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Teryon
Ok, the adept power Commanding Voice is somewhat akin to the Jedi Mind Trick; you give them a 5-word command, they fail the opposed test, and the target does what's commanded for one combat round. My question is thus: What're the limits on wording and commands given? GM aside, Im curious as to whether you can for example say 'Believe what I tell you' or 'Ignore me from now on', etc.
Yerameyahu
Presumably, it can only last for the stated duration.
ProfGast
QUOTE (Commanding Voice @ Street Magic p176)
If the adept succeeds in the test, the target uses his next action to either carry out the command or stands confused (gamemaster's choice, but the more net hits achieved the more likely he will obey the adept's command).

Emphasis mine.

Anyhow as Yerameyahu said, it's a short duration and open ended commands like "Believe what I tell you" or "Ignore me from now on" are most likely to simply have the target stand confused. Also if you're too vague as a GM I'd say you'd be totally in your rights to interpret the command in such a way that would be detrimental to the commander.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, it's really intended for more concrete actions. It's the Bene Gesserit voice, which short-circuits the nervous system to make the person *do* something, briefly. It's not the Jedi Mind Trick. P.S. Star-Wars-Sux. wink.gif
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 08:15 AM) *
P.S. Star-Wars-Sux. wink.gif


GET HIM!!!

But yeah, he is right. I would handle it the same.
Glyph
Also, commanding voice causes the target to either obey the command or stand confused for one action. Generally, I would rule that more extreme commands ("Shoot yourself", etc.) would have a higher Threshold to work, and would be likelier to simply cause the confusion.
Teryon
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 29 2010, 01:45 AM) *
Also, commanding voice causes the target to either obey the command or stand confused for one action. Generally, I would rule that more extreme commands ("Shoot yourself", etc.) would have a higher Threshold to work, and would be likelier to simply cause the confusion.



*nod* That I assumed, so far Ive tried to use it for simple, quick, not-very-immediately-detrimental orders for people(Leave now, drop the sword, Return to your car, etc). Just checking so I dont waste my time and IP doing something that would actually be useful. Thx for the clarification folks.
klinktastic
To be honest, played a face adept with this power a while back. Talk to your GM and see how he wants to handle it. But I got a lot more use out of commanding voice in non-combat situations, where my GM ruled it had more Jedi Mind Trick power. He argued, correctly, that in combat situations, people are going to be more wary of the power. I got a ton of mileage out of it in pre-fight situations that give us significant advantages, like making someone drop their gun pre fight, or what have you. All in all, talk to your GM, see how he wants to handle it.
Doc Chase
I'm playing a Bene Gesserit/Tleilaxu Face Dancer adept now, and I find CV to be a wonderful fallback if the character's other skills fall short. Shouting 'drop your weapon' can make the difference in a firefight. biggrin.gif
TheScrivener
Commanding Voice can be a great weapon for tactics:

"Dismiss the fire spirit!", "Shoot that guy!", "Drop your gun!", "Run away!"

but it also works well for general confusion:

"Drop and give me twenty!", "Give me his pants!", "Dance the Macarena!", "Do a B flat!"

YMMV.
Makki
"These are not the droids you're looking for!" shouldn't have worked, since it's too many words. But we give George Lucas some artistic latitude.
I generally think it's really cheap for what it does. cost of 0.5 or more might me more sensible. still my GM doesn't think so and my next char will have it.
Draco18s
"Shoot yourself in the head."
"Kill yourself"
"Kill your buddy"
"Jump off the building"
Critias
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 29 2010, 11:22 AM) *
"Shoot yourself in the head."
"Kill yourself"
"Kill your buddy"
"Jump off the building"

Three of those four would likely result in "stands confused for one action." The other may result in some sort of attack roll, depending on whether the target only had a single buddy (and as such, little interpretation was involved in the order, making it nice and clear) around.
Draco18s
And it took me 20 minutes to find this, but its highly appropriate.
klinktastic
Yeah, you need to phase your command in a way that doesn't seem detrimental to the target. If you are winning the fight, commanding them to surrender might not meet as much resistance. Remember your sentense doesn't have to be 5 words, just the words you use commanding voice on are limited to 5 words. So you can work your command into a sentence.

Ex. I really want to buy the car, isn't there a way you can give me a deal?

Its a crappy example, but I haven't played that character in a while. What I would have told my GM is that I want to use this commanding voice action to help out my future negoitation rolls. I want to use commanding voice to change the target's disposition. I would then recommend that I would add all my commanding voice successes to my next negotiation roll as I finished the conversation.
Arrgg
On a somewhat related topic, how does one protect themselves from that? Besides a high will.
Critias
I don't think it works the way some people think it works.

Commanding Voice is very specific about being a forceful command, that "carries no weight beyond the immediate impetus," so that "affected characters will quickly reassert their wits" and "return to their original course of action." It's not a Jedi Mind Trick. It's a shotgun blast of authority that will, at best, assert your will over people for a single action before they get control back.

It doesn't tamper with memory, it doesn't give you subliminal long-term control. It's one quick, sharp, jerk of the leash and then they're back in the saddle.

In all my time running Adepts -- many of which have been, at least partially, social in nature -- I've personally found cause to use it twice. Once was on a game right here on Dumpshock, where my character and a rival gang member, both Social Adepts, basically got in a Commanding Voice-off. We stood there insulting and ordering each other around, locked in a battle of wills trying to make the other one kneel as a more dramatic, extreme, example of basically a staredown. It was fun and dramatic and awesome, but ultimately the issue isn't settled by one of us making the other kneel, it's just a way to demean and belittle a rival.

The other time was a Social Adept that was a Lone Star negotiator, who breezed into a hostage situation. The baddies had shown they were wielding shotguns with shot rounds in them, and when things went sour they had their scatterguns pointed at the unarmed, unarmored, hostages. My negotiator -- with a sturdy concealed vest on and some dermal plating -- used Commanding Voice to shout "Shoot me," so that when the shotguns went off he and his armor took the hit, not the civvies.

Used creatively, it can be a stumbling block in enemy plans or something, sure. But it's no Jedi Mind Trick, or Control Thoughts spell. It works for one action, not even one round, and never, ever, forget the "stands confused" outcome is just as likely as anything else. Some of you guys are cooking up some pretty wild commands.
Makki
it's magic, you're not supposed to defend against it. But you are allowed to roll Leadership+Will, which is much more than rolling just Will against Mages with an Influence Spell
klinktastic
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 29 2010, 10:58 AM) *
I don't think it works the way some people think it works.

Commanding Voice is very specific about being a forceful command, that "carries no weight beyond the immediate impetus," so that "affected characters will quickly reassert their wits" and "return to their original course of action." It's not a Jedi Mind Trick. It's a shotgun blast of authority that will, at best, assert your will over people for a single action before they get control back.

It doesn't tamper with memory, it doesn't give you subliminal long-term control. It's one quick, sharp, jerk of the leash and then they're back in the saddle.


Exactly my point. A car salesman "orginal course of action" is to negotiate. Commanding voice is used to shade his throught process is headed. Its definitely open to GM interpretation, since the rules in the book are clearly for hostile situations. Again, clarify with your GM how they prefer to handle the power. As a GM, I'd let you use it as I mentioned above. Critias, seems to be an RAW guy, he probably wouldn't let you. Just boils down to how the GM feels it should be used in play.
Critias
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 29 2010, 11:14 AM) *
Exactly my point. A car salesman "orginal course of action" is to negotiate. Commanding voice is used to shade his throught process is headed. Its definitely open to GM interpretation, since the rules in the book are clearly for hostile situations. Again, clarify with your GM how they prefer to handle the power. As a GM, I'd let you use it as I mentioned above. Critias, seems to be an RAW guy, he probably wouldn't let you. Just boils down to how the GM feels it should be used in play.

The rules in the book are clearly for hostile situations because, in my opinion, there are other Adept powers to handle the not-hostile situations. Barking an order at someone is confrontational and obvious. Confrontational and obvious are short term, not long term, plans. You use Commanding Voice much like you use Intimidate -- it's an immediate problem solver, not a slick, multi-step, problem solver.

Social Adepts already have a bunch of good ways to get a great deal in a negotiation. Heck, between Improved Ability: Negotiations and Kinesics they can already double dip, in fact, to totally blow someone else's die pool out of the water. Letting them triple dip, by slinging a ton of Leadership dice around in order to compound their die pool is just asking for trouble, in my book.

When the power specifically states that the target will "quickly reassert their wits," it seems to me like there's plenty of time for a used car salesman to get his crap together and realize he's being ordered around and throwing money away. Buying a car is a multi-step process with plenty of paperwork, bookkeeping, and back-and-forth to it, and often more than one salesman/financier involved. Ordering someone to "give you a deal" is like ordering someone to "bake you a cake." Sure, you might roll well and browbeat them into doing what you want for a single action, but after that they've got no magically compelled reason to keep on being stupid for you.

If I were to jump into a car right now and use Commanding Voice to tell someone to "Drive me to New York," they should either sit in their car being confused, or put the car in gear for a few feet (their next action) before they hit the brakes and look at me like I'm a moron. If I con them into giving me a ride to New York with some good role playing and a whole series of Etiquette and Negotiation rolls to approach them at a gas station, ask where they're going, influence them with Kinesics to adjust my body language and tailor my request to their ability to actually give me a ride, over time, I might be able to get them to toss in a round trip.

To me it's an issue of the immediacy of the command, and how quickly -- right there in the rules -- targets are stated to snap out of it. It's a matter of using the right tool for the job.
Doc Chase
Going with the salesman scenario, I'd use it to make him sign the damn contract to jolt him into putting his Hancock on that horrible(for him) car deal he wants to back out of. nyahnyah.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 29 2010, 12:29 PM) *
Going with the salesman scenario, I'd use it to make him sign the damn contract to jolt him into putting his Hancock on that horrible(for him) car deal he wants to back out of. nyahnyah.gif

See, and that I'd certainly allow. Or a "give me the keys" (in a short-term, emergency, "The Yakuza hit squad just pulled up and I need that Westwind for an action movie getaway" sort of way), or something like that.

It's an issue of urgency and longevity-of-effect, for me. You can't order someone to "Climb Mount Everest" with Commanding Voice, and expect it to work. If you're on Mount Everest and they're on the side of the mountain with you, an order to "Climb," will get a round's worth of upward movement from them, sure. But if you're in Seattle, a single Commanding Voice isn't going to get someone to follow through on the equipment purchases and travel plans to see themselves to the summit in several weeks time.
Yerameyahu
The contract would be legally void, but that's just a detail. wink.gif

To reiterate: Bene Gesserit *voice*, not Jedi Mind Trick. If that doesn't make it 100% clear, you need to go read Dune books. biggrin.gif
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 07:42 PM) *
The contract would be legally void, but that's just a detail. wink.gif

To reiterate: Bene Gesserit *voice*, not Jedi Mind Trick. If that doesn't make it 100% clear, you need to go read Dune books. biggrin.gif


Not if you shot him after he signed it! Two can keep a secret if the other one is dead!

Who's going to miss a car salesman, anyway? biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
No one. smile.gif Remember to have the hacker clean all the cameras. And the sam clean all the stains.
Teryon
About the same number of people that'd miss a lawyer, unless I miss my guess. Hrm, ok, fortunately having read all of the ORIGINAL Dune books(the new ones are...how do I put this mildly? A travesty? A sin against the righteous and proper order?), I get the picture. BG Voice, I can work with that. Alot more situations where that can be useful than one would think, especially since Im hardly the combat monkey of the group. Reminds me though, I do need to pick up improved ability: negotiation soon..
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 29 2010, 07:24 AM) *
I'm playing a Bene Gesserit/Tleilaxu Face Dancer adept now, and I find CV to be a wonderful fallback if the character's other skills fall short. Shouting 'drop your weapon' can make the difference in a firefight. biggrin.gif



All Hale the Face Dancers...

I have one of those myself... what an Awesome Concept... smokin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Teryon @ Oct 29 2010, 11:52 AM) *
About the same number of people that'd miss a lawyer, unless I miss my guess. Hrm, ok, fortunately having read all of the ORIGINAL Dune books(the new ones are...how do I put this mildly? A travesty? A sin against the righteous and proper order?), I get the picture. BG Voice, I can work with that. Alot more situations where that can be useful than one would think, especially since Im hardly the combat monkey of the group. Reminds me though, I do need to pick up improved ability: negotiation soon..


Interesting... I actually like the newer Dune Books myself... Really fleshed a lot of stuff out that Frank never published... wobble.gif
jaellot
Had an antagonist Face, got picked up by some of the players. Had him tied up, were telling him his horrible fate, and he acted like he was going to throw up, so he tried to stick his head out the window. The PC had just bought the car, and eagerly rolled the window. Once he got his head out of the window came the words "Stop The Car, Now." PC stopped, Face made the roll to heft himself out the window, took a few in physical, and the PC's got out and nearly beat him within an inch of his life. Sure, he didn't even get close to getting away, but it put the fear of CV in those PC's, whee!
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 29 2010, 01:50 PM) *
… And the sam clean all the stains.


Liquid bleach in a spray bottle time!

Oh, wait, you mean the salesman's blood stains.

...why? You only care about YOUR involvement being masked, no?



-k
Yerameyahu
Right. Cleaning up is all *about* masking your involvement.
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