I am trying to build small concealed shaped explosives, using Shadowrun equipment and skills, for the purpose of assassinating a target; analogous to poisoning someone.

I have one example: Explosive Beer Bottle

The explosive is designed to detonate only when the bottle is opened and the fluid (beer) comes in contact with a conductive electrical ground (saline inside the mouth). This triggers a small electric discharge in the detonator, which in turn triggers the explosive charge. The intention is to have the bottle explode directly in front of the target’s face.

However, by using the general rules I came up with the following:
Explosive Type: Explosive Foam (Rating 13).
Explosive Placement: Inside dark glass bottle.
Explosive Amount = 25 grams = 0.025 kilograms (it cannot be much more than this if you want to prevent detection).
Explosive Damage Value = [13] x [0.025^0.5] = 2 DV.

Realistically, 25 grams of high explosives should be enough to blow someone’s face off and cush their frontal skull. In order to increase the DV to a reasonable level, I looked at the following rules:

Directional Explosion Blast: in the core rules this improves the blast strength loss from –2 DV per meter to –1 DV per meter. How would this improve the DV at point blank range? Maybe increase it by 1.5X (2DV becomes 3DV)?

Called Shot: In normal combat, targeting the head/face increases the DV by +4. Can this be applied in this case?

Surprise: The target would obviously not know what hit him, so no Dodge or defending in any way.

If all rules apply, then the DV would become 7, and assuming there is no armor on the face, it would be a strait Body test to resist the Damage. This means that it is still basically impossible to kill someone in this manner. The guy would have a very bad day, but alive.

Any ideas from the group to make this more realistic?
Much appreciated

The Advanced Demolition rules in Arsenal should cover what you want (although the idea of spit activating it seems silly).

Increasing the blast radius doesn't (as you noted) and *shouldn't* increase the blast damage.

An explosive can't Call a shot. Even if you could, you can *either* Call a shot to increase DV *or* bypass armor, not both.

Yes, the explosives rules are pretty weird in places, and they're really not designed for such a tiny charge. However, you can fit a lot more than 25g in there, up to Rating 15, and you have several skill-based options to increase the deadliness (in particular, +1 DV per net hit). On the other hand, this is the same as putting a gun to someone's head while they sleep: if you use the *combat* rules, it won't kill them. That's why you should instead use 'dramatic override'; really, it's not about 'realism' anyway, but drama. Ask your GM.

IANA demo expert, but really 25g won't kill them. the glass shrapnel will make them wish they were, however.

you'd probably need some sort of EFP (basically, a bullet) to actually kill them.

I couldn’t find any rules for small explosives in advance demolitions section of Arsenal. Do you know the page number?

Regarding the detonation system (“spit activation”), the beer has electrolytes, which allows it to hold an electrical change while inside the insulating glass bottle (i.e. – weak capacitor). Once it comes in contact with a mouth the charge is free to move/spread to the electrolytes of the body’s saliva. A microscopic circuit placed inside the bottle can easily detect the change in the electrical charge, thus triggering the detonator.

I was using the Called Shot rule to get an idea of the increase in DV if the attack is focused directly to the face. I’m not saying the explosive is making a “called shot”.

Is "dramatic override" a special rule, or just hyper-dramatic role-playing?

Good point... Are there rules for emplacing a shotgun round to make a booby trap?

Only if it's in a shotgun.

I still don't think the spit trigger is very sound (I don't think it's *impossible*); why not just trigger on the lips touching? What if they pour it into a dirty glass? But anyway, I just meant that it's odd to have both kinds of Called Shots at once.

No, 'dramatic override' is just the common sense that happens when you're basically making a plot action instead of a combat action. The classic example is that you can't actually murder someone sleeping with a bullet to the head in SR… if you use the combat rules. Which you shouldn't, in that situation.

The demo rules apply to anything. Yes, it's not designed for 25g, and in fact, it's pretty stupid to add significant +1 DV's to a tiny explosive for 'skill'. But hey, that's the rules.

if he drinks out of a glass, you're hosed.

poison would probably be easier.

Poison is too slow
Your first idea was cooler...

Shotgun Round inside a Beer Bottle:

Shotgun Round DV = 9P(f).
“Effective” Called Shot to the Head/Face: +4 DV.
Surprise Attack: No Dodge.
Booby Trap DV = 13.

Assuming no armor on the face, this could kill an average Human!

1) I wouldn't give you full 9P(f) out of something the size of a beer bottle. you don't have enough length to get the muzzle velocity. 7P(f) is what you get out of the Roomsweeper, so that's what i'd go with for what is essentially a sawed-off.

2) if he's actually drinking from the bottle, and you think you need more AP, you don't need flechette, with APDS or EXEX, you aren't going to miss.

I don't get how poison can be "too slow", there are fast-acting toxins in Arsenal.

PS: this method of offing a guy is not subtle in the least, btw. everyone and their mother will suspect foul play.

methanol poisoning would work, for example, and be passed off as an accident.

Maybe a drastic, messy death is the whole point

But since you already have a container (the bottle), why not replace the content with liquid explosive? Even without going over the numbers, I'd dare to claim half a kilo of any decently powerful explosive going off right next to somebody's head leave only one question: How graphically does the GM want to describe the carnage?
As a trigger, I'd use a simple tilt fuze which gets armed when the cap is removed, and triggers when the bottle is turned horizontally.

Indeed, Sengir. KISS is the rule for explosives.

Ok, first: What about the skill roll? There should be a demolition roll made to increase the DV.

Secondly, yes, liquid explosives, instead of just a small cap of explosives at the bottom of the bottle.

Thirdly, I disagree about the disallowing the called shot thing. Basically using called shot on this IS dramatic override.

So, (still using the 25 grams):

25 grams, 2DV, roll the demolition roll for about 5 successes, maybe with edge. That's 7 DV. As the target opens the bottle and starts drinking the GM fudges the called shot to the head, increasing the DV to 11. That's enough to make survival a problem. However, I disagree that no rolling should be involved, and it should all go via GM fiat. Killing people with improvised explosives is very erratic. Very cool when it works, though.

Even so, I disagree that the game rules make it impossible to shoot someone who is sleeping. Rather, they make it possible that the target survives, which is a very good and sound rule.
Average shooter: 6 dice. Point-blank: +3 (IIRC). There used to be another bonus for actually putting the gun to a guys head, right? Is that gone in SR4? Called Shot: -4/+4DV. 4P Light Pistol: 8P + net successes from 5 dice, so probably 8P or 9P. Resisted with Body 3 for one average success. YES, the target might survive this, with 1 box left on his monitor. That's pretty much good enough, I think, as an approximation.

Yeah, I mentioned the net hits +DV earlier (although, in many ways it's a stupid bonus).

And if he has more than 3 Body? It rarely comes up, but the fact is that a gun in their mouth should *kill* them.

Things that can go wrong with IEDs should be covered by the tests done to build and place the bomb. If that test is successful, the charge should work. And once it goes off, which also means the target didn't notice it, there really isn't any skill or physical property (read: attribute) which could avoid that. Three to four hand grenades going off in somebody's face are a clear case of "rocks fall, you die".

Which is not a bad thing, especially against an NPC. They don't matter as much as plot.

Well, with two to three hand grenades, fine. However, you're using a VERY SMALL charge against the target. And I disagree that the target MUST die in that occasion. He should get his relevant chance: His damage resistance roll using Body. Even more so if he's the mission target: Success or failure of the mission should always be determined with the relevant mechanics, or else I can just say "Ok, we kill him with an exploding bottle. Next job." Even if he were "just" a pivotal NPC, I would give him that roll. Only a random NPC with no impact on the plot can be killed off randomly - and why use such a complicated setup to kill random people? Unless you're running a terror campaign...

That and IF he were using three hand grenades, then I would not allow the called shot, in which case it would just be three resistance rolls with armour and everything .

The point is really that the plot must also follow the rules, and shouldn't be predetermined at pivotal points - I could just watch a movie otherwise, or just get on a rail and watch. The actions of the PCs and the consequences determined by the rules should make up the plot at those points.

I was actually using the Demolition Skill to add to the rating of the explosive (each hit adds +1 rating), instead of directly adding to the DV. It’s a bit more realistic when dealing with very small explosives, but definitely add +4 DV for the equivalent “called head-shot”.
And, the target would get to only roll his Body to resist damage; no armor or dodge because I considered it as a Surprise attack to an unprotected part of the body.

Moreover –
I used a second Demolition Skill roll for the detonator to determine if it was placed properly and setup to trigger as intended. This can be supplemented with a Technical Skill (Armorer: if it is a mechanical trigger, Chemistry: if it is chemically triggered, Hardware-Electrical: if it is electronically triggered, etc.). Adding up the net hits of both skill rolls and multiplying by 20% would roughly give the reliability of the detonator.
As always, if there is a critical Glitch during assembly of the detonator then it explodes in the player’s face instead!
Yet a third roll, Palming (maybe Disguise), is needed to properly conceal the booby trap inside the bottle, where each hit negates the hits from the target's would be Perception test.

Does the above sound reasonable?

It sounds hella complicated.

Brainpiercing, I wasn't saying the crazy bottle bomb should kill. I was saying that the pistol execution should.

I have a sudden urge to stat up a shaped charge version of a Ballistic Fist.



-k

Augmentation, Severe Wounds Rule:

Heavy Damage
Any time a character takes a large amount of damage at one
time (7 or more boxes of either Physical or Stun damage from a
single attack)

-Blood Loss: Wherever those bullets went, they took part of a
major artery or vein with them. The character will leak precious
bodily fluids, incurring extra damage as if he is suffering from
Physical Damage Overflow (p. 244, SR4) until the wound is
stabilized.


so it is in the rules to die from a non klling shot

Yes, but it's proven that even in real life people survive being shot in the head from close range. Anything can happen, and if he makes those one or two successes that will let him survive, that's pretty much just his luck.

Lesson to be learned: Double tap. Also in the head .

See above, my idea was to replace the bottle contents with liquid explosives. That means somewhere between one third and half a kilo of kaboom right in somebody's face

1/2 a kilo of kaboom. That should negate the need for a body roll

For an additional nasty, custom make the bottle with flaws in the glass to cause large fragments to fly around or a few decorative wire wraps (like those on the expensive bottles available)

Nah.

One third and half a kilo of kaboom right in somebody's stomach.





-k

Well... I would tend to say it should minimise the success chance of the body roll. If this is your mission target or pivotal NPC, I would expect them to do everything to survive. Resist the damage with body, use edge. Maybe even burn edge. Depending on the situation I would probably not have them use the hand of god survival - that should be reserved for runners, or at most the runner's long-time nemesis.

As to the glass: Well... glass tends to sort of pulverize completely when the liquid it holds explodes. I've had recounts of stuff exploding in chemical labs, and the glass was just GONE. I've also heard of things blowing up in people's faces, and the glass didn't do too much, because it was in such small fragments.

It's it a plot-needed NPC, then they should escape death regardless; if it's not, they should die regardless. In these *specific* situations, it's just simpler than the combat rules.

Best done with nitroglycerin - first the victim's heart behaves like an overclocked CPU without heatsink, then he falls over, hits the ground hard and...

Hand of GM god is of course always possible if the GM wants to, hopefully the victim's healthcare plan has a bulk discount on cyber replacements.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree here. If it's a plot-necessary NPC then the GM should take precautions to keep him alive, but if the runners manage to kill him, well, tough luck. Time to change the plot. And even a non-essential NPC should have a chance to influence the plot, redirect it, if he either dies or stays alive. Just think, if that guy survives, he could come back at the runners with a vengeance, and there you have new plot. The players need to feel that they are actually doing something, here. If you just handwave it, no rolling involved, then what's the point? You can handwave everything. The random chance is what creates the tension and drama.

Everything else just creates a railroad.

Agreed on the glass normally just vanishing into dust. I have seen large flasks shattering into bits the size of your hand, lucky for us the flask was covered in a heavy cloth ... but it was still scary.

But if you strengthen the glass and put stress lines around it you should increase the change of large fragments.

I agree on the pivotal NPC at least having a chance to survive, you could just have the bodyguard pick it up first or accidentally trigger it.

Are there any specific drugs/poisons in Shadowrun that can be used with explosives to prevent blood coagulation?
i.e. – guarantee death from blood loss if the blast doesn’t kill him…

Railroads are good, but that has zero to do with what I'm talking about. One way or anything, the PCs got their gun into the guy's mouth while he's asleep (that's the example scenario)… Drama is destroyed if a pistol in a helpless person's mouth *doesn't* kill them. I refuse to force my PCs to shoot the guy 3 times to be sure, that's all.

Well, maybe you need your worlds more "realistic". The point remains that people have been "executed" with a shot to the head and survived. You CAN botch shooting yourself in the mouth, so you can reasonably also botch shooting someone else.

That and if it's a light pistol we might just be dealing with 8P, if you're not even requiring a roll. As a PC I would want to survive that.

But we're talking semantics, here. If the runners say "we execute the guy", then they do just that, no questions asked, and no rolls involved, because they will just make damn sure he's dead. However, if they only said "we put a bullet in his head", then....

See, that's exactly the problem: that's *too* realistic. As you said, in 'real life', people survive that. Outside real life, they don't.

I agree about your last bit. That's all I'm saying: don't use the demo rules if the point is a dramatic execution by bomb. And don't use some cruddy little bottle.

What's wrong with a bottle-bomb!?
You're relaxing in a hip bar and about to a drink nice cold one, then 'BAM'! Worst day of your life.
So, you live to tell about it, but you got no teeth and your nose is an “inny”.

No, I like it. I just don't want it to be LITTLE.

Er, how does your character feel about collateral damage?

Just curious, does it have to be just one bottle? Can it be a whole case of bottles of "beer"? Edit: What about a keg?

I hope you know where I am going with this, if it must be dead, put two in the head aka build redundancy into your IED. Reduce the chance the target picks up the wrong bottle and have the other bottles go off when the one in his hand/mouth does. I also liked the suggestion of custom crafting the bottle(s) to be frag nades (and the bottle doesn't have to be made of glass, could be metal or some composite material). Also consider making the case holding the "beer" part of the equation too for yet more "umpf", perhaps by making the case first toss the bottles into the air before they go off for a bouncing betty effect.

Not sure if that would ruin the lack of detection thing by having the small amounts of explosive in each bottle. Wouldn't a sealed container make detecting the explosives harder? What do targets in 2072+ use to detect explosives?

Yes, a hermetic seal would do it, if you cleaned the bottle thoroughly. By the time his cybersniffer activates (on open), it's too late.

Ha, why not just call in an air-strike!

The intent here is to kill (or at least come close to killing) a target of importance (thus, the need for well defined rules), indirectly (cannot be there to pull the trigger), in an obvious fashion (no subtle poisoning), while the target is indoors (cannot snipe him), and without killing any bystanders (no collateral damage).

Oh, in that case, I can totally see someone the bottle is not intended for taking a swig and bingo, collateral damage.

*is seen using a comm to call off the drone air strike*

You are making this tough with the no collateral damage thing, especially when it comes to explosives seeing as they have a area of effect radius. Ok, what kind of leg work have you done on your target, what do we know about the targets habits? Does the target wear jewelry? Distinctive clothing or other piece of equipment? Or do you know the indoor location and exactly where the target will be in it and so, perhaps, drop a bit of the ceiling (chandelier for example) on the target without hitting anyone else? Or drop the floor out from under the target and have them drop to their death, perhaps. Hmm, explosive seating arrangement? Favourite culinary past time object other than perhaps one of his body guards might take a sip of first?

By chance, this character wouldn't happen to be trying to pull off a Ray Quick, who IIRC used a teapot because his target would always have tea time ... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111255/