If Bob is in melee with Jim and Bod shoots Jim with his pistol, what are the total modifiere for this attack?

Maybe something like:
Attack roll: +2 (point blank range) -3 (shooting while in melee)
Defense roll: -3 (defending from a shot while in melee)

Is this right?

Unless Bod is in melee combat also that -3 doesn't apply to him (and probably the Point Blank modifier) - it's an Attacker in Melee Combat modifier, not a Target in Melee Combat.

What I am also wondering, can you simply walk away from a melee combat and then shoot? Seems a bit silly.

i.e. A attacks B in melee (charge in and such), then B steps back and shoots at point blank.

Or is the fact, that A attacked B in melee, enough to give the Attacker in Melee modifier to B's shooting attempt already?

Bye
Thanee

point blank means holding the gun against someones head or something else. as long as the opponent is trying to avoid the gun, no sane GM will give you a point plank modifier.

Page 161 has your answer (bolding for pertinent scenario) :

If movement takes a character within one meter of an opponent, and
the character attempts to pass by without attacking the opponent, that
opponent can spend a Free Action to take a free melee attack. This rule
also applies to characters who are attempting to move out of melee
combat. If the opponent has a weapon ready, he uses his normal melee
weapon skill rating; otherwise, he uses Unarmed Combat skill. This
attack follows all of the normal rules for melee combat (see p. 156).
If the character attempting to pass takes damage, he is intercepted
and cannot continue his movement.

So, B can try that, but A gets a free melee attack to prevent him from moving out.

Uhm... as I said "Bob is in melee with Jim"...
Or Bob should be in melee with someone else (who is not the target) to get the -3 dice penalty?

Thanks, deek.

Must have missed that part somehow.




That seems right.



Hmm... I don't think I would apply this to defending against the shot of someone you are in melee with. It also says "in melee combat with another opponent" in the description of that modifier.

Bye
Thanee

Maybe he took that typo (Bod ) a bit too serious?

Bye
Thanee

No problem, Thanee. I play a lot of DnD and we are used to Opportunity Attacks and the like. I probably had been playing SR4 for 2 years before I stumbled on that Intercepting rule. Once I read it, it clicked and was familiar, so I've always just remembered it.

Granted, I've never been part of a game where Intercepting was used, but its nice that its there!

I read this as that the Target Point-Blank modifier does not apply while the Attacker in Melee modifier is in effect.



So this modifier applies as long as someone within two meters does not want you to use your gun. Definately includes the target.



Thus, the defender actually needs to be involved in melee at the time of the attack for the modifier to apply. This might actually not apply if you shoot someone from two meters away, but I'd rule that "trying to block the attack" is a form of close combat.

Therefore, shooting at someone from within one or two meters that is aware of our attack invokes both "Attacker in Melee" and "Defender in Melee" modifiers while offsetting "Target Point-Blank" in my opinion. Effect: both attacker and defender get -3 to their dice pools while locked in a desperate struggle. It's difficult to point your gun at someone who can punch you in the face, but once you manage that the target has a hard time getting away.

If you shoot at someone up close who is not aware of your attack both modifiers do not apply. You get +2 for Target Point-Blank and the attack is a normal success test.

I disagree. "Offset" does not mean that you ignore the modifier. It means you combine them and the new modifier is the sum (-1). Otherwise one point of recoil compensation could "offset" all of the negative recoil modifiers.

I see...that's a good point indeed. Still, I wonder why "Attacker in Melee" is singled out here.
Well whatever, in that case things should work like this:

Attacker within one meter, defender aware: Target Point-Blank + Attacker in Melee + Defender in Melee = Attack -1, Defense -3

Attacker within two meters, defender aware: Attacker in Melee + Defender in Melee = Attack -3, Defense -3

Attacker within one meter, defender unaware: Target Point-Blank + Defender unaware = Attack +2, no Defense

So if someone brings a knife to a firefight he should stay out of point-blank range while his enemy will want to get all close and personal with the gun once he gets close.

Sure it can mean that, see the "sane GM" part — no shooting bonus for being close in melee, and most certainly not if the attacker is within one meter of you.
In fact, I run with the house rule that melee defense is used instead of ranged and melee modifiers apply as well.

And if you don't — well, get used to people throwing melee weapons in melee.

Because it is likely, but not certain, that both will apply in a combat.



I don't think the Defender in Melee applies to the target. So, if you are shooting at someone you are in melee with, there is only the -3 Attack penalty, but NOT the -3 Defense penalty.

That one only applies if you shoot someone engaged "in melee combat with another opponent".

Attacker within one meter, defender aware: Target Point-Blank + Attacker in Melee = Attack -1
Attacker within two meters, defender aware: Attacker in Melee = Attack -3
Attacker within one meter, defender unaware: Target Point-Blank + Defender unaware = Attack +2, no Defense

Bye
Thanee

Seems like a good time to throw this into the mix - some homebrewing:


Shooting in melee

Sometimes when the enemy is upon you, you're better off cracking them with the butt of your rifle! Generally there's a blanket -3 for shooting within melee, but I thought that having lower penalties for smaller, lighter weapons make sense ... that's why you carry a pistol, for shooting the natives when they hit melee range and your rifle's too unwieldy. I also like giving reasons for carrying lighter weaponry - there's no speed rating for them, making it close to pointless (besides conceal) to carry light pistols. This makes it a tactical choice to carry a sidearm.

Penatly for shooting in melee, by weapon type.

- 1 Light pistols

- 2 Heavy Pistols, SMGs

- 3 Assualt Rifles, Long Arms

- 4 Heavy Weapons, Rocket Launchers


Pointblank bonus to shooting does not count when directly engaged in melee with they sap you're trying to shoot.

I like that idea.
I don't like the fact that you can easly wield a Sniperrifle in CQC or even short distance combat.

I disagree. A gun to a head that isn't trying to dodge falls outside the abstracted combat rules. In my game there would be no roll to hit - I would decide as GM what happened based on the firepower of the firearm and the structure of the skull in question, since practically all randomness concerning the ability of the shooter has been removed from the situation.

For example, think about the wide gap in effctiveness between an unskilled non-combat build and an optimised samurai build in regular combat situations. Should the same width of effectiveness be seen in how well they can put a bullet through an immobile and immediate object? I think not. Combat rules are there for combat and execution does not fit that criteria.

There's no implicit linguistic or mechanical reason for 'point blank' not to apply to a mobile target.

This is what I would play, except that the Attacker in Melee modifier might not apply in the second line. The two-metre rule, as I read it, does not apply to the defender ("another character", as per Defender in Melee modifier) so if the attacker were not within the target's melee striking distance and there was nobody else around I wouldn't use it.

It would be a lot easier if the RAW specified what specifically constituted 'in melee' with respect to the modifiers. The closest we get is:

"Whenever two or more characters engage each other in hand-to-hand combat or armed combat that does not involve ranged weapons, the following melee combat rules apply."

... which kinda implies that just by pulling the pistol trigger you're out of melee anyway!

Sure, but there are many modifiers that might apply, e.g. visibility, recoil, attacker running etc. This odd specification confuses me more than omitting it would.



I'm not so sure about this one. The paragraph continues with saying that the modifier applies "regardless of how many characters he is in melee with". It feels weird to me that the attacker may be in melee but the defender might not at the same time. Thus, if we declare both characters to be in close combat with each other, the condition "at least one enemy in melee" is fulfilled and the modifier should apply.
Well, and I have to admit that it just makes more sense to me that dodging a bullet is harder when the gun is right in yo face, sucker!

Damn, this is much more complicated than I expected. Would have been a fine opportunity for a rules example in the book.

I think the rules are pretty clear here. Point-Blank is if the traget is within one meter, period. It should even apply in situations where you can't see the target and use Intuiton instead of Agility.



Oh my, you're right. What a mess...

Now I'm thinking about declaring that melee only happens after one charakter has rolled a close combat attack test. Say, if character A walks up to character B and shoots him in da' fayse he gets +2 for Point-Blank, no other modifers. Now, if character B starts to pummel him in retribution, both count as being in close combat and Attacker in Melee and Defender in Melee apply.

Hmm...guess I have to think about this some more...

Yep, number of melee combatants does not matter, just the fact, that the target is in melee.



They both are in melee, of course. It just doesn't make it harder to dodge for the defender.

The reasoning (for me, anyways) is the following.

When you are engaged in melee, you have to focus more on your opponent(s). Therefore you are distracted against anyone not in melee with you, hence the -3 penalty to defense. But your melee opponent surely is your main focus, therefore the modifier should not apply against that one.

Bye
Thanee

This how I have played it from the beginning. In order for there to be Defender In Melee, there must be a Shooter and a Target who is in melee combat with Melee Dude(s). There could be (and probably will be) other modifiers such as Defending Against Multiple Attack cumulative penalties, etc. so being in Melee and being shot at by ranged opponents is bad for your health.
To me, Point Blank is basically a range "penalty" like Extreme Range, except you are so close that it is a bonus instead of a penalty. This means that when you are within 1 meter and use a ranged attack, you would get the +2 Point Blank mod as a matter of course.

RAW:
Attack: -3
Def: +/- 0


There are some things however I was wondering about:
1. Is it possible to parry?
I mean you do not parry the bullet, you would go for the gun. It would seem reasonable to me.

Not by the book, as you do not defend against a melee attack.

Bye
Thanee

I would say, that if an opponent with a gun tries to shoot in melee, the character may use an interrupt action to perform a full defence in melee. Of course, this is only a house rule, but makes sense to me.

Point blank range modifier, to me, is more to represent that an attacker would have to move the weapon a much greater angle away to miss the target. Doesn`t matter if it`s the head or the body, in that close a range, the barrel of the gun is likely pointed at the target just by being held in the same direction.

I also think the defender in melee should apply regardless of who is in melee with the target, as long as someone is. Maybe an additional dice pool modifier if the target has a reach weapon, but, again, that would be a house rule. By RAW, the defender in melee modifier would apply, to me.

Thats why the Attacker gets -3 Dice because the defender tries to push the Gun out of Aim

With a Dance in Melee
Medicineman

Just there is implicit reason, depending on your interpretation, not to apply it to the guy grabbing your gun and stabbing you.

Which is totally fine.

Surely that should be taken into account with a separate modifier?

Dreadlord has the right idea – this is just a range bonus instead of penalty. If your opponent is trying to block, parry, dodge, disarm, whatever you rule/house-rule you still get a bonus for being in spitting distance.

I meant Point Blank is a range modifier, not Attacker In Melee, which I see as a "situational mod", for what it's worth (splitting hairs, maybe!).

It hasn't come up in my game (yet), but I would apply Point Blank and Attacker in Melee if Shooter were trying to shoot his melee opponent for a net +1. If the melee opponent chose to Full Defense with a Parry or Block by hitting Shooter's arm, I would allow that as well. I see the Attacker in melee as -3 due more to the attacker having to move around while shooting since melee is a fluid environment. You can't easily line up a shot if you are moving around in melee combat.