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pbangarth
Two questions:

A)
On page 92 of Runner's Companion, under Free Spirit Magic, we are told that Free Spirit PCs can Initiate and learn metamagics. Just above, under Free Spirit Attributes, we are told that the Free Spirit NPC rules apply, except as directed on page 91 under Born Free that Free Spirit PC rules differ in some regards from Free Spirit NPC rules. So, my primary assumption is that Free Spirit PCs operate metamagics the same as Free Spirit NPCs except in those cases in which we are told in Runner's Companion they are different.

Under Free Spirit Magic, we are not expressly told what Attribute to use for a Free Spirit PC when using a metamagic, Initiate grade or Edge. Therefore, I default to the Free Spirit NPC description in Street Magic page 107 under New Powers which tells us that Free Spirits use Edge in place of Initiate Grade.

Is this the correct reading for Free Spirit PCs using metamagics?

This is a powerfully important question for my Free Spirit PC who is earning karma and is considering how to spend it. I am interested in having her initiate and gain more Free Spirit powers, however this is mitigated by the fact that in karmagen I built her with the Lucky Quality and an Edge of 7. So, for example, she has a middling level of Counterspelling (combat) of 3 (5). If she Initiates and takes the metamagic of Shielding, using Edge as the modifier gives her another 7 dice to Counterspelling. Awesome!

Now, this needs to be seen in the light of the stricture that Free Spirit PCs are not allowed foci, so a magician with grade 3 Initiation and a Force 4 Shielding Focus has the same net effect, it just took him longer to get there. We used the karmagen system, with the ruling that the BP character cost be paid in karma, so I paid 250 karma off the top to make this PC a Free Spirit. So a magician built with the same system could actually have been at or almost at this point (in Shielding) already out of chargen.

B)

The Flux advanced metamagic on page 61 of Street Magic scrambles the link between the Initiate and foci and potential material links. It lasts for a few hours with no negative effects, but maintaining it beyond that time limit runs risks for the Initiate.

Would the activation of this metmagic interfere, at least for its duration of activation, with the spirit formula link that compels a Free Spirit to come to a summoner who may try to Bind her? (See page 107 of Street Magic under True Names.)

The ramifications of this to a Free Spirit PC are obvious.
Neraph
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 8 2010, 09:59 AM) *
Two questions:

A)
On page 92 of Runner's Companion, under Free Spirit Magic, we are told that Free Spirit PCs can Initiate and learn metamagics. Just above, under Free Spirit Attributes, we are told that the Free Spirit NPC rules apply, except as directed on page 91 under Born Free that Free Spirit PC rules differ in some regards from Free Spirit NPC rules. So, my primary assumption is that Free Spirit PCs operate metamagics the same as Free Spirit NPCs except in those cases in which we are told in Runner's Companion they are different.

Under Free Spirit Magic, we are not expressly told what Attribute to use for a Free Spirit PC when using a metamagic, Initiate grade or Edge. Therefore, I default to the Free Spirit NPC description in Street Magic page 107 under New Powers which tells us that Free Spirits use Edge in place of Initiate Grade.

Is this the correct reading for Free Spirit PCs using metamagics?

This is a powerfully important question for my Free Spirit PC who is earning karma and is considering how to spend it. I am interested in having her initiate and gain more Free Spirit powers, however this is mitigated by the fact that in karmagen I built her with the Lucky Quality and an Edge of 7. So, for example, she has a middling level of Counterspelling (combat) of 3 (5). If she Initiates and takes the metamagic of Shielding, using Edge as the modifier gives her another 7 dice to Counterspelling. Awesome!

Now, this needs to be seen in the light of the stricture that Free Spirit PCs are not allowed foci, so a magician with grade 3 Initiation and a Force 4 Shielding Focus has the same net effect, it just took him longer to get there. We used the karmagen system, with the ruling that the BP character cost be paid in karma, so I paid 250 karma off the top to make this PC a Free Spirit. So a magician built with the same system could actually have been at or almost at this point (in Shielding) already out of chargen.

I'd track both separately (IE: I got Centering with Spirit Powers, so I'm using Edge for that one, and I got Shielding with Initation, so I use Initiate Grade for that one). Technically they would all operate at a rating equal to your Edge though, as Initiating only gives an extra Power Point for spirit powers.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 8 2010, 09:59 AM) *
B)

The Flux advanced metamagic on page 61 of Street Magic scrambles the link between the Initiate and foci and potential material links. It lasts for a few hours with no negative effects, but maintaining it beyond that time limit runs risks for the Initiate.

Would the activation of this metmagic interfere, at least for its duration of activation, with the spirit formula link that compels a Free Spirit to come to a summoner who may try to Bind her? (See page 107 of Street Magic under True Names.)

The ramifications of this to a Free Spirit PC are obvious.

Since it also mentions "possible ritual links," I'd assume it works for spirit formulae as well. Sure, they could theoretically sever ties with Formulae that are already written, but new ones can be drawn up and there exists the possibility that you lose a point of Magic.
Karoline
A)
QUOTE
All rules on in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition and Street Magic
regarding the abilities and limitations of Materializing and
Possession free spirits apply as normal.

Is that what you are talking about as the rule under free spirit attributes? Because that is the only rule regarding other sources that I can find. This is specifically in regard to Materialization and Possession, not to any other aspect of a free spirit.

Given that I can't find the rule you're trying to use, I'd have to say that PC free spirits would use initiation grade just like any other PC would, since the section in RC makes no mention of treating a free spirit differently from a metahuman in regards to initiation (other than the two metamagics that they can't take and the option for spirit powers instead of metamagics).

B)
That is a little trickier, as it has huge implications for a free spirit. My first thought was to say no, and that attempting it would disrupt the free spirit since they require that link to continue existing (Hence why they don't just destroy it), but then I thought of the highly similar initiation task that also creates something that cannot be destroyed without causing harm to the maker. There is nothing that says that that is disrupted when using Flux, so there is no reason that it should disrupt a free spirit using it.

So, from there, looking at the Flux description, it mentions that it disrupts those links, but it also mentions crunchy wise that the only thing it does is prevent astral targeting and tracking. Perhaps a bit rulesy, but I'd use that to mean that the spirit formula cannot be used to track/target the spirit, but still to command the spirit. Basically flux prevents an outsider following the link in any way, but it doesn't mean that the link no longer exists (You can still use foci while using flux for example), and thus while the person holding the spirit formula cannot follow the link to the spirit, the link still exists, and can still be used to compel the spirit.
Seth
QUOTE
Is that what you are talking about as the rule under free spirit attributes? Because that is the only rule regarding other sources that I can find. This is specifically in regard to Materialization and Possession, not to any other aspect of a free spirit

There are only two types of free spirits: materialising and possessing. As I read the statement it clearly says that "All rules on in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition and Street Magic regarding the abilities and limitations of Materializing and Possession free spirits apply as normal". I am trying to read this in such a way that the statement is about the materialisation power and the possession power, but struggle. It seems to me clear (curse the use of natural language for defining rules) that all the rules about spirits (both possessing and materialisation) apply.

Having said that I agree with the earlier reply about initiation grade and edge. As an example I can get the spirit power masking for three points that works on edge, or the initiate power masking that works using the initiation grade for effectively one point (i.e. one initiation).

I am currently playing a free spirit created with 550 karma under karmagen, and in many ways I am vastly inferior to the rest of the party (spell casting, combat, sustaining spells, skill use...) however I am an excellent scout: so far slightly ahead of the rigger in capability. I think the secret of being a player PC free spirit is to recognise that the magicians are always going to be much better than you in magical skills, so concentrate on things you are good at: aiding others, concealing, movement, accident are all awesome powers, and you can do them when you want. Things that are trivial to you are hard to others and vice versa: Any magical opponents will chew you up, but you are almost invulnerable to non magical foes. Wards are crippling: as a non initiate there is no way to cross a ward without telling the creator, so stealth missions are challenging. You can teleport which as far as I know cannot be done by spell casting. Sadly a good summoner can do anything you can do and better, but you get the fun of doing it, instead of summoning a pet to do it.
Karoline
QUOTE (Seth @ Nov 8 2010, 03:03 PM) *
There are only two types of free spirits: materialising and possessing. As I read the statement it clearly says that "All rules on in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition and Street Magic regarding the abilities and limitations of Materializing and Possession free spirits apply as normal". I am trying to read this in such a way that the statement is about the materialisation power and the possession power, but struggle. It seems to me clear (curse the use of natural language for defining rules) that all the rules about spirits (both possessing and materialisation) apply.

Well, for me it is the fact that they use materializing, as in 'things to do with materialization' as opposed to simply 'free spirits' or 'materialization free spirits'. Of course at the same time they use possession instead of possessing, so they're internally inconstant. You could take it to read either way. You could take it to be that they mean all rules regarding free spirits, or you could take it to mean all rules regarding materialization and possession. Like I said, though, if the meant the former, I don't see why they didn't just say 'regarding the abilities and limitations of free spirits' instead of throwing in 'materializing and possession'. But, the free spirit section is already notorious for poor wording thanks to that whole 'force determines natural minimums and maximums for all attributes.' part.
pbangarth
There actually are Inhabiting type Free Spirits as well. The discussion so far outlines my own mixed understanding. I hope it continues with more input from others.

Wards are crippling unless you go for the 3 point Aura Masking. I did that with 750 karma. At 550 karma I can see that it would be a difficult power to afford.
Seth
QUOTE
Wards are crippling unless you go for the 3 point Aura Masking

Why does masking significantly help?

My understanding of wards / masking is as follows:
You can sleaze past a ward if you can pretend to be the creator of the ward. To do so you have to see the owner, have a link to the owner or astrally track. Tracking takes ages: its an interval of an hour, with 5 successes needed, but if the creator is behind a ward you need to add the rating of the ward to the threshold. So for a rating 6 ward that's 11 successes needed which is going to take a few hours, need a stonkingly good assensing skill, and all the time you are doing this you are vulnerable to the astral patrols.

Mind you if you get a chance to watch the creator walk through the ward you are laughing as you could then use the masking immediately.

I'm comparing this to the wizard's option of turning off all spells / foci, walking through the ward, and turning them back on again.

I am of course planing on making masking my very first metamagic (which isn't anywhere near as nice as your 3 pt version) just so that I have a chance of getting past the wards. My only other strategies at the moment are
  • Trust a wizard with my truename to summon me on the far side (not very attractive as a scouting option)
  • Smash the ward, get through it (having alerted the creator) and once I have been through it I can always "teleport" to somewhere I have been. So this strategy is only of value if I don't mind causing an alert some time before the main run
Karoline
Thought you could mask yourself to be mundane, and thus not trigger the ward at all.
Neraph
I thought the other way was to use Masking to appear nonmagical and just walk through it, although it would take a lot of Initation to do so. Or is that even possible?
Seth
QUOTE
Thought you could mask yourself to be mundane, and thus not trigger the ward at all.

I have no idea if this would work. If so its awesome.

Edit: Mind you I think that masking makes you appear to assensing as though you were something else. I think the ward doesn't care what you look like: if you are dual natured / on the astral plane the ward will stop you I think
Karoline
QUOTE (Seth @ Nov 9 2010, 09:53 PM) *
I have no idea if this would work. If so its awesome.

Edit: Mind you I think that masking makes you appear to assensing as though you were something else. I think the ward doesn't care what you look like: if you are dual natured / on the astral plane the ward will stop you I think

That's a good point and likely true. So yeah, a spirit would need masking and be able to assensse the creating mage or someone allowed to pass through it.
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