Obviously organized crime/Mafia can and is used by intelligence agencies as deniable and covert assets. Do any of the books mention the Tir having any major mafia arms or mafia connections in the UCAS? particularly Seattle.
Also, is their an official and known name for any Tir intelligence agencies? I know about the Ghosts, but I thought they were a paramilitary group like the Navy Seals.
My 6th world almanac doesn't say anything on the subject as far as I can tell.
It's alright if I have to make it all up. I just don't want to make up something that conflicts with the fluff.
I'd love some help or pointers.
Full Version: Organized Crime/ Mafia arms of the Tir
Which Tir?
The closest that we got are the Laésa, the Elven Mafia. However they don't exactly have any ties to Tir Tairngire as it was founded by Tir exiles (Laésa supposedly means 'the forgotten' in Sperethial). According to the sourcebook, the core of the Laésa are a group who were looking to oust the Council of Princes. They are the prime source for elven goods however so they have a pipeline into the Tir somehow. Source: Seattle 2072.
QUOTE (Laésa @ Seattle p180)
The criminal contacts they built in Tarislar absorbed some local elven gangs like the Princes of the Blood, forming a secret organization devoted to funneling information, resources, and contraband into Tir Tairngire, extracting the same, and bringing it to Seattle.
Minor aside: SEALS (and Ghosts) are Special Forces, not paramilitaries.
QUOTE (Zyerne @ Nov 10 2010, 04:16 PM) 
Minor aside: SEALS (and Ghosts) are Special Forces, not paramilitaries.
Since you stopped by just to nitpick, I'll nitpick your nitpickings.
See, many words have multiple definitions.
One definition of Special Forces is "A branch of the U.S. Army composed of soldiers specially trained in guerrilla fighting." This is a fairly narrow definition. It would be unfair to only apply this definition in this argument, and I know that, but I could.
You have applied an equally narrow definition of the word paramilitary in this case. Perhaps you used this definition: "of or relating to a group of civilians organized to function like or to assist a military unit" However, I was using it in the following sense: "'Paramilitary groups' are bodies which act together with the military institution but which at the same time exercise irregular action, deviated, deformed, from the military."
How about broadening both of our definitions a little bit, and you'll see that we're both right, and your nitpicking was unnecessary.
Don't forget the Ancients. As one of the largest gangs in North America, they don't rank that much behind the big syndicates. Even if their relation to Tir Tairngire is a bit ambivalent, they've always been infiltrated by Tir agents.
Local organized crime in Tir Tairngire is IIRC quite fractured and organized in a corporate fashion with "legitimate" front businesses. But that's from the 17-year-old Tir Tairngire sourcebook.
There is a secret police agency called the "Information Secretariat" mentioned in SoNA.
IMHO Tir Tairngire would probably also conduct Intelligence operations through Tir corps like Telestrian Industries.
Local organized crime in Tir Tairngire is IIRC quite fractured and organized in a corporate fashion with "legitimate" front businesses. But that's from the 17-year-old Tir Tairngire sourcebook.
There is a secret police agency called the "Information Secretariat" mentioned in SoNA.
IMHO Tir Tairngire would probably also conduct Intelligence operations through Tir corps like Telestrian Industries.
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Nov 10 2010, 11:31 PM)
Since you stopped by just to nitpick, I'll nitpick your nitpickings.
See, many words have multiple definitions.
One definition of Special Forces is "A branch of the U.S. Army composed of soldiers specially trained in guerrilla fighting." This is a fairly narrow definition. It would be unfair to only apply this definition in this argument, and I know that, but I could.
You have applied an equally narrow definition of the word paramilitary in this case. Perhaps you used this definition: "of or relating to a group of civilians organized to function like or to assist a military unit" However, I was using it in the following sense: "'Paramilitary groups' are bodies which act together with the military institution but which at the same time exercise irregular action, deviated, deformed, from the military."
How about broadening both of our definitions a little bit, and you'll see that we're both right, and your nitpicking was unnecessary.
See, many words have multiple definitions.
One definition of Special Forces is "A branch of the U.S. Army composed of soldiers specially trained in guerrilla fighting." This is a fairly narrow definition. It would be unfair to only apply this definition in this argument, and I know that, but I could.
You have applied an equally narrow definition of the word paramilitary in this case. Perhaps you used this definition: "of or relating to a group of civilians organized to function like or to assist a military unit" However, I was using it in the following sense: "'Paramilitary groups' are bodies which act together with the military institution but which at the same time exercise irregular action, deviated, deformed, from the military."
How about broadening both of our definitions a little bit, and you'll see that we're both right, and your nitpicking was unnecessary.
Sorry to burst the bubble, but paramilitary doesn't mean what you think it means.
Tir Ghosts are very specifically, canonically, Special Operations military units. Paramilitary units are mercenary armies like MET2000, Picador's operation, or even Knight Errant's Firewatch teams. Paramilitary acts like a military unit in regards to structure and even tactics at times without being an actual military unit.
As for Tir deniable assets, gangs like the Ancients would be the first step.
You can deny accepted definitions of words if you want. That wont stop me from using them.
QUOTE (ProfGast @ Nov 10 2010, 04:13 PM)
The closest that we got are the Laésa, the Elven Mafia. However they don't exactly have any ties to Tir Tairngire as it was founded by Tir exiles (Laésa supposedly means 'the forgotten' in Sperethial). According to the sourcebook, the core of the Laésa are a group who were looking to oust the Council of Princes. They are the prime source for elven goods however so they have a pipeline into the Tir somehow. Source: Seattle 2072.
QUOTE (EKBT81 @ Nov 10 2010, 04:35 PM)
Don't forget the Ancients. As one of the largest gangs in North America, they don't rank that much behind the big syndicates. Even if their relation to Tir Tairngire is a bit ambivalent, they've always been infiltrated by Tir agents.
Local organized crime in Tir Tairngire is IIRC quite fractured and organized in a corporate fashion with "legitimate" front businesses. But that's from the 17-year-old Tir Tairngire sourcebook.
There is a secret police agency called the "Information Secretariat" mentioned in SoNA.
IMHO Tir Tairngire would probably also conduct Intelligence operations through Tir corps like Telestrian Industries.
Local organized crime in Tir Tairngire is IIRC quite fractured and organized in a corporate fashion with "legitimate" front businesses. But that's from the 17-year-old Tir Tairngire sourcebook.
There is a secret police agency called the "Information Secretariat" mentioned in SoNA.
IMHO Tir Tairngire would probably also conduct Intelligence operations through Tir corps like Telestrian Industries.
Thank you both for your informative and relevant postings. I really appreciate it.
These things being mentioned, how would you go about crafting a player character in terms of contacts & knowledge skills that reflects some relationship with both Tir intelligence and these criminal enterprises?
I love arguments driven by grammar and vocabulary.
And spelling. 
Welcome to the internet, Pollux and Presence, and to Dumpshock in particular. Get used to it. 
To the OP? Several of my characters have that general sort of background, and I always opted for Tir politics, general Underworld knowledge (maybe with a Laesa spec), Smuggling Routes (maybe Portland spec), Gang Lore (Ancients spec), and that sort of thing. The Ancients probably do most of what you want them to do, given their military ties, their criminal ties, their smuggling ties (for a good reason to be in Seattle instead of the Tir), yadda yadda yadda...it's hard to go wrong with the Ancients as the go-to group for this sort of thing, in my opinion.
10 Gangs has a write-up on the Laesa, for the record. They're definitely a pretty unique gang/syndicate.
To the OP? Several of my characters have that general sort of background, and I always opted for Tir politics, general Underworld knowledge (maybe with a Laesa spec), Smuggling Routes (maybe Portland spec), Gang Lore (Ancients spec), and that sort of thing. The Ancients probably do most of what you want them to do, given their military ties, their criminal ties, their smuggling ties (for a good reason to be in Seattle instead of the Tir), yadda yadda yadda...it's hard to go wrong with the Ancients as the go-to group for this sort of thing, in my opinion.
10 Gangs has a write-up on the Laesa, for the record. They're definitely a pretty unique gang/syndicate.
There are organized crime groups mentioned in the old tir tairngire book. They are set up more like corporations then the classical mafia tho.
Not sure how much of that survived the SR4 transition.
Not sure how much of that survived the SR4 transition.
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