Hi all, I'm just getting back into shadow run and I have a question about long busts. In the rules it says that a long burst only takes a single simple action, but that you can only fire one long burst per pass. I was wondering if a character with ambidexterity with a smg in each hand would be able to fire two long bursts, first one with one hand, and then with the next simple action another long burst with the other hand? Any help would be appreciated as this will effect how I build my character.

Just one per character per IP (usually, HV is different IIRC). I forget if it's true, but I *thought* you could also do a 'two-hand' double long-burst as one Simple Action.

Ya you can, but with a split to your dice pool. I was thinking that this way since the two bursts are from different simple actions and different guns you would be able to use the hole dice pool both times.

Shure He can
1Long Burst per IP is per Weapon.
Two Ingram Smart X (f.E.) means two Long Burst

Hough !
Medicineman

Expect the rules don't say that anywhere and if thats true the limit doesn't make any kind of sense what so ever.
Either you have time in one IP to do 2 longbursts or you don't, having 2 guns(or 4 or 6 for that matter) Shouldn't be able to make any difference to that.

If we want to be logically correct here we need to say, that each weapon is only allowed a maximum of 4 (or five dependant on if you classify drugs as technology) long bursts per round. Thus it makes sense, that a 1 IP Character can fire two long bursts in his round and the the 4 IP Character can only fire one long burst per IP. If you consider maximum amount of bullets per second etc. this does add up to a reasonable number. (I'd need to crunch the numbers on paper, but at least I guess it turns out correct)

Specifically addressed in Arsenal, page 163.

As I read it, you can fire two long bursts in the same simple action, but not one from one, then one from the other over two simple actions.

It does not state that you cannot do the following.

Simple Action 1
Gun 1: Long Burst
Gun 2: Short Burst

Simple Action 2
Gun 1: Short Burst
Gun 2: Long Burst

Reading the rules, it seems to imply that such an action is possible due to the statement that firing a long burst from each weapon is permissible thus establishing the guideline that the one long burst per pass is a weapon limitation not a character limitation. However both guns MUST be set to full auto mode (which does still allow short bursts).

Obviously you can fire longburst from 2 different guns if you do it with with the same single action, as then your firing the burst simultaneously from both guns so time(nor anythink else really) can't be a limiting factor stopping that.

But the rules in the corebook very clearly dissallow you from firing 2 long burst one after the other.

I feel that the rules, with Arsenal's addition, lean more towards firing one long burst per weapon per initiative pass. The entire section on firing modes is written as a weapon rules topic, not a character rules topic meaning that the rules are a limitation of the weapon and not the character. It is certainly written from the perspective of using a single weapon, not dual-wielding. We know that you can fire a long short burst from a single weapon which utilizes 9 rounds. A full burst, which take the same amount of time as a short/long, utilizes 10 rounds.

From a purely mechanics perspective, allowing Long-Long from a single weapon would hedge full bursts usage off even more, since you could get a higher damage output using long-long than a single full. That much is obvious. It's the arsenal's statement that you can fire two long bursts in the same simple action that throws the only one long burst to the wind. If the rules limited you to Long-Short and Short-Short for your weapon, then denying the ability do Long-Short and Short-Long would make perfect sense. However, the net results of Long-Short/Long-Short and Long-Short/Short-Long are the same in the end since recoil accumulates on a per weapon basis. I will cede that in that case you get a single hit benefit on the first short burst you fire, but that is only over firing Long-Short/Long-Short and does not give you that hit advantage over Short-Long/Short-Long.

The way I see it, the effects of the Arsenal rule allowing you to fire a long burst from each weapon serves to force the one long burst per IP rule into a per weapon rule, much like how recoil modifiers stack.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. If you use a single (non-HV) weapon you are right, of course. Only one long burst per initiative phase is allowed. Why is that so? Well, full auto fires 10 rounds per phase, so we can assume that this is the max number of rounds that can be fired in one initiative phase. Since 6 rounds are more than half this number, it is clear that there simply isn't enough time in an ini phase to fire 2 long bursts. Interestingly, HV weapon fire 12 rounds in full auto per ini phase, so they can fire 2 long bursts of 6 rounds.

Let's get back to using two weapons. If you fire a long burst from the first weapon, this will take more than half the time you have during this ini phase (60% to be precise). So it isn't possible to fire two long bursts from two weapons in one ini phase one after the other. After the first long burst, you only have time left in your phase to fire at max 4 more bullets (so a short burst of three rounds is allowed).
To fire two long bursts from two weapons you will have to start with the second bursts before the first burst is finished.

-CJ

Except a Simple Action is a Simple Action
We don't have 'time slices' in Shadowrun.

We have 3 second round. Everything else isn't 'timed' it's arbitrary cutting up of the round into IP's and then Actions.

Well, the max is 20 rounds in an IP if you use suppressive fire, but we can quietly argue that with a full burst you're still trying to hit a target and thus 10 rounds is the upper bounds of what is capable while retaining accuracy.



HV weapons are quite relevant in this regard. Why can they, and they alone, fire two long bursts in a single IP? This serves to show that long bursts are weapon feature and rule, not a character rule. If a long burst was too complex for a character to fire two in a single IP, then the HV weapon would not exist. Thus long burst rules are a function of bullet throughput rather than complexity.

Leads me to wonder.... can a character with two HV-SMGs fire Long-Long/Long-Long? Wicked awesome.

2 long bursts on the same simple action with split dice pool is very different to 2 long bursts on different simple actions with full dice pools.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way to do it is with a pair of HV SMGs. Preferably modfied ones, not those nasty Supermach things.

Technicall with a pair of HV SMG's you could do 4 Long Bursts in 1 IP

You could, but with split pools and likely a ton of uncomped recoil, the the second pair probably wouldn't hit very much.

Getting technical you can do 12 longburst in 1IP with 6 HV guns(someone with shiva arms*2)

What you do narrow bursts first, then wide bursts.

Okay, lemme start from the beginning. I will use the following syntax Gun1 SimpleAction1-Gun1 SimpleAction2/Gun2 SimpleAction1-Gun2 SimpleAction1

We know the following scenarios are all valid.

With normal full auto weapons.
Short-Short/Short-Short
Long-Short/Long-Short
Short-Long/Short-Long
Long-Short/Short-Short and any variation that includes a single long burst

We also know that any burst fired from HV weapons, single or dual wielded, can be either short or long.

The HV upgrade modifies the amount of rounds that a weapon can spit out accurately as defined by the number of rounds a weapon fires in full auto burst (10 for normal weapons, 12 for HV). HV weapons do not modify the number of rounds utilized in a long burst (6). Thus it is not unreasonable to assume that the reason for HV weapons being capable of firing two long bursts is due to the raising the cap to 12 on how many bullets can be fired in a single action phase.

For the sake of argument, I define a rule as a character rule or a weapon rule. A character rule defines how a character may act. A weapon rule defines how a weapon can behave. Prior to Arsenal, the rules left one long burst open as either a character or weapon rule. It could be interpreted as a character rule with one long burst being an absolute. It could be interpreted as a weapon rule due to the mechanics of burst and full auto firing.

Arsenal changed the game with it's talk about firing two long bursts at the same time with two weapons. You can view this in two ways. Given that long bursts were potentially a weapon or character rule in the core book, Arsenal could have just been clarifying the original rule. It could also have been adding a new rule that allowed two long bursts in a single simple action. This rule hasn't done much to make the waters clear. The rule doesn't explicitly deny that a Short-Long/Long-Short style of action is inappropriate, only that one long burst with each weapon IS appropriate when the weapons are fired together, but does not extend to examining it beyond a single simple action.

However, I think the real kicker that makes the one long burst rule a weapon rule with a limitation based on rounds fire, rather than a character rule where the limitation is based on complexity of the action, is the high velocity rules presented in Arsenal that clearly state that a weapon can fire Long-Long.

In FA mode they are long burst only, BF mode they are regular burst only. The only way to mix burst types with an HV weapon is to switch firing modes mid IP.

I still don't think the rules are clear enough on the possibility that one wants to fire two long bursts from two-different non-HV weapons with two different simple actions on the same IP. I personally feel its an item limitation, but others think its a character limitation. The Arsenal example is just vague enough that it doesn't clarify which is correct. This is probably one rule we'll just have to leave as a GM call for now.

It being only an item limitation doesn't make any sense what so ever, as someone with 4IP can fire 4 fullbursts with that same weapon in the same time it tooks an other 1IP guy to shoot one.
So for the limit to make any sense it kinda has to be a combination of those 2 types, meaning a normal non HV-gun cannot fire the bullets fast enought that you can aim one long burst and then aim an other longburst after that one, the HV-gun on the other hand does fire just fast enought that you have time to aim and shoot a second longburst in the same timeframe.

Just mod your guns for HV. Problem solved.

Also, I've always been enamored with the idea of getting a machinegun adept's centering up high enough to dual weild two HV smgs to engage 8 nearby targets per pass with 4 short bursts per gun.

A normal person that holds the trigger down on a FA gun for one combat round shoots 20 rounds of ammo, a hacker with some good cyber and snazzy commlink holds down the trigger on an FA gun on thier drone and he ends up shooting 100 rounds of ammo in the same singular combat round. This has nothing to do with realism, common sense, or a guns normal cyclic rate of fire, it is strictly a game balance issue.

Not doable, you're describing full bursts which are strictly a complex action. Firing two weapons with the same action can only be done with simple actions, not complex.

It looks like it is not a cut and dry situation. Just to be on the safe side I think I'll modify my character concept.

Thanks for the replies all.