So on tonight's run, there's a low force fire spirit. I'd estimate no more than force 3. More likely than not, it's a 1 or a 2. But the Johnson's a liar, so you never know.

I have 2 dice in conjuring and 5 in spell casting. My only Mana Spell is stunbolt. Which is a more efficient way of handling this spirit?

Go stunbolt.

Your spellcasting is higher than your banishing, and banishing is better for higher force spirits, since you reduce the number of services owed. Typically this ammount is higher on lower force spirits.

There is the tradeoff of the Drain value versus Effect. Stunbolt has a pretty low Drain, but you need a lot of successes to disrupt the spirit in one shot (on the order of 6 or 7 on top of a Force 5 spell). To get those, you need to cast it at a commensurate Force, which gives a Drain Value of around 2 or 3. Possibly Physical.

Banishing has a Drain Value of 2 X the number of hits the spirit gets in its Resistance. A low Force spirit may get none, and tends not to hurt much. A high level spirit can kill you with the Drain. At the same time, a weaker spirit has a low number of hits to counter your hits to send it home. Lower level spirits tend to have more services at the start than higher Force spirits. Whether your opposing spirit's 'tank is full' may be hard to determine. It will, after all, already have used at least one service to come after you.

If you're betting, and want to just get rid of the thing, then lay your money on the Stunbolt. Even if you don't send it home right away, it is less likely to hurt you all that much.

Now, if you want to take that spirit for yourself, even (especially?) if it is one you cannot normally Summon, then you might want to Banish it and then Summon it right after.

Stunbolt, every time.

Banishing is ONLY useful if you plan to steal crazy spirits from other mages.

Depends-is the johnson a mage?

If so you might want to banish as he could counterspell your manabolt. If he isn't (and he does not have another mage in the room), go for the manabolt.

Well, lets think about this.

Stun tracks are 8+Half Will.(Physical is Body), round down.

Stunbolt does Force+Hits in damage, and has a drain code of F/2-1(round down). So a force 5 stunbolt with two hits does 7 damage for 1 drain.
A force 6 stunbolt with 3 hits does 9 damage for 2 drain. This instagibs force 1 and 2 spirits.


Banishing's drain, on the other hand, is equal to twice the spirits hits on the resistance test. A mere force 1 spirit has the potential to cause you two drain, and it only goes up from there, and potentially skyrockets if the spirit is Bound, not Summoned. Lets not forget that if you're Banishing a high force spirit, who's Force happens to be greater than your Magic, you're going to be taking Physical drain. And a bound force 7 spirit(assuming magic 7 mage) rolls 14 dice to resist, each hit giving you two drain.

Oh yeah. Spirits typically don't have Counterspelling, either, unless they're one of the fancy street magic ones. Free spirits almost certaintly do, but they're -much- more dangerous, and have Banishing Resistance anyway.

Yeaaaah.

Banishing is terrible. Never use it if you can avoid it. Multicast stunbolts if you need to(+1 drain each spell), but absolutely refrain from banishing unless you need to Grand Theft Spirit.

no mage is obligated to even have stunbolt or any combat spells, neither by RAW nor by Fluff
plus, some spirits which have Counterspelling get pretty hard to stunbolt. a F6 Guardian Spirit with 12 dice against magic, will be very resistent

No player is required to have any weapons or skills with weapons either.

"I'm the Street Samurai of Peace!"

Can anyone point me to where, in RAW, it talks about what happens when you "stun" a spirit?

If you are good enough you wouldn't need them.

SR4A, page 298 tells us that "all combat rules apply equally for critters and characters." Spirits are critters.

SR4A page 162 under Applying Damage tells us that there are two damage tracks in the Condition Monitor, one for Physical, one for Stun. So a critter such as a spirit has a Stun damage track. Follow the rules there for applying damage.

SM page 94 under Disruption tells us that a spirit that suffers Stun damage enough to fill its damage track is disrupted.

An excellent summary. Thank you. I was missing the third entry entirely

Until you're given a job that specifically calls for violence.

Unless the most practical plan calls for violence.

In response to the OP's question, it has been my experience that Banishing is basically the *worst possible way* to get rid of a spirit. A bound force 3 spirit would roll 3-9 dice (depending on the summoner's Magic if it were) against banishing but only 3 to resist a stun bolt.

Plus The Drain for Stunbolt is (F/2)-1, where as the drain for a Banishing test is 2x Spirit's Hits. So a Force 9 Stunbolt is a fixed 4 drain but a Banishing test could be between 2 and 18 with an expected average of 6 (based on 9 dice). Also with the Force 9 Stunbolt you only need 2 net hits to disrupt it but you need an unspecified number of net hits to overcome the number of remaining services.

Just my 3.14159265¢

Stunbolt has fixed(low) drain, banishing has basically random drain. Damage tracks are predictable and don't get very huge unless the spirit is very very powerful, number of services is fairly random and get arbitrary high easily.

Stunbolt is just more reliable.

i use drain force on all enemy spirits on our runs.. you have to kinda join our toxic mage group in order to obtain that kind of power..

Patty, hasnt it been agree'd upon that YOUR game, and the standard game dont play the same RAI? I'd suggest leaving your house rules our of any possible discussions...

Neither are they obligated to have the banishing skill and from what i have seen that's lot rarer think for mage PC:s to have.


3, you round down(see page p:203 of SR4A or 195 of vanilla core book)

When you stunbolt or otherwise attack a spirit, its natural inclination would (I assume) be to fight back. But when you banish a spirit, all your doing is reducing the services it owes to its current master. Would a spirit be inclined to think of this as a bad thing? It almost seems like something the spirit would like. If a mage doesn't give a spirit specific instructions to attack anyone who tried to banish it would the spirit happily stand there and allow the shadowrunner mage to do his thing, hoping that he'll go free as a result?

That's actually a really interesting take on things. I would personally have it depend on how well the summoner treated the spirit/treated previous spirits.

For example, the fire spirit summoned by a Hermetic, being viewed as a basically non-sentient tool to be used and exploited, would most likely allow someone to banish it. The Loa bound to the completely subserviant Houngan, on the other hand, might be enjoying his pet a bit too much to want to be parted from him just yet.



~R~

I like this idea, never thought of it that way.

It's an interesting line of thinking, but remember that the roll opposing you is the spirit's Force, not the spirit's current boss's power.

Keep it civil, please. Don't try to move him out of any discussion because his houserules are different from RAI or RAW.

Its also worth noting that Banishing helps with Attacks of Will.

After all, you roll willpower + banishing for it.

That doesn't necessarily mean its GOOD, but for a mage with decent willpower, there is one upside: No drain.

THough being in melee of a spirit is a notable downside.

Yeah, but on the astral, there's only melee.

Which skill would you rather have? Banishing or Astral Combat?


Well. Or stunbolt.