If I am rolling up a 400 bp character using standard rules, how many points should I put into contacts?

I see the following character types:

• The face
• The rounded character, with a few social skills, and decent problem resolution skills
• The mainly combat character

If I was creating this as a missions character would your advice change?

Thanks

As a rule of thumb I make a character with at least 3 contacts.
One being a Street Doc with HIGH Loyalty (because you don't want you doc selling you to the Ghouls while you are sedated).
A fixer with contacts in the shadows and can get you work.
A black market dealer of the kind of gear you need most.

These three are the most important, IMHO. Of course, other kinds of contacts are always useful and if you can adjust your background to explain the contacts, all the merrier.

So have I got the sums correct, I am struggling with finding the connection ratings for these people?

Street doc. Connection 3, Loyalty 4 => cost 7
Street level Fixer. Connection 3, Loyalty 3 => cost 6
Black market dealer. Connection 4, Loyalty 1 => cost 4

I think I usually spend 20 something points, something like:

5c/4l Fixer
3c/5l Street Doc
2c/3l Bartender

I spent 0 on my current character, I took the made man quality instead. It was that ideal that got the whole character rolling.

The Made Man quality is one of the most cost effective 10 points you can ever spend on a quality. you get a L4 C8 group contact that will fence goods for you. Additionally, depending on what group you take, can provide additional auxillary benefits based on the organization's specialties. A smuggling group contact will be able to provide help sneaking forbidden weapons to various locations, have additional contacts with various blackmarket groups that they smuggle for, etc. The small drawback is the time you have to commit to the group. so for 10 BPs, you get 12 BPs of contacts. With the 2 free ones, you get 10k and buy a sleep regulator.

It depends. For some characters, Loyalty 3, 4, and 5 simply out of character (Fauxknight's example). Everyone should probably have a couple 1-2s as the minimum, though.

This is in my campaign
I love contacts. Actually I think its one of the most amazing game mechanics. Specially one like Shadowrun. The problem is, even in this case i find myself often dropping contacts as a "dump stat" (as is, where you try to skim over the scarce BP or Karma). I found my players did the same, so i implemented a rule where players get to choose their charisma x2 in free contacts.

But, if you ask me as a GM, I'd say: More contacts is always better, flesh them out, give them names, etc. As a GM I'd recommend some 15 to 20 points, in lots of lower end contacts: beat cop, ganger, shark lawyer, club habitué, etc (connections 1 or 2 and loyalty 1 or 2 as well), one or two better connected contacts (fixer connections 3 or 4 and loyalty 2 or 3, and one to provide you the specialized gear you'd most likely use: connections 3 or 4 and loyalty 2 or 3).

I do limit the starting connections to 4, and higher connections contacts are scarce. As scarce as beta cyberware, those with connections 5, and connections 6 are as scarce as delta cyberware.

These limits are subject to variation depending on qualities, for example.

The connection-rating for any contact can be the players choosing, with the usual caveat for GM approval. There's certainly a chance that the bum on the street has a few friends in high places, and that politician isn't really liked by anyone. In other words, make the connection rating anything you feel is appropriate for the contact, and your BP budget.

Now I want Emperor Norton as a contact.

We used 3 X Cha in our game, mostly cause I use contacts ALOT... I LOVE THEM. I've been lucky so far that this hasn't really been abuse yet. One time a player start up Elf face with Charisma 8 they simply took LOTS of smaller contacts that could help out in a lot of different situations.

But it was funny once in a game of mostly new players no one took a single contacts starting out! It lead to some serious rewriting of character after the finish practice session.

depends on the GM and his style.

my players usualy vary from the blinder-troll-gunner with ZERO contacts to the face with 5 or 6 and almost all above 3/3 or variations of those.
after the first session the player playing the face discovered that i instil life in ALL NPCs i put in the game, even random encounters. he managed to chat up some random chicks in the bar and got their number (quick fker too. good seduce rolls and all. but he was on his way to meet the johnson and stopped to make friends . after their mission while everyone else was off browsing the gear section trying to buy everything and the kitchen sink he gave the chicks a call, took them for a night out and decided to shell out 3000 nuyuen for a weekend getaway in some spa resort for the 3 of them.
after bit of fast forwarding and several rolls of his seduce dice he ended up with 2 contacts who i wasnt prepared to go that far so had to roll on a random table to get what they were into
one was a corp clerk and the other ended up a barmaid in a fancy bar across town.
i gave him loyalty 1 on each contact since they just met regardless of how much it cost for the weekend spa but the connection rolls turned up 3 for the clerk and 5 for the bartender but i thought that was a bit high so dropped her to 4 so he was stoked to make new contacts just like that.

i think he said he plans more befriending and is going to try bump thta loyalty right up there.

so in my game if you have the skill both ingame and are willing to talk alot more than roll you can make friends with just about anybody. I refuse to belive that even NPC guards that my combat troll only sees as frag count are so mono-dimentional and should be just killed to get the mission done. People have history and family, lifes, hobbies and i try the best i can to make my players see that every time they encounter NPCs. still and uphill battle with most of the players i see but its growing on them.

so if your GM is less talkative you may need to start with preety high up contacts just for the mechanics of the game to swing in your favour.

I know GMs who don't like their SCs to just always call connections and let them do some work. On the other hand, you're pretty much fucked without at least a Fixer + X (Doc for Sam, Smuggler for Rigger, Tallislegger for Mage etc). A Face should know a lot. Everybody. From a Loy1/con2 Securityguard at the Airport to the Loy5/con3 secretary of Brackhaven...

On the one hand I like that there are some rules about starting with influential friends and associates. But it's the low end I find tricky; at what point should you stop?

* If I have a favorite bar, do I really take that friendly bartender as a (2/2) contact? Oops, another 4BP down the drain.
* The boss of the local gang I pay protection money to. Do I buy him as a 3/1 contact? That's another 4BP.
* My mom. Sure, she doesn't have much influence, but she's family. Is that another 1/6 contact?

I think the contacts system works a bit better for the higher-level contacts than the low-end contacts that every baseline socially well-adjusted character should have.

down the drain? i wonder what amount of gear 4BP will buy you to solve your legwork problems. and give your mother some credit. unless whe has been living under a rock she would know people. women have naturaly higher connection ratings than men. pure gossip can lead to leads in ways you never knew possible. people have friends who know people so give her at least 3 she is older than you so he had a head start in making friends

as for adding contacts for fluff NPCs well that depends if you intend to use them. Like i know people who are into drug dealing and car theft but i dont necessarily WANT to ever talk to them not about their business anyway. so if you character has no intentions of ever needing those people leave them as fluff. if they play significant part in your life then yea add them as contacts. contacts are never wasted BP if you pick them right.

If you give people more credit they also cost more BP, obviously.

A bartender who recognizes you as a regular isn't necessarily a contact. A contact is someone who you can actually call/text/email, and might even answer. Without spending any BP, you can certainly belly on up to any bar and try to chat-up the bartender, who may or may not care to listen to you. As a GM, doing legwork when using a non-contact just needs a bit better etiquette roll, or maybe some sort of quid-pro-quo. (AKA, the bartender says something about having 'kids to feed').

There's some level of trust that's been pre-built with a real contact, and obviously, just asking around 'If there's been any Mafia members in here lately?' isn't going to get you a good result, unless you have a stellar charisma roll.

I generally go for a lot, just for flavor purposes. I really find it fleshes out the character to have well described contacts. For the razorgirl I'm cooking up I have a good 28 BP spread over six contacts. But more importantly, I've got a single-spaced page and a half devoted to detailing these contacts as characters in their own right, with fairly complex relationships with the PC. There's the gearhead prodigy chick she's friends with, who also knows a lot about Renraku as her parents were Arcology survivors. There's Jaime the barkeeper in Carbanado, who helps her out largely because he enjoys vicariously hearing about all this shadow stuff going on and because she comes in every time for the big futbol matches. There's the streetdoc who's treated her since she was a little girl, and thus has a soft spot for her. There's the Sinsearach vegetable seller at the Farmer's Market that occasionally knows something useful, and is willing to do some asking around for her best customer. And then there's a detective in KE's sex crimes unit, who's former LS, and has worked the PC's old gillette gang before to nab offenders who flee into Puyallup, but still doesn't trust the PC and it's mutual.

Doesn't that already tell you something about the character? As a GM, wouldn't you love to have that all to work with?

I always played that the Connection rating for a contact, does not reflect the end-all be-all of their ability to get stuff, or find information. It's a representation of how much work they'll put into helping you.

This is actually a very important thing to remember. It is quite possible to have a very powerful contact with a low Connection rating, since though he might like you or be friends with you he is not going to risk much to help you. With a high loyalty rating he'll almost always come through for the small stuff though, but maybe is not willing to risk his job/status/etc for anyone.

I figure that's Loyalty, like, that's the whole point of having Loyalty.

Loyalty is how friendly you are with them, effects how likely they are to help you with less requirement on your part, how likely they are to back stab you, etc. Has no effect on how much they can/will do for you.

You could limit their 'effective' Connection to their Loyalty, but the rules are really already taking that into account.

You missed reading all the post in that little chain. It boils down to you can take a powerful contact with a low Connection, with the reason being things like they are only willing to risk so much for anyone or that though they like you, their still a d**k.

I think he was referring more to the roleplay aspect of it.
Suppose a character says he knows a an Ares Corp exec. Its a pretty standard contact, albeit a powerful one. Suppose the character says that this guys is connecitons 1 and loyalty 6... but he explains teh low connecitons with the fact that, even though, yes this guys is willing to cut his neck for the character, he will not pull any strings in the corp to do it. Maybe he is bound insome honor or honesty thing that he won't break... or maybe he knows he's being watched, and if he pulls those strings or sells that nifty new gun his head will roll, along with a few others (not necessarily literally).

Thus, you have a powerful contact with a high loyalty and low-connections.

Now, is this a perfect explanation, probably not.
Can you still find exceptions. Yes.

Is it good enough that its fairly believeable for in-game purposes, plot hooks and character background?
I'd say: Hell, yes.

Or rather don't limit it mechanics-wise, but rather fluff-wise

Thanks Inncubi, that is exactly one of the examples of what I was talking about.

Thanks Inncubi, that is exactly one of the examples of what I was talking about.

Okay, well...that's not at all how I've been interpreting it. I've been figuring that Connection is their total ability to get stuff done, whether or not they're using it fully on you. If they don't care about you enough to pull all the strings for you they shouldn't be Loyalty 6.

Exactly. If they're your Friend for Life, but only for Connection 1 purposes… that's just a nonsensical situation. Loyalty is what they'll do for you, Connection is what they can do in general.

Well I started this thread with a question about how many points to spend. Prior to this I have begrudged every point I have had to waste on contacts because the GM insists we have some. I am now much more impressed with the contact system, having had feedback about how people use it, and will certainly not be grumpy about the points, and probably spend quite a few (15..30 looks like a good number depending on how social you feel the character is) on them.

If you have a copy of Runner Companion, you might want to have a look at group contacts and virtual contacts.

In some cases having a whole group of people as a contact really makes sense.

-CJ

to me, Loyalty is their willingness to tell you the truth, to back you up, to not backstab you. The interpersonal relationship you have with them.

Connection is how far they will go to get you gear/information/etc.

And the GM has somewhere in his notes, their real connections rating.

That Loyalty 6 connections 1 Ares Exec? He's your best friend since kindergarden. You guys go back, WAY back. He'd hide bodies for you. But no way in hell he's going to give you Top Secret Ares information. And maybe he doesn't want you to know that although he's officially an Ares Exec in Human Resources, hes' actually a Johnson. Not at Connections 1.

I agree, from a mechanics point of view you are right.
From a RAW point of view, you are right.
From a RAI point of view, you are still right.
Actually, I deffinitely agree with you.

I only differ in the flexibility of the system and in ways to explain the numbers so they make sense to the player's idea of the character and his backstory, to the contact as a character and that they satisfy the numbers in the rules.

Back to the Ares exec contact, with a loyalty 6 and connections 1, I'd allow him in my campaign, because he makes sense. He is consistent with my Gm'ing and my tastes.

Now, about a contact being a high loyalty and low connections, I'll explain something form my real life point of view. I have friends for whom I'd go a great extent. I'd back 'em up in a fight, risking my well being, without second thoughts. For them, I'd tell them to "fuck off!", though, if I was asked to do something that I consider immoral even if it is a /lot/ less demanding than taking punches to the face repeatedly. I certainly wouldn't violate my client/lawyer privacy and secret thing. Hell, I think that is so sacred I probably wouldn't do it even when prompted by a judge.

Translated to shadowrun: I am a lawyer contact of Joe Runner. I know he does illegal things -for flavour's sake, let's assume I am still friends with him. I wouldn't be friends with a runner, being the scum they are, but let's not go there now.-, but he knows I wouldn't help him doing any of that despicable shadowrunning he's so intent on pursuing. Actually, being such a good friend I always try to talk him out of it... but if/when he comes in bleeding to my apartment, I pop out my medkit and patch him up. I'd even call in sick to my megacorp bosses in order to take care of him a few days. I would still nag him for his bad habit of shooting people and stealing data... but I'd still help him.

Now, being this my personal experience, it simply makes it easier fro me to buy the the explanation I just gave; however, its a good example -which does not make a rule, certainly- that illustrates how connections can be more complex, and can enrich the game further without hurting the mechanics of it.

P.S: I just reread my post before. My grammar and english there sucked even more than they usually do.
Apologies.

I think you're right that it's oversimplifying to reduce a relationship to a single number called Loyalty. It's an unfortunate necessity.

The thing is, though, that Connection doesn't really apply to that problem. Connection runs from 'almost no influence' to 'global network/key leadership position'. It doesn't apply to whether he'll give you Ares secrets, or do things that are personally immoral.

I maintain that a contact who won't do immoral things or betray Ares for you isn't a Loyalty 6, and maybe not even a 5. Connection is a measure of what/who they *can* betray, not will.

Connection is 'can', Loyalty is 'will'. The GM is fully free to muddy the waters with realistic details like the ones you suggest.

Now, if Mr. Contact literally is an Ares exec (Connection 6), but you *know* him as Mr. Johnson (Connection 3), then your contact is Connection 3. We are all different people to other people, and it's even more concretely true in 2070.

Again, I think we basically agree to the general point. We differ on how we "muddy the waters", as you put it.

Let's just agree to disagree.

However Yera, how would you stat a contact that is willing to help the character a lot, even risk his well-being, but wouldn't do a single illegal thing for him?

Just curious.

see that doesn't make sense

If Ares Exect Connection 6
Is also Mr Johnson - should he not ALSO have connection 6?
If after all his connection is a measure of his actual pull, and not a measure of the amount of pull he's willing to use for you.

It's just that the game mechanics are designed for that can/will setup. Loyalty is used in dice rolls to negotiate with your contacts, while Connection is used in dice rolls for them to do things (exert influence). (They're also used for other things: networking, fencing, favors, etc.) If you use Connection as Loyalty and Loyalty as Connection, the rolls will be all wrong. I guess it's a minor concern, but it's like deciding to use Reaction for Agility.

sabs, it's just a suggestion to address the (weird) situation posed. Personally, I wouldn't use it. It's not in the rules, anyway.

Inncubi, the rules don't support that. Either he'll risk X or he won't. The GM is free to work out that kind of restriction with the player, but there's no stat for it.

I see your point. So in the case of the Ares Exec you'd say:

He is a loyalty 6/Connections 6, but since the player described him as "tight ass moralist", he will use connections for some things only (legal or correct in his way fo seeing what is right) , but not for others (Illegal? Shadowrunning? Selling organs?)... Am I right?

Sure, but barring the introduction of Advanced Contacts rules, you don't get anything for that restriction. It's just roleplaying, which is obviously important.

I fully agree that the contacts could be significantly more detailed, and that real life is, but in SR4 we just get 2 numbers: how much they'll risk, and how powerful/connected they are. Because there are mechanics that rely on these numbers, I don't suggest fiddling too much with them.

I am not aware of advanced contacts.

And yes, its just roleplaying.

That's what I mean: 'until they write and publish the contacts analog to Advanced Lifestyle rules'.

The closest we have to "advanced contacts" is group contact rules. Though those only make your contacts likely to be less unique.

And more powerful. :/ Still: if your players want hard numbers to reflect more nuanced contacts, I'm sure the rules could be invented.

This is how I would do it as well, and I think you're absolutely right that we have to keep in mind that two numbers to describe a (meta)human relationship is a huge degree of abstraction. Anything you do with numbers is absolutely going to be; I think that's unavoidable. It's really got to be paired with a decent description of whatever their relationship is actually like. But the numbers are there to give a cost-account of how useful the contact is going to be, for BP purposes. And a Connection 6 contact that only acts as Connection 3, you should only be paying for and writing down Connection 3, because that's how many BPs worth of value you're actually getting from his connections.

In the case of Inncubi's example, I'd argue that asking a player to pay 12 BP for a C6L6 contact that doesn't actually come through at that level isn't fair, and if they're not paying that much then why have the high numbers in the first place?