So Im not quite sure this trick works, but it seems like it should. Reading over the Inhabitation power it never states what type of entity you must be to use the power.

That is to say that it doesn't seem to be restrict the user of the power to any particular plane of existance. An Astral entity, physical entity, or a dual natured entity seems to be able to use the ability with equal effect.

Furthermore, even if it is only useable by entities with an astral presence it is easy enough to begin astrally perceiving in order to become dual natured.

So here is the trick:

1. Make an Ally spirit with the Inhabitation Power.
2. Release the Ally Spirit but keep its Spirit Formula.
3. Take the Spirit Formula and Summon the Spirit.
4. Invoke the spirit to get it the Endowment Power.
   (The Test is Magic + Binding + Spirits Force, We want at least 5 Hits, Spend Edge just to be sure for maximum Exploding 6s)
5. Find yourself a proper vessel. Somebody physically fit with no ware is preferable.
6. Prepare the Vessel. Use Mind Control Magic to make the vessel willing.
   (Enchanting + Magic, Vessel's Willpower, 1 day)
7. Begin using the Inhabitation power. Duration is (Spirit's Force) Days.
   (Opposed Test, Spirit's Force x 2 vs Vessel's Intuition + Willpower, you might be able to add your Binding skill to either dice pool. If so add it to the Vessels and spend edge.)

The final result is one of 3 things. Depending on the way the rolls on the last test went. If the spirit gets 2 net hits you get a True Form merge, if less than 1 net hit was scored for either spirit or vessel you get a Hybrid Form, if the vessel scores 2 net hits you get a Flesh Form. All three are good, though some are better:

1. A True Form Merge. You become a completely astral entity, gaining the Astral Form and Materialization powers. I'm inclined to say that you also gain a Force Attribute equal to your Magic Attribute or use your Magic Attribute in place of Force, others may not agree (as seen below, ).
2. Hybrid Form. You become a dual natured entity permanently with all the bennies and downsides of that status. You gain Immunity to Normal Weapons (Again, Im inclined to give F = M, or use M as F, up to your GM though), and a new body, note that you can interface with ware and tech just fine. Add your physical stats to the vessel's physical stats. Neat.
3. Flesh Form. This is the best outcome. You become a dual natured entity permanently with all the bennies and downsides. You gain Immunity to Normal Weapons (Again, Im inclined to give F = M, or use M as F, up to your GM though), all the memories, abilities, and skills (both Active and Knowledge) of the host and Realistic Form and Aura Masking! Add your Physical stats to the vessel's physical stats. Note that you can interface with ware and tech just fine.

-edit-

Fixed some bits and added some others, accounted for Yerameyahu's position.

It seems like you can either follow the rules to the letter in order to sneakily do things, or you can alter things. You can't do both. If you're giving a non-spirit the ability to inhabit, you have to accept that you don't have a Force attribute at all. That'll be a rough character!

Well, not having a force attribute really isn't that large of an issue at all. It just means that Immunity to Normal Weapons doesn't work for you since your Force = 0. Realistic Form just works and Aura Masking (the equivalent of 2 metamagics I might add) both key off of Intuition + Magic + Initiation.

A Spirits stats are dependent on Force, yours aren't, regardless of whether you are astral or not. This means Background counts, which specifically affect a spirit's force or a magician/adepts magic, dont mean squat to your physical stats. Your Astral Form magician with Materialization can even manifest in background count zones larger than his body and not "die", for example.

I feel like ItNW and the +Force stats are the whole point, though.

Well, actually if you can manage a flesh form, you can potentially gain a few hundred karma worth of skills as well as a similar amount of physical stats. And if this is allowed, there is nothing preventing you doing it multiple times, meaning you could easily use it to reach maximum stats and gain tons and tons of skills. It is also the ultimate means of going under cover or into hiding.

Edit: I do agree with Yera that you don't get to follow the rules to the letter in order to do something like this and then make an exceedingly huge leap in the rules to gain F=Magic.

Really the whole point is adding your physical stats to the vessels, getting a boatload of skills for free, and 3 metamagics for the price of 1. ItNW would be just gravy.

Technically there is a way to get a Force Attribute, and it involves finding a spirit with Energy Drain (Essence), Endowment/Spirit Pact: Power, and using that to get 1.5 Magic = Force. You could easily get 9. Hardened Armor 18? Sure thing.

-edit-

As for doing it multiple times, Id say it depends entirely on which form you get. A true form merge? Yeah, you could pull it off again, a Hybrid for a Flesh Form? No, I dont think it'd work since you would just add your original stats to the new vessel, the skills might carry over though. Its a question of whether the skills are meatlocked into the vessel or come with you, I know the vessels stats should stay with.

For example if you were to astral project with this setup, I dont think you'd be able to bring the bodys physical attribute bonuses with you into the astral, you'd just use your base stats that you had before the inhabitation.

Every time this thread gets posted someone thinks their the first to discover it. It's a long way to go for something few GM's in their right mind would allow based on flavor alone.

I think the flavor could be quite excellent if done correctly. Lets say the magician in question contracts some terrible disease or has some grievous injury that modern science cant fix. This would be a viable solution to his problems no?

Under the Endowment spirit power description in Street Magic, p. 99, it says, "...grants the use of one of its powers to the subject." A Force 6 spirit with Endowment could grant "the use of" one of its powers to a subject. What Force would that be? The power granted is the spirit's power, which is a Force 6 power. The subject gets what the spirit gives the use of: a Force 6 power.

I'm not trying to be dense, but how is that helpful pbangarth? That means that the only factor a spirits force has in the whole trick is how long it takes to do the inhabitation.

It was a reply to the discussion above and elsewhere about what Force the borrowed power would have, when the borrower does not have a Force stat. Some argue use Magic instead, others argue if the borrower has no Force, then neither does the borrowed power. I argue that if the spirit lays its power on you, there is only one possible Force that power could have, that of the spirit that is lending it.

Yes, though in the case of ItnW it gives you rating equal to double your force, as opposed to the force of the power used. I do agree though that any power granted from a spirit should have F equal to the spirit's F, but only when the F of the power itself is important.

Ahh, well in that case, the answer is in one of the FAQs. You do use the spirit's force.

Ah, that would be the following, from the Shadowrun FAQ:
Thanks!

Logically, I'm not sure that this means you Inhabit using their force, though.

Well, you do Inhabit using their force. Thats why I said that the process takes (Spirit's Force) days, if you dont Inhabit using their force (because it as ruled that way by GM or some such) then the process takes 0 days and will pretty much result in a Flesh Form merge (the best one) every time.

Regardless of whether or not you use the spirits force for Inhabitation, the ItNW is given to you. You aren't borrowing it from the Spirit like Inhabitation. So you dont get the benefit of it since your force is 0.

Why not? You have an Endowed Power. Logically it extends that if you are using such a power, any checks you have to make with the power are resolved as though the spirit was using the power. It passes the sniff test IMO.

if by viable you mean making a very powerfullenemy of your former ally spirit in or order to exploit a loophole that in my opinion is to denote that allyspirits and free spirits army the same as others. Sometimes the universe isn't about the pcs backstory.

How exactly in invoking your formal ally spirit going to make it an enemy? You just gave it a huge powerboost. I mean sure, it might have abandonment issues, but other than that, making it an enemy? While I suppose it is a potential outcome, it surely isn't the most likely outcome.

As far as denoting that ally spirits and free spirits arent (I think thats what you meant) the same as others, yeah they arent, but nothing prohibits a normal spirit from having inhabitation. Nothing I've done in the trick makes ally spirits less useful or cool, or free spirits less special.

That's what I'm saying, Ramaloke. The Inhabit power (and the action) itself is borrowed, but that hardly means that every future use of Force (including the inhabitation entity results) is also borrowed.

I never said that was the case. I advocated letting the summoner use his magic as force or gaining a force attribute equal to his magic so that ItNW would work, I never advocated using the spirits force for anything but the original endowment power which is how it actually works.

The resulting inhabitation entity uses the scores from the magician and the vessel in all cases.

… I know. This is called 'agreeing' and it's what I'm doing with you.

Ahh, well then Cheers!

Hard to fault a guy for agreeing with me.

-edit-

Unless you happen to be my Girlfiend, she always seems to be able to fault me. Though I'm pretty sure most of her questions are trick questions anyway.

Heh. Wait till you get married.

"Girlfiend"; typo, or just appropriate?

The answer is yes.

I've had a sort of similar idea, but I'd never try to justify it by RAW.

The idea of a mage who loses their meat body while astrally projecting, and being forced to possess or inhabit some other persons body in order to survive is cool. It's a great story. If I were to allow it in a game, I would make that mage take a metamagic for it. They initiate, take metamagic:possession, and can now project and possess people. Very neat ability. I'd even allow a mage who lost their meat body to initiate and take it if they had the karma for it at the time, i'd also make them burn a point of edge for HoG. But it makes for a great story.

Well if you are going to let a mage buy it as a metamagic then materialization should be on the table too, if only to give parity between possession based traditions and materialization based traditions.

It basically amounts to ascending from being a mage to being a free spirit. I guess materialization would work, but it doesn't seem at all natural for a human spirit to not reside in a human body. The purpose of possession would be to give the mage who lost his meat body, a body.

Well, except that the trick allows you to get materialization if it's what you want. Depending on the sequence of events you can gain Four spirit powers at once through this trick.

You could gain: Astral Form, Aura Masking, Materialization, and Realistic Form.

Those four together actually have amazing synergy. Having no meat body, being able to materialize and look like a normal joe whilst masking your auras and looking normal from an astrally perceiving third party? Sounds pretty good to me. Of course, you do have to pull off the trick twice to do that.

Can a normal spirit even do that? Doesn't sound right.

A normal spirit? Im not sure if any one type can get all four. A free spirit? Yes.

-edit-

This is actually something I've be curious about, the spirit powers in street magic dont list what types of spirits can get them? If the answer is all spirits can get those additional powers, then Yes, any spirit can do that, and it would only have to be a force 6 to do so.

Some Free Spirits (PC and NPC) can do all four, and possibly an Ally Spirit could be constructed to do them all. I don't recall any regular spirit being able to do all of these.

Well, remember, a normal spirit gets materialization and astal form from the get go, a spirit only needs 2 extra powers to pull the "stealth" spirit combo off.

Sounds pretty abusive if a normal (including Free, etc.) can't even do it, I meant. I'm especially leery of the idea that you get Aura Masking, Realistic Form, etc. … and somehow still have the ability to have no body, materialize, etc. Surely the Aura Masking is part and parcel of the Inhabitation, not a separate granted power?

The text is rather clear, it says:



As to the question of whether you lose Realistic Form and Aura masking if you somehow lose your "flesh form" status, it doesn't have any addendum or "if/then" clause.

-edit-

Thats not to say that a Discerning GM could rule that is the case, but I prefer to operate on a RAW standard rather than GM Fiat when we're talking about theoretical optimization.

Ah, I see. Theoretical optimization. So, when you say 'discerning' you mean 'any' GM.

Still, I'm game. In the spirit of charop lawyer munchkinry… surely that sentence refers entirely to the flesh form entity? That entity gains those powers, not the vessel or the spirit, so neither of them can keep them 'later'.

Aura Masking is available to all Free Spirits, whether Matereialization, Possession or Inhabitation (Street Magic p. 106 and Runner's Companon, p. 92). I don't see any regular spirit's list as having Aura Masking. Ally spirits can be given any power "available to spirits the initiate may conjure." (SM p. 104) It would be up to the GM, I gues, but I don't see how that privision would include Free Spirits, so it looks like only Free Spirits get Aura Masking.

EDIT: Ah, I didn't look into Inhabitation closely enough. Flesh form....

In which case you just switch around the order of operations.

Inhabitation into True Form:



Then Inhabitation into Flesh Form. You still have all four powers, but now you have a meat body (with all the benefits and limitations thereof).

Though this introduces another headache in that: If you have Astral Form (that is, you dont have a meat body) how can you also have a meat body? Id say that the True Form into Flesh Form nets you Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Materialization (dropping Astral Form), but by RAW you have all four. Presumably this means that the destruction of your vessel doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of your mage.

Theme-wise, the point of possession and inhabitation is to be stronger and safer using a vessel. It makes sense to gain those 'hiding' and defense powers while merged (for normal spirits; nothing makes sense for a mage ;P ); it just doesn't make sense to get them for free and keep them unconditionally. But, that's not a RAW-weasel argument, just a comment.

The RAW argument is that it's the merged entity only that gets the powers.

--
Ramaoke, yes, if the inhabitation fails (True Form), then you *re*-gain your natural spirit powers of Astral Form and Materialization. … Which you don't have while otherwise Inhabiting. You're right: obviously, you lost Astral Form when you… lost your astral form. Hehe. You also lost Materialization, because you can't do it without an Astral Form anyway. It is possible that the RAW fails to say this, though; another writing 'failure', if so.

--
As a side note, I hope it's clear that I understand (and appreciate, as far as it goes) the idea of RAW reasoning and optimization (ask Neraph). I'm in no way ragging on you personally, or denying the activity itself.

--
On our other (third?) topic: I do like the idea, in theory, of some kind of 'unbodied' mage power/metamagic/tradition, or, more extreme, a sort of 'become a free spirit' apotheosis. You would definitely want to specifically point out that you can't do things that you shouldn't be able to do: you lose Projection while possessing/inhabiting, etc. Gotta block the loopholes. The other fluff concerns would also have to be dealt with (if mages can become spirits, what's that do to the setting? Same as if hackers could become AIs?).

No, I get you, . I just like to see what I can do with a game system so that I understand it better, its part of how I learn a system. I suppose it says something about my personality, but I'll ignore any whispers I get about that .

As far as actually using this in a game? I've discussed it with my GM and at the moment we're talking about maybe building a mage with severely weakened physical stats and some negative qualities (Infirm, Weak Immune System, and others) who'll eventually pull off the inhabitation trick (and since I'd be gaining all the positive and negative qualities of the vessel, adding in some negative social qualities such as Enemy +20BP and Vendetta +5BP) that my character may not be aware of when he makes the "vessel selection".

I really like the idea of somebody doing this to get over their severely weak bodies but getting saddled with that vessel's history and bad reputation. After all, who would know I'm not "Slick Willy the Bodylegger."

--

As far as needing astral form to utilize Materialization, you dont need it. Materialization is an example of a power that can be endowed with a great form spirit, so there is precedent that Astral Form is not necessary.

Some other ideas you could use (or be forced by the GM to use): design a unique spell for (part of) the process, expend expensive reagents, metaplanar quest for the spell/ritual/power/etc., karma cost (along the lines of an ally formula, for your new body), etc. Per normal rules, you should probably have to pay at least the cost of 'buying off' those negative qualities, for one thing. The rules don't care how you get rid of an NQ, they just require you to pay BP*2.

The point of a True Form merge is the Spirit (which previously had inhabitation) gains Materialization and Astral Form. If you are gaining any of the Forms (True, Hybrid, and Flesh) the Inhabitation was a success, if it's a failure, then you get nothing.



Yeah, Im not thinking my GM would let me get stuff for free. Im sure he'll throw me curveballs, after all, it is his job.

*shrug* I characterize a True Form as a failure, and it hardly matters. You end up as a spirit, not an inhabited anything.

There's actually a mage NPC love interest of one of the PC mages in one of my games. I'm contemplating killing her meat body while she's projecting. Having her astral self come to PC that has a love interest in her, and asking him to help her get a body so that she can survive. Obviously this is a ticking clock scenario in which some high power & mysterious magic has to be pulled off.

I know that you're talking about a unique and dramatic example, not the rules, but doesn't a projecting mage simply die if they ('their body') die? Silver cords, that kind of thing? There are precedents, I assume: active foci on the body deactivate on the astral form, maybe? I'm asking, I dunno. Presumably, this will be answered in a forthcoming sourcebook.

IIRC: They get to live on for magic hours (minus what time they'd spent in the astral before their body died).

-edit-

Makes sense. Enough time to cry about it, mwa ha. Damned mages.

You mean enough time to get ahold of an Free Spirit/Possession Spirit and get the Possession power via a Power Pact/Endowment Ability and get a new body.

*mwuhahaha*

It doesn't seem like enough time for that, no. Maybe if they bought the GM pizza.

Would Possession fix the problem anyway, though?