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Thanee
Kinesics says, that it gives bonus dice for Opposed Tests against assensing emotional state (among others).

However, Assensing is not an Opposed Test.

Any idea how this is supposed to work?

Of course, you could simply roll Kinesics dice and then deduct the hits from any hits scored on the Assensing Test for the purpose (only) of assensing emotional state.

What do you think?

Bye
Thanee
LurkerOutThere
Eh, i don't think Kinesics affects it, aura reading gets your true emotions unless you have something to block it. Kinesics prevents you from giving physical tells to your true emotions.
Thanee
Well, the description of Kinesics does list "... assensing for emotional states, and other magical ... tests."

Bye
Thanee
BishopMcQ
Thanee--I'd suggest using the Kinesics test as the threshold, net hits beyond the threshold yield information about the emotional state of the target.

Edit: Reading ther Astral Perception section on SR4A p. 191, Assensing tests are used for noticing astral forms and assensing them. The test is normally unopposed because the aura is immediately obvious. It becomes an opposed test if the aura is actively trying to hide (such as with Stealth). It would be a GM call for which Skill and Attribute are used in the opposed test, but Kinesics gives a dice pool modifier to such a test.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Thanee @ Dec 5 2010, 01:09 PM) *
Well, the description of Kinesics does list "... assensing for emotional states, and other magical ... tests."

Bye
Thanee


Then i stand corrected. As to the test in question maybe opposed Intuition(or magic) + Kinnesics vs the assensing test?
Glyph
Normally assensing is not an opposed test at all, which makes the kinesics description contradict itself. At best, I would let them roll kinesics, by itself, to knock down the assensing successes, solely for the purpose of sensing emotions. But since the rules contradict themselves, there really isn't a "right" way to do it.
phlapjack77
Maybe the opposed test could be Assensing + Int vs Kinesics + Magic.

Normal assensing hits determine cyberwear or whatever.

Net hits determine the emotional-state stuff.
Glyph
I wouldn't give them anything but kinesics to the dice pool, personally. Normally, they wouldn't be rolling anything at all, so why should kinesics give them a whole other Attribute to add?
Yerameyahu
Agreed: they deserve *something*, but not everything. smile.gif
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 6 2010, 10:26 AM) *
I wouldn't give them anything but kinesics to the dice pool, personally. Normally, they wouldn't be rolling anything at all, so why should kinesics give them a whole other Attribute to add?

Yeah, you're probably right - I was just thinking that a stronger magic should be relevant in any opposed test that uses "magicky" effects, but then again, I guess that's what the Kinesics level is for smile.gif

A max of 3 levels of Kinesics - does that really give any kind of "useful" die pool for the Opposed test? Just thinking out loud...
Yerameyahu
It's not a powerful assensing block, no, but should it be? Does it cost enough to be? It's not terribly powerful against mundane 'reading', and 'masking' your aura this way should be even harder, right?

Plus, now that you have a DP, you can use Edge if it's important. smile.gif
Teryon
How *would* you stop Assensing if you're just an adept, or even a non-mage?
BishopMcQ
Well, from what I have read in the section--if the adept was actively hiding, a Stealth/Infiltration test would be appropriate. If the adept is only trying to control his emotions, then maybe a Composure test.

If you want to keep it easy, then Kinesics applies a Threshold = Rating for gaining emotional information about the adept. When a mage assenses an adept with Rating 3 Kinesics, if the mage has 5 hits, she will get the 5 hits information about everything else, and the 2 hits information about emotions.

Just a thought...
Yerameyahu
That's the simple way, but is it too strong? Effectively 9 DP, and how high is Assensing + Int likely to be? It's too bad there's no easy way to get more granular. DP = Kinesics*2 against Assensing emotions? That feels so arbitrary. smile.gif
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 6 2010, 11:52 AM) *
That's the simple way, but is it too strong? Effectively 9 DP, and how high is Assensing + Int likely to be? It's too bad there's no easy way to get more granular. DP = Kinesics*2 against Assensing emotions? That feels so arbitrary. smile.gif

Thinking about it more, Kinesics already feels way powerful. +1 social die per .5 pp, plus you get non-verbal communication with other Kinesics users. I guess it doesn't need any more large benefits. I'll put another vote behind Thanee's suggestion smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Dec 6 2010, 12:11 AM) *
Thinking about it more, Kinesics already feels way powerful. +1 social die per .5 pp, plus you get non-verbal communication with other Kinesics users. I guess it doesn't need any more large benefits. I'll put another vote behind Thanee's suggestion smile.gif


I'd just note that Kinesics would top out at 3 dice, so you might want to include a stipulation against critical failures (eg. rolling a 1 doesn't make your emotions MORE visible).
Thanee
QUOTE (Teryon @ Dec 6 2010, 04:47 AM) *
How *would* you stop Assensing if you're just an adept, or even a non-mage?


They control their body functions, which reflect upon the aura. After all, emotions and all that are all physical functions of your body, and you can read them in the aura, so the aura must be the reflection of these physical states. You won't control the aura directly, but you are capable of hiding your emotions in general.

All in all, I think there are two options...

1) You get nothing. Kinesics gives a bonus to an Opposed Test where there is none. No test, no bonus.
2) You get to roll Kinesics dice and every hit reduces the net hits scored on the Assensing Test for this purpose (emotional state) only.

@Draco18s: Yeah, those critical glitches with low dps are something a GM generally should not consider too harshly. Same with Rating 3 devices rolling 3 dice only. They surely do not completely malfunction that easily. Or with Dodge, when you have been shot at a few times already; eventually you only roll a single d6.

Bye
Thanee
LurkerOutThere
I'm firmly in the faction that thinks SR mages are entirely too powerful so take this with a good sized grain of salt but given the low ability cost behind assensing (one point in a skill, no real drawbacks to using) i'm comfortable with the opposed test.

Assensing for anyone with astral site is essentially a free power that one-ups somethign that requires implanted radar or E-sensing for other characters(cyberware detection) plus allows one to read emotional states etc etc. Taken in that context I don't find bulking up one of the few things that defends against it (being magic + kinesics)
Karoline
Perhaps level of kinesics could act as an additional threashold for assensing purely for purposes of seeing emotion. That way it doesn't become an opposed roll, but still helps hide emotion like the description says.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 6 2010, 03:31 PM) *
Perhaps level of kinesics could act as an additional threashold for assensing purely for purposes of seeing emotion. That way it doesn't become an opposed roll, but still helps hide emotion like the description says.


I like this idea. That way the masters of the social arts and adeptry actually have a defense against mages, rather than looking like rank amateurs.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 6 2010, 10:31 AM) *
Perhaps level of kinesics could act as an additional threashold for assensing purely for purposes of seeing emotion. That way it doesn't become an opposed roll, but still helps hide emotion like the description says.


Covered that about five posts up. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 5 2010, 10:52 PM) *
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Dec 5 2010, 10:47 PM) *

If you want to keep it easy, then Kinesics applies a Threshold = Rating for gaining emotional information about the adept. When a mage assenses an adept with Rating 3 Kinesics, if the mage has 5 hits, she will get the 5 hits information about everything else, and the 2 hits information about emotions.

That's the simple way, but is it too strong? Effectively 9 DP, and how high is Assensing + Int likely to be? It's too bad there's no easy way to get more granular. DP = Kinesics*2 against Assensing emotions? That feels so arbitrary. smile.gif
Thanee
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Dec 6 2010, 04:24 PM) *
...given the low ability cost behind assensing (one point in a skill, no real drawbacks to using)


Assensing certainly isn't that cheap. You need to have a good skill level and a good Intuition to accomplish more than the basic results.

Granted, emotional state in particular can be very handy sometimes, and it is at the 1 threshold, but detecting cyberware (esp. non-standard) and bioware requires quite a few hits on the test.

Bye
Thanee
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