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Khadajico
I am starting a new SR4 game soon and during character generation some of my players started asking questions about the KarmeGen and Metatypes.

If you take a troll character when does the attribute boosts take effect. Mainly do you pay karma to increase the base attribute from 1->2 and pay 10 karma or 4->5 and pay 20 karma.

If it is the first then how is the cost of the metatype factored in.
If it is the second then why would you take a metatype with more than base stats due to the expense of increasing the stats.

I am sure I am missing something here. I have read the rules in the book and am confused.

Khadajico
Mäx
You pay to raise it from 4 to 5 costing 25 karma(new value*5).

As for your question, the second one, could you maybe rephrase it as i can't figure out what your trying to ask
Lansdren
The issue with metatypes and karma gen are well known on here and the semi official answer is they were supposed to be errated (they already have been in the german release).


At present you get your metatype bonuses for free straight off with the additional cost possibly being a issue in some instances. In the proposed revision you would pay twice the bp of the metatype to get the bonuses and still have the costs for upping it.


its not a perfect system and at the moment I stick to the current RAW as personally I think the increased cost for upping the already raised stats quite high in some instances.
Mäx
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Nov 1 2010, 02:01 PM) *
The issue with metatypes and karma gen are well known on here and the semi official answer is they were supposed to be errated (they already have been in the german release).

Its also, according to some posters here and official forums, in the latest printing of the english book, they just haven't bothered to realease an errata.

Edit: As Karoline says the errata is that you pay the races BP cost in karma.
Karoline
The second way. You pay 25 karma to increase from 4->5.
The reasoning behind this is that you're already getting 2, 3, and 4 for free, since karmagen has no cost for race.

@Lan - I'd been told for ages that the German version has Karma cost = BP cost, not 2x BP cost. Personally I like that the best, so that you don't just pick the most expensive race out there. 2x just seems like too much, especially since the more expensive races are generally going to cost more karma to raise their stats anyway (unless they're not raising any of the improved stats, as many like to do with ork and troll)
Lansdren
I could well have misunderstood what i read and added in the x2 as most bp costs are doubled when in karma.

Either way its something that should have been sorted out officially long before now. For something to be released in print and not sent out officially to everyone else is sloppy.
Yerameyahu
I agree that the general rule *should* always be 2*BP=Karma for anything. But that's not what it is, for whatever reason, for Metatype.

Incidentally, there is another option: racial mods add *after* you buy up stats. This isn't used by anyone, because it makes too much sense. wink.gif (I'm kidding: some people use it.)
Seth
QUOTE
Incidentally, there is another option: racial mods add *after* you buy up stats. This isn't used by anyone, because it makes too much sense. (I'm kidding: some people use it.)

This looks very sensible.

Example:
I want to play a troll. Start with str 5. To start 1 point above racial minimums costs 30 karma. To get 2 points above racial minimums costs 65 karma. This doesn't feel right to me.
Yerameyahu
I'd call it 'the D&D method', heh. It's open to abuse, like anything else; I haven't run the numbers, but I'm guessing it's best with '2*BP' costs.
Mäx
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 1 2010, 05:36 PM) *
I agree that the general rule *should* always be 2*BP=Karma for anything. But that's not what it is, for whatever reason, for Metatype.

Well it's not for may other thinks either, wouldn't make much sense if it was anyway.
If everythink costed 2*BP=karma there wouldn't be much point for karmagen, what with it beign "give twice the points and charge douple for everythink"-gen. wink.gif
Yerameyahu
Er, no. smile.gif Qualities, etc. Not attributes and skills, obviously. biggrin.gif I didn't make the context clear, whoops.
sabs
Karma is an escalating point buy system.
BP is a flat buy system.

in BP going from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 costs the same at every level.
In Karma gen from from 1 to 2 is cheaper then 2 to 3 which is in turn cheaper than 3 to 4.. etc.

In BP its 50BP to go from a 1 stat to a 6 stat
in Karma its 100 Karma

So really BP and Karma are equivalent or BP is actually slightly more expensive for stat buys.
Mäx
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 1 2010, 09:12 PM) *
So really BP and Karma are equivalent or BP is actually slightly more expensive for stat buys.

Only when your staying in the low end.
It quite possible to build a BP character whose attributes cost 600+ karma.

The big thing is that going from 9 to 10 still only costs 10BP while it costs 50 karma, thats a ratio of 1BP=5karma.
sabs
This only really effects Orks and Trolls for the most part.

An 11 str would cost 100 BP and 325 Karma. for a 1bp to 3 1/4 karma ratio.

The single point is 55 from 10 to 11, but given that going from 1 to 2 cost 10 bp but only 10 karma, for a 1 to 1 ratio you have to look at the final cost, not the step cost.
Mäx
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 1 2010, 09:29 PM) *
This only really effects Orks and Trolls for the most part.

An 11 str would cost 100 BP and 325 Karma. for a 1bp to 3 1/4 karma ratio.

The single point is 55 from 10 to 11, but given that going from 1 to 2 cost 10 bp but only 10 karma, for a 1 to 1 ratio you have to look at the final cost, not the step cost.

Except those that can get to 10+ in an attribute without augments, allready start at 5+ and the sixth point is allready at 3 to 1 price point.
The cost of the low end is irrelevant at that point, your not paying for those points in either system.
Nath
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 1 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Incidentally, there is another option: racial mods add *after* you buy up stats. This isn't used by anyone, because it makes too much sense. wink.gif (I'm kidding: some people use it.)
QUOTE (Seth @ Nov 1 2010, 05:56 PM) *
This looks very sensible.

Example:
I want to play a troll. Start with str 5. To start 1 point above racial minimums costs 30 karma. To get 2 points above racial minimums costs 65 karma. This doesn't feel right to me.
It depends if you expect to balance starting characters with the average population of their chosen metatype, or to balance them with the rest of the PC group. Game-wise, 90% of the time, it's the dice pool that count, not whether you're above or under the average.

The original goal of the karma-based creation system was to nullify the difference between acquiring and increasing skills and attributes during creation or later in the game. That's basically why metatypes modifiers are to be counted first.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 1 2010, 06:16 AM) *
@Lan - I'd been told for ages that the German version has Karma cost = BP cost, not 2x BP cost. Personally I like that the best, so that you don't just pick the most expensive race out there. 2x just seems like too much, especially since the more expensive races are generally going to cost more karma to raise their stats anyway (unless they're not raising any of the improved stats, as many like to do with ork and troll)



Actually, AH, one of the RC authors, came forth and gave us the errata the germans got, but catalyst can't/wont release. You can find it here

But basically, you should tell them to use German Karmagen. Its the most balanced. (Race cost = bp times 1, attribute is times 5)
If you're feeling nice, you should give them free knowledge/language skills based on your log+int, since you -don't- get those in karmagen.
Glyph
One of the things to realize about karmagen is that the 1 BP = 2 karma ratio is not an even thing. At the low end - improving an Attribute to 2, buying a skill or skill group at 2, or buying a specialization - a karma point buys you as much as a build point does. At the higher end - such as improving Body or Strength for a troll - a karma point is not worth even half of a build point.

But here's the key thing. It evens out. In fact, karmagen usually works out slightly better than build points, even for builds that you would normally consider specialized ones. A troll with a Body of 9 and a Strength of 9 is perfectly doable - as long as you balance it out with a few things that are cheaper under karmagen.

Now, to get back to your original question: why bother? You can pay 40 karma to be a troll, and get a net gain of about 90 karma (140 karma for Body and Strength of 5, minus 40 for buying the troll metatype and 10 for losing the human edge bonus). So why pay 130 karma to buy Body and Strength up to 7? For that matter, why get a skill of 6, when the same 44 points will get you five skills of two and one skill of one?

Simple - because things like a Body of 7 or a skill of 6 - and the accompanying dice pools - are effective in the game. Yeah, you could get nothing but skills and Attributes of 2, and have a character who would technically be worth a lot more build points than a specialist. But when those two characters charge out of the starting gate, the more specialized character will still have a huge edge. And note that you don't have to be a complete hyper-specialist. That goes back to what I was saying earlier - you can afford some of the pricier options because you can also offset them with cheaper expeditures elsewhere.
Mäx
QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 2 2010, 05:26 AM) *
But here's the key thing. It evens out. In fact, karmagen usually works out slightly better than build points, even for builds that you would normally consider specialized ones. A troll with a Body of 9 and a Strength of 9 is perfectly doable - as long as you balance it out with a few things that are cheaper under karmagen.

Yeah one with 9/9 is, but one with 10/10 isn't unless your willing to leave all your other attributes to 1 except for one at 2.
In BP-gen that same 10/10 troll can raise all his other attributes to 2 and one to 3 even.
etherial
QUOTE (Mäx @ Nov 2 2010, 03:28 AM) *
Yeah one with 9/9 is, but one with 10/10 isn't unless your willing to leave all your other attributes to 1 except for one at 2.
In BP-gen that same 10/10 troll can raise all his other attributes to 2 and one to 3 even.


My character (when I'm not GMing) is one of the few character concepts that gets seriously fucked up by Karmagen. That 11th point of Strength puts him ludicrously over the Attribute spending limit for character creation, though even he ends up with Karma leftover to raise sideline skills.
sabs
remember that for Trolls the karma attribute limit is:
375+(bp cost *2) so 455
Glyph
A 10/10 troll isn't normally doable in BP, either, since BP only allows you to max out one Attribute at char-gen. Although there are several qualities (Exceptional Attribute, etc.) that would let you do it.

But yeah, the karmagen system punishes certain builds. I statted up a former joyboy, kind of a Mr. Lucky/pornomancer mix, and he wouldn't convert to karmagen - the cost for a human with high Edge and Magic put him over that 375 mark. Ironically, the total cost for the character was only 674. It was just that 375 karma cap (which, unlike BP, includes special Attributes) that did it in.
Karoline
QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 4 2010, 01:17 PM) *
(which, unlike BP, includes special Attributes) that did it in.

I've always found that to be the one poor (And pointless) point of karmagen, and is one I ignore if possible.

But you are right, high str/bod trolls do poorly in karmagen, but they're nearly the only ones that have that problem (As evident by the fact that it is the only thing ever mentioned).
etherial
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 4 2010, 01:56 PM) *
remember that for Trolls the karma attribute limit is:
375+(bp cost *2) so 455


Which would be doable if he had no other Attributes above 2.
sabs
QUOTE (etherial @ Nov 4 2010, 08:00 PM) *
Which would be doable if he had no other Attributes above 2.


Slight Hyperbole

Body 11
Agility 4
Strength 7
Reaction 4
Charisma 2
Intuition 2
Logic 2
Willpower 2

would get you to 450
Glyph
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 4 2010, 10:57 AM) *
I've always found that to be the one poor (And pointless) point of karmagen, and is one I ignore if possible.

But you are right, high str/bod trolls do poorly in karmagen, but they're nearly the only ones that have that problem (As evident by the fact that it is the only thing ever mentioned).

Shapeshifters can have that same "high stat" problem, although in their case, their higher racial cost works to their advantage, letting them spend a lot more on Attributes at the expense of being more bare-bones at other areas. Awakened characters, in general, have to resign themselves to using Edge as a dump stat, at least humans. And infected characters can run into trouble - because first of all, it is treated as a quality, meaning they have to spend double the points on it. And second of all, they get higher base Attributes, but don't get any extra points that they are allowed to spend on them.

AI's and free spirits have the opposite problem. They were balanced mainly by their super-high racial cost, but in Karmagen, they wind up with a lot more points left over afterwards. A free spirit in BP spends 250 BP, and has 150 BP left. A free spirit in karmagen spends 250 karma, and has 500 Karma left. Big difference! I think Ancient History has admitted that karmagen was never intended to be used for AI's or free spirits.
etherial
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 4 2010, 03:31 PM) *
Slight Hyperbole

Body 11
Agility 4
Strength 7
Reaction 4
Charisma 2
Intuition 2
Logic 2
Willpower 2

would get you to 450


Slight hyperbole, yes. Though my character's an Adept, so it might look more like this:


Body 5
Agility 4
Strength 11
Reaction 3
Charisma 2
Intuition 3
Logic 2
Willpower 2
Magic 5
sabs
Counting Edge and Magic in the 1/2 for attributes seems completely unfair and a mistake in the Karma Gen rules.
Yerameyahu
Or maybe not counting them in BP is the mistake; either way, you'd think they'd match. biggrin.gif
etherial
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 4 2010, 04:50 PM) *
Or maybe not counting them in BP is the mistake; either way, you'd think they'd match. biggrin.gif


I really don't see a reason for there to be a half in KarmaGen, since high attributes is the best way to minmax BP expenditures and not particularly minmaxxy in KarmaGen at all.
Zyerne
I'm contemplating going old school and applying attrib bonuses after buying points rather than before.

I've just costed the 3 troll archetypes in the book, not counting special attribs, and they come out thus -

Bounty Hunter - 340 Karma (Pre Racial Mod stat line 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 - 31 points)

Enforcer - 370 Karma (Pre Racial Mod stat line 5 4 3 5 4 4 3 3 - 31 points)

Street Shaman - 355 Karma (Pre Racial Mod stat line 1 4 3 1 6 5 5 4 - 29 points)

The bounty hunter has the most average stat line and the lowest overall cost., the Enforcer pays a little extra for his 2 5s and the Street Shaman, although in the middle for cost, loses out on 2 overall stat points, the price he pays for going againts the troll norm.

I'm still looking at overall balancing and metatype costs. I think it could work but I'm not sure if it will
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