some street riffraff could be ignored. What he overlooked was the fact that he just sent that same riffraff in the heart of heavily guarded enemy territory with the expectation that they would be successful".

I smile and muse.

"I never understood how he imagined that we would be able to defeat the opposition and be too dumb to get to him."

Then I go. Should the Johnson ask what happened to that employer, I just shrug:

"I already told you. There once /was/ an employer."

(of course, I give this little speech only to new Johnsons, and esp. to those not recommended to me by the best fixer)
ProfGast
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 01:20 AM) *
... is right out, as is magical or matrix probing. All these forms of threatening the Johnson are bad.

Odd, I thought these were kinda a matter of course. Are you saying the team's hacker shouldn't be checking the Johnson's credentials to see if he's genuine? After the Johnson spent all that time impersonating a Saeder-Krupp low level exec when he's actually a MCT man? I feel PROFESSIONAL Johnsons go into meet-and-greets with the expectation that the runner team is professional enough to try and dig up extra information that can help them. Discreetly of course. And while I wouldn't magically probe (mind probe) a Johnson right off, Assensing or using less intrusive spells like Thought Recognition or Analyze Truth I'd think are easily within a runner's rights. Just don't be so crass as to call them on it if they're lying. Let the face do that, just relay the info over.

Amateur Johnsons may not have that layer of security, but discreetly fishing info out of them is a good way to up the survival odds so you know what you're up against. Knowing the Johnson has, for example, an unpaid debt to the Yakuza, who have kidnapped his daughter/niece/best friend's sister, and thus why she's gone missing and wants you to find her MAY be good information to find out.

Mind you I'm just taking my examples from the fluff that's offered, YMMV. One example of matrix probing of a Johnson can be found in p32 of Unwired. I'm pretty sure that's /dev/grrl. Also the original opening fic in SR, Buzzkill, points out what may happen to a team if they don't notice that he's a double-crossing humanis scumbag BEFORE they engage in the run.
Doc Chase
Follow the 11th Commandment. Yes, the Johnson assumes you're going to try to find out who he is, just as you assume he's going to try to find more dirt on you. You just don't leave it in the open - that's bad juju.
Kagetenshi
So this depends on having made Mind Probe touch-range, but our chief rule is No Touching. Offering to shake hands gets the meet cancelled, actually making contact with the J brings in his backup guns blazing.

~J
Doc Chase
Never Mind Probe. Ever. You're better off doing an assensing from range to see if there's any cracks in his emotional shield. You may even find if he's a magician, which is just one more piece of information the team didn't have before. No probes, no control thoughts - none of that crap. It's information that is guaranteed to get you killed.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 05:25 PM) *
Odd, I thought these were kinda a matter of course. Are you saying the team's hacker shouldn't be checking the Johnson's credentials to see if he's genuine?


Johnsons aren't supposed to have credentials. They're there to hire you for a job that their boss would deny having anything to do with. Credentials are bad. The only thing a Johnson wants people to know is that he's good for the money.

QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 05:25 PM) *
After the Johnson spent all that time impersonating a Saeder-Krupp low level exec when he's actually a MCT man? I feel PROFESSIONAL Johnsons go into meet-and-greets with the expectation that the runner team is professional enough to try and dig up extra information that can help them. Discreetly of course.


Any advantage the runners gain by this is a disadvantage to the Johnson. It's a hostile act. How much should you be willing to put up with? Anything you're not telling them, is stuff you don't want them to know.

QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 05:25 PM) *
And while I wouldn't magically probe (mind probe) a Johnson right off, Assensing or using less intrusive spells like Thought Recognition or Analyze Truth I'd think are easily within a runner's rights. Just don't be so crass as to call them on it if they're lying. Let the face do that, just relay the info over.


How would Johnson be sure you're "just" trying to find out stuff he doesn't want you to know, instead of influencing his decision-making? Assensing is a tricky case because it's basically just watching them, not using mana. But any spell-casting directed at the Johnson should be reason for his bodyguards to open fire. You have no "right" to information; not getting caught is not the same.


QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 05:25 PM) *
Amateur Johnsons may not have that layer of security, but discreetly fishing info out of them is a good way to up the survival odds so you know what you're up against. Knowing the Johnson has, for example, an unpaid debt to the Yakuza, who have kidnapped his daughter/niece/best friend's sister, and thus why she's gone missing and wants you to find her MAY be good information to find out.


If he wanted you to do that, he would have asked you to. If he didn't ask you, then he doesn't want you involved.


QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 05:25 PM) *
Mind you I'm just taking my examples from the fluff that's offered, YMMV. One example of matrix probing of a Johnson can be found in p32 of Unwired. I'm pretty sure that's /dev/grrl. Also the original opening fic in SR, Buzzkill, points out what may happen to a team if they don't notice that he's a double-crossing humanis scumbag BEFORE they engage in the run.


Let me be clear: it's good for the runners if they can investigate the Johnson, but it's bad for the Johnson if the runners manage to investigate him. Hence why it's bad etiquette to do it; it's hostile.

The whole point of hiring shadowrunners is to put as much distance between a corp and the job. If the runners investigate Johnson, they reduce that distance, and that's bad.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 04:16 PM) *
Let me be clear: it's good for the runners if they can investigate the Johnson, but it's bad for the Johnson if the runners manage to investigate him. Hence why it's bad etiquette to do it; it's hostile.

The whole point of hiring shadowrunners is to put as much distance between a corp and the job. If the runners investigate Johnson, they reduce that distance, and that's bad.


Research is good - do it after the meet and before the run, and don't bloody let on that you've got the info. It's meant as collateral should the run go south.
Neurosis
I like this thread if you can't tell.

QUOTE (kjones @ Oct 27 2010, 10:09 PM) *
Appropriate:
  • Can we get some of the payment up front?
  • What do you know about security/layout/etc.?
  • Can we contact you during the run if something goes wrong?


Inapprorpiate:
  • Who are you?
  • Who are you working for?
  • What is the purpose of this job?


I'm sure others can add to this.


Eh, inappropriate doesn't always mean WRONG, depending on the character. By the third part of DOTA my Adept had too much Nuyen and not enough answers.

He wound up telling Ehran (who he recognized immediately due to the Literature knowledge skill YES LITERATURE WOO) that he would do the job for free, but wouldn't do it at all if he didn't explain what was going on. Not super black-leather professional I know, but it seemed consistent with the character. He was fiscally comfortable but not ethically continuing to kill and risk his life for mystery mcguffins that were never fully explained to him.

Of course then the GM explained that the way DOTA is written even the GM doesn't know the importance of any of the artifact so...yeah, maybe bad example.

Anyway we were talking about etiquette so yes I basically agree with the quoted post.

QUOTE
Runners who agree to take jobs just so they can get the intel and then hit the target for themselves don't tend to live long...


I like to encourage ambition and "Freelancing" from my players but yeah, I can't disagree with this statement.

QUOTE
My favorite runner negotiator was the team leader in Fade to Black, an SR novel. He spits in the Johnson's face, nearly gets into it with the J's security, and tells him that if his team has been lied to or the J hasn't been 100 percent upfront with them, they're going to find him and frag his drek-hole.

You don't have to be limited by a pre-conceived notion of shadow professionalism (at least if you have the skills to back it up). The Fade to Black team had some morals and their own sense of street honor. I recommend the book even though it's 1st Ed. It has a cool street code, neat chars, tons of twists, and some good strategy ideas.


Agree++++

QUOTE ( @ Oct 28 2010, 02:07 AM) *
Mr. Johnson in several games I ran featured extensive cosmetic surgery and personachip treatments in order to talk like Christopher Walken, because test study marketing groups had reacted to this obscure twentieth century actor with the desired mixtures of attentiveness and uncontrollable, irrational, fear.

"The trick...is to write up...everything you want Mr. Johnson to say and then? Remove all the, squiggly little punctuation mark thingies and! Any sort of inflection the text should carry or, anything like, that, and then put all of that back! In at random before, you start talking."

And then, when the deal invariably goes poorly, no matter how shitty his actual Skillwires are, and how small his combat dice pool is when he draws his standard company-issue little handgun, they'll all be freaked the fuck out because holy shit holy shit Christopher Walken is shooting a gun at me, and they screw up all their usual combat plans by blasting at him with tremendous overkill, freeing up his actual company security detail to really do a number on 'em.


ROFL.

"I haven't geeked anybody...since 2064."

QUOTE
A question I like to ask: "Why hire us instead of [whatever he could have hired to do the job]?"


This is a good question, I suppose...but it also seems like GM-hate. Sometimes no matter how good the writer/GM is, the only real answer to that question is "because you're the PCs".

QUOTE (raben-aas @ Oct 28 2010, 09:35 AM) *
When playing a runner, I handle the situation in a similar way, but with more politeness. Usually I conclude the meeting by stopping right after getting out of the chair and turning to face the door (much like Columbo smile.gif ) and say something along the lines of:

"Oh, I almost forgot. One thing, Mr. Johnson: Myth has it that there have been cases in the past – not your or your corporation's past, of course – where an employer was not entirely truthful to the runners he hired or purposefully withheld crucial information on the run at hand. We therefore have a policy: Should we ever find out that someone, anyone, we worked for tried to set us up, or not give us every info he has and we NEED. TO. KNOW. That we would come back to him, PERSONALLY, and make his life, PERSONALLY, very miserable. We perfectly understand that not one of our clirnts is at liberty to give us each and every little detail, and we ask for none, but when infotmation is on a need to know basis that means it is VITAL not only to the team's survival, but more importantly the success of the assignment. Please do not take this personally – or as a threat – but if you suddenly remember something – now or at a later time – that seems to be important, do not hesitate to pass that bit along to us. Your co-operation will be greatly appreciated."

Then I go to the door, stop AGAIN, and say:

"Oh. One thing: There once was an employer who thought he and his people were so invincible that what he perceived as a threat by some street riffraff could be ignored. What he overlooked was the fact that he just sent that same riffraff in the heart of heavily guarded enemy territory with the expectation that they would be successful".

I smile and muse.

"I never understood how he imagined that we would be able to defeat the opposition and be too dumb to get to him."

Then I go. Should the Johnson ask what happened to that employer, I just shrug:

"I already told you. There once /was/ an employer."

(of course, I give this little speech only to new Johnsons, and esp. to those not recommended to me by the best fixer)


This speech is fucking great dude but it would be 100000% better if you rewrote it so it had the same exact build up but instead ended with the phrase "Frag you (him) in your (his) drek hole". Polite polite polite polite polite polite INCREDIBLY RUDE tends to make the last part have really, really, really good impact, and should remind Mr. J in a very visceral way that he is dealing with guys who shoot people in the face for money.
Yerameyahu
It's a little over the top, though. It's a Mr. Johnson's *job* to deal with theatrical mercenaries who think they're badass. Like he's never heard that speech. biggrin.gif
Ascalaphus
A Johnson should have just such a speech about what happens to runners who fuck up, talk too much, or try to keep the MacGuffin for themselves.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 04:29 PM) *
It's a little over the top, though. It's a Mr. Johnson's *job* to deal with theatrical mercenaries who think they're badass. Like he's never heard that speech. biggrin.gif


Well, it depends on how much he screws runners over and how many runners matched the threat to the deed. You just need ONE team of runners screwed to get you killed.
Kagetenshi
I'd say a speech like that would get you fast-tracked to the "test our new security system" jobs, but that's me.

~J
Yerameyahu
Haha, indeed!
kzt
QUOTE (Faelan @ Oct 28 2010, 06:15 AM) *
Meetings in person never, ever, ever happen. Too much risk with no reward. All communication is handled by the Fixer with aid from the groups Hacker. If physical items need to be exchanged, blind drops, or unknowing mules are used. If you absolutely need to meet the team for a large sum job, you meet a team of actors hired just for the meet, and once again through a series of contacts. The only way you get to meet the runners is if you are the object of a mission, or you are trying to screw them and have just worked your way up the long convoluted chain of contacts, by which time they have gotten wind of what is going on, and have something appropriate set up for you. Mr. Johnson can either be a professional and deal with this level of security precautions or he can hire a bunch of crackheads off the corner for his mission. Of course being careful to this degree costs money, the price of doing business.

Encryption in SR by RAW is a joke, so using the matrix for a meets is MUCH less secure than anything else you can do. "Secure calls" from your fixer or the Johnson could be from your 12 year old neighbor or a police detective, and you can't tell.
kzt
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 10:16 AM) *
The whole point of hiring shadowrunners is to put as much distance between a corp and the job. If the runners investigate Johnson, they reduce that distance, and that's bad.

If you know a lot about the Johnson it makes capturing and torturing you for the info a viable option for the guy you just ran against. This has always seemed to me to be a bad thing, you don't want them targeting you except as some sort of deterrent effect. If they go balls out to capture you because you can unroll the whole plot things are likely to not work out well for the side that can't spend millions and employ thousands of investigators to save their project.
Faelan
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 28 2010, 08:24 PM) *
Encryption in SR by RAW is a joke, so using the matrix for a meets is MUCH less secure than anything else you can do. "Secure calls" from your fixer or the Johnson could be from your 12 year old neighbor or a police detective, and you can't tell.


Of course if I went by RAW none of my players outside of the Hacker would use anything electronic.
ProfGast
Doublepost
ProfGast
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Johnsons aren't supposed to have credentials. They're there to hire you for a job that their boss would deny having anything to do with. Credentials are bad. The only thing a Johnson wants people to know is that he's good for the money.

Everyone has credentials. You wouldn't meet with a Johnson if he didn't have credentials, at least sufficient credentials that would have your (hopefully) trusted fixer suggest him for a meet and greet. Knowing they're good for the money is great. Knowing they at least have the reputation for not stabbing you in the back repeatedly is better.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Any advantage the runners gain by this is a disadvantage to the Johnson. It's a hostile act. How much should you be willing to put up with? Anything you're not telling them, is stuff you don't want them to know.

... There are so many parts of this line I disagree with it's hard to know where to begin. I guess I'll stick with "omitting something doesn't mean you're actually trying to hide it" and leave it at that. Otherwise, by your theory, ANYTHING that isn't part of your brief is OFF LIMITS. Which is absurd.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
How would Johnson be sure you're "just" trying to find out stuff he doesn't want you to know, instead of influencing his decision-making? Assensing is a tricky case because it's basically just watching them, not using mana. But any spell-casting directed at the Johnson should be reason for his bodyguards to open fire. You have no "right" to information; not getting caught is not the same.

I'll agree that casting spells directly on a Johnson is a no-no. Which I suppose rules out Analyze Truth as one unfortunately For some reason I thought it wasn't a touch range. Area Thought Recognition seems to be Range T and yet, Area so not sure how that exactly pans out though. I'd say the area would work fine since you're just picking out specific lines in what everyone in the area is thinking.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
If he wanted you to do that, he would have asked you to. If he didn't ask you, then he doesn't want you involved.

Oooonly he really does want you involved. Or else he wouldn't have hired you to rescue the person who was kidnapped because he has huge debts. And said huge debts may mean he's unable to pay. Also bad.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Let me be clear: it's good for the runners if they can investigate the Johnson, but it's bad for the Johnson if the runners manage to investigate him. Hence why it's bad etiquette to do it; it's hostile.

I don't follow. Just because it's good for the runners doesn't imply it is bad for the Johnson. You're drawing a conclusion with no actual evidence to support it. I'm not investigating a johnson so I can USE THINGS against him. I am investigating a Johnson so I can't have things used against ME. If that Johnson is from Renraku, and is throwing me against a Renraku secured zone just to test the security, I'd like to know. I'll trust the Johnson for the pay, and for most of his mission info. I'm not expecting him to be straight with me for everything.

QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 28 2010, 06:16 AM) *
The whole point of hiring shadowrunners is to put as much distance between a corp and the job. If the runners investigate Johnson, they reduce that distance, and that's bad.

Again you're kinda drawing a conclusion without any backing evidence. As I see it, the point of hiring shadowrunners is to get a bunch of professionals to do some work for you that can't be taken through normal channels. It doesn't have to be a corp hiring. It could even be legitimate business ventures that is just too difficult to push through the red tape. Distance is a bonus, which, if you're a corp, simply means you have plausible deniability if they're caught (and is why you're not using a corp spec ops team) but isn't the 'whole point'

I'll finish off with a quote from the Johnson 'Martin Strong-Oak'
QUOTE (Runner's Companion @ pg 168)
The four elves sat, Havoc sprawling in the chair directly across
from me. I adjusted my emoti-soft package to include thermal im-
aging, the sensors on my contacts feeding the software instant data.
I had dossiers on Havoc and her crew, indicating the probability of
their acceptance for this job, as well as past pay scales and perfor-
mances. If anyone checked my blank commlink now contained a
false ID, a small amount of cred, miscellaneous files dating back
six months validating my S-K affiliation, as well as a temporary
commcode number. I had several certified credsticks, each worth
5,000¥, in the inner pocket of my suit, to account for both a high
and low negotiated wage. In case they refused—a circumstance I
highly doubted—I had a second crew on standby for a meet later.

This Johnson is a pro, he fully expects to be probed, cajoled and otherwise dealt with. He's doing his level best to stack all the cards in his favor. I see absolutely no reason why the runner's shouldn't attempt to do the same.
Swing Kid
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Oct 28 2010, 12:33 AM) *
Hm... i do it mostly like Method.

The Fixer should have cleared up the reputation-issue. Pretty much advertising "his" runners, but also checking out if the Johnson is "known" and reliable... that is why he gets a cut.

When the meeting takes place it should already be clear that the Johnson is likely to pay and normaly doesn't sent people into their deaths as well as that the runners normaly take "such runs" (Very basic description) and may have needed specialities. I always pay the fixers a percentage, but seperate from the payment of the runners. If he wants the money he better sends nice, capable people.

Back to the interview:
Good questions are, i guess (if not already covered in the introductionary speech): What do you want done? How much freedom do we have? Any secondary goals/actions we can not take? Any limitations on equipment? How clean do you want it or better: in what style do you want it done?

Then, after they have agreed to the job and get the details: Anythings else you can tell us? (Maybe gets you "estimated details"). Do you have other people working on anything surrounding this job? Make sure they don't cross us/help us. Transfer all the data to us. How and when do we contact you/will you contact us? Payment details (crude haggling). Any wrong clues you like us to set up?


After that: Exchange some codes for the communication (So you know when it is the Johnson contacting you/using the "I am serious code") and if not sure about the Johnson have him transfer the whole sum into some kind of escrow service/trusted third party and give you the advance.

After that you MIGHT check out the Johnson and the impact of your job. (Or just do it, like my group - they have a reputation of being greedy bastards... which DO the job (100%) and don't want to know ANYTHING else).



Bravo. Some of these were already on my list, but I took a bunch of notes reading this one. Thanks.
Swing Kid
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 28 2010, 02:07 AM) *
Mr. Johnson in several games I ran featured extensive cosmetic surgery and personachip treatments in order to talk like Christopher Walken, because test study marketing groups had reacted to this obscure twentieth century actor with the desired mixtures of attentiveness and uncontrollable, irrational, fear.

"The trick...is to write up...everything you want Mr. Johnson to say and then? Remove all the, squiggly little punctuation mark thingies and! Any sort of inflection the text should carry or, anything like, that, and then put all of that back! In at random before, you start talking."

And then, when the deal invariably goes poorly, no matter how shitty his actual Skillwires are, and how small his combat dice pool is when he draws his standard company-issue little handgun, they'll all be freaked the fuck out because holy shit holy shit Christopher Walken is shooting a gun at me, and they screw up all their usual combat plans by blasting at him with tremendous overkill, freeing up his actual company security detail to really do a number on 'em.



Uh....what?
Critias
QUOTE (Swing Kid @ Oct 28 2010, 10:58 PM) *
Uh....what?

Sorry, I forgot! We're not supposed to share funny/amusing Shadowrun stories that are somewhat on-topic any more, we're all just supposed to be gnashing our teeth and wailing about how much everything in the game sucks, like a bunch of freaky Shadowrun emo kids. biggrin.gif wink.gif
Swing Kid
QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 28 2010, 10:25 AM) *
Odd, I thought these were kinda a matter of course. Are you saying the team's hacker shouldn't be checking the Johnson's credentials to see if he's genuine? After the Johnson spent all that time impersonating a Saeder-Krupp low level exec when he's actually a MCT man? I feel PROFESSIONAL Johnsons go into meet-and-greets with the expectation that the runner team is professional enough to try and dig up extra information that can help them. Discreetly of course. And while I wouldn't magically probe (mind probe) a Johnson right off, Assensing or using less intrusive spells like Thought Recognition or Analyze Truth I'd think are easily within a runner's rights. Just don't be so crass as to call them on it if they're lying. Let the face do that, just relay the info over.

Amateur Johnsons may not have that layer of security, but discreetly fishing info out of them is a good way to up the survival odds so you know what you're up against. Knowing the Johnson has, for example, an unpaid debt to the Yakuza, who have kidnapped his daughter/niece/best friend's sister, and thus why she's gone missing and wants you to find her MAY be good information to find out.

Mind you I'm just taking my examples from the fluff that's offered, YMMV. One example of matrix probing of a Johnson can be found in p32 of Unwired. I'm pretty sure that's /dev/grrl. Also the original opening fic in SR, Buzzkill, points out what may happen to a team if they don't notice that he's a double-crossing humanis scumbag BEFORE they engage in the run.


Another reference to your point is in the SR3 rulebook's cover story (starting on page 14), talks extensively about decking deep into the Johnson's background, and it is written as if it is common practice (not necessarily considered a friendly move of etiquette, but an expected one).
Kagetenshi
That's an important distinction, I think. Investigating your Johnson is a deeply hostile act. Fortunately, deeply hostile acts are par for the course—both SRComp and, IIRC, Corporate Download include pieces by or for Johnsons making it clear that runners are to be treated more or less like a useful variant on rabid dogs.

~J
Swing Kid
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 28 2010, 10:05 PM) *
Sorry, I forgot! We're not supposed to share funny/amusing Shadowrun stories that are somewhat on-topic any more, we're all just supposed to be gnashing our teeth and wailing about how much everything in the game sucks, like a bunch of freaky Shadowrun emo kids. biggrin.gif wink.gif


Actually, I was just trying to figure out the whole Christopher Walken thing. Still working it out...
Yerameyahu
I wouldn't call it 'deeply hostile'. At the absolute most, maybe it's rude.
Kagetenshi
I disagree. You're bringing the Johnson's enemies closer to him—those being secondly the target in case you should get captured, but first and foremost you.

~J
Yerameyahu
*shrug* smile.gif Who cares about the Johnson or his enemies? You're checking into the Johnson for yourself, as a perfectly normal, reasonable, and expected business action.
kzt
Classic SR has the fixer playing a minor role. It would really make a lot of sense if the fixer was the guy holding the money etc, and he had people who acted as insulation between the secret customer and the deniable assets that achieve the customers goals.

Even in classic SR, the fixer's ass is hanging out any time the Johnson or the runners do a double cross. Both the runners and the Johnson KNOW how to find the fixer, and they know that the fixer can find the other side. Plus the rep of a fixer is his currency. So a competent and experienced fixer works hard to avoid these kinds of problems. He doesn't hire incompetent runners (except for distractions, and then he uses cutouts) or difficult to deal with runners (unless there is nobody else available) and he doesn't work with Johnson's who have a rep of screwing over fixers, runners, or omitting critical info.

The runners should be able to, in general, trust that a job from their established fixer is legit and the fixer will help them out if it isn't. A crazy percentage of the actual written scenarios have the Johnson essentially committing suicide by screwing over the runners. A Johnson isn't a 19 year old, he knows at a gut level he can die and the people he deals with on a regular basis are perfectly willing to kill him over minor insults, much less after being double crossed. Why would a professional do something that is likely to get him killed? It isn't even his money, it's his sponsor's money and they are not expecting it back.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 28 2010, 11:28 PM) *
*shrug* smile.gif Who cares about the Johnson or his enemies? You're checking into the Johnson for yourself, as a perfectly normal, reasonable, and expected business action.

Right, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether it's hostile, and it is, profoundly so. You appear to be talking about whether it's reasonable; it is certainly that as well.

QUOTE ("SRComp")
TREAT THE SRS AS HOSTILE. Even if they appear wholesome (a statistically improbable occurrence), assume that they are willing to kill you for any trivial reason should the opportunity present itself. These people are hardened criminals who commit heinous crimes for nuyen. They are mercenaries, living merely for the next payment, and they will try to squeeze you for all they can get. Remember that every nuyen you pay them is one less nuyen for Fuchi America. They are tools, no more; your job is to get as much work out of them as possible while compensating them as little as possible.
No matter how well they may present themselves, these are not honorable, decent people. As criminals, they have no claim to fair treatment or respect. Treat them like the beasts they are; toss them their dinner from a safe distance and make sure that Fuchi America does not get bitten. If you think of them as being “just like us” even for a moment, you have already failed.


Also of note:

QUOTE ("SRComp")
CONCEAL YOUR IDENTITY. If the SRs recognize you or your affiliation, they may attempt to blackmail you at a later date. Such a development would be harmful to you and to Fuchi America. Departmental research indicates that SRs are prone to make snap judgments about clients based on observations they make at the initial meeting. The RAD therefore supplies “plainclothes” for these meetings—generic suits of a conservative cut that cannot be easily identified as contemporary corporate fashion.
If the situation calls for a greater degree of misdirection, RAD staffers can suggest various ensembles and accoutrements that incorporate the hallmarks of other corporations or organizations. Cosmetic changes can also be made at a client’s request, including wigs, contact lenses, melanin pills to change skin tone, and so on. Using these, a client may conceal his own identity or temporarily adopt someone else’s.


Let me repeat: this does not mean that you aren't going to look into the Johnson. Of course you are. What it does mean is that if you let that be known, especially if you appear to be being successful, you should expect the Johnson to attempt to exterminate you.

~J
phlapjack77
QUOTE (ProfGast @ Oct 29 2010, 10:09 AM) *
...
I'll agree that casting spells directly on a Johnson is a no-no. Which I suppose rules out Analyze Truth as one unfortunately For some reason I thought it wasn't a touch range. Area Thought Recognition seems to be Range T and yet, Area so not sure how that exactly pans out though. I'd say the area would work fine since you're just picking out specific lines in what everyone in the area is thinking.
...

Just to interject - Detection spells are Touch in that you cast them on yourself or someone else, granting you or that person an additional "sense". So you can cast the Analyze Truth spell on yourself, allowing yourself to analyze truth of others.

From p205, SR4A:
[ Spoiler ]
Method
On the subject of credentials: Some Johnson's would have them, others wouldn't it. If its a corporate job the Johnson might be a bland professional-looking clone who pays more to offset his lack of reputation. If its non-corporate, handled through fixers or if the Johnson is a freelancer or known player, then he might have credentials. It kinda depends on the job (and the story).

In either case I agree that overt digging into the Johnson's real identity or affiliation is dangerous. He's not going to like it any more than your character would like to know that his team of hackers is busy finding your home address and the names of your family. Probably both sides are doing it, but neither side wants the other to know.
Yerameyahu
Which is why it's merely rude. smile.gif When hostile is *normal*, it loses a lot of its edge, is my point. If someone cuts in front of you in a line, that's a lot more 'hostile' than if someone rushes in front of you when there's no line. It's expected, if rude.

Anyway, we're not really saying anything different, so I'll drop it. smile.gif
Mesh
Analyze Truth is a Touch spell so you can cast it on someone other than yourself to be able to receive the effects. You don't have to touch anyone to know if they're lying or not.

Mesh
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