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TheMadderHatter
So I'm setting up an SR4 campaign, and one of the characters wants to play the younger sister of another, who is in high school. Elementary school younger, to be precise, and an early-blooming technomancer to boot (with sprite imaginary friends); they certainly have the roleplaying ability to distinguish between immaturity and random Chaotic Stupid tantrum throwing, so I'd like to see it happen, but I'd like to have some sort of rules-based representation of her unusual age. Is there any quality or metatype out there designed to make a younger-than-average character?
Draco18s
I know that my group ran an "all kids" game, but not having been involved I don't know if they did anything special.
Ramaloke
Check out the Neoteny negative quality in runners companion. Usually given to a character with a genetic disability that keeps them from growing to adult size. Basically it changes their physical boxes from a base of 8 to a base of 6.
Whipstitch
Yeah, Neoteny covers the basics pretty well, I think, since it also suggests adjusting social dice depending on the situation but doesn't give hard numbers. That last bit might annoy some GMs, but keeping the social situation modifiers flexible rather than fixed hits me as important in this case since I could easily see how being a young kid could help with some Con and Etiquette checks while often being a detriment to Intimidate and Leadership or in situations where Street Cred is valuable. Another thing to keep in mind is composure tests, since I would suspect that even a young kid from a rough neighborhood probably hasn't seen as much drek hit the fan as your average starting runner likely has.
jaellot
My wife played a young kid for her 1st character, and it was in 3rd ed. For that I set a limit on the physical attributes primarily, but let the mentals have their max. I think I also may have put a cap on skills, to represent the lack of learning and experience.

I only had the corebook when we started, so we had to wing it, but it worked amziingly well. Another thing was the obvious social ... hurdles of a middle schooler running around.

Also, it was sort of Shadowrun Lite, obviously on the wrong side of having a SIN number, but not really doing the usual "shoot people in the face for money" schtick.
Seth
I am running an all kids game for my kids in Denver. I just restrict the maximum stats to 5 (big difference) over the next couple of (real life) years I will give the children free stats to represent the adult growth spurt of puberty. The game is deadly enough already that I don't feel the need for neotony although I considered it strongly.

CanRay
Isn't Shadowtalker "alt/dev" is a kid. Has to balance going to school with her hacking, IIRC.
Karoline
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 18 2010, 10:28 AM) *
Isn't Shadowtalker "alt/dev" is a kid. Has to balance going to school with her hacking, IIRC.

Well, school doesn't automatically mean kid. Could easily be up to 25ish and be talking about grad school. Of course if you're going off of more than just school, could well be.
Finis
I forget which book, but there's a post in one of the recent ones (maybe Ghost Cartels?) where it refers to /dev/grrl being in 10th grade and 'not yet legal' - to which several male Jackpointers made jokes about 'almost'.

If I had to make a guess too, the red headed freckled elf girl featured in one of the Chapter Head shorts (maybe runner's companion? The one about 'Pfft, Hard Copy?!' is "/dev/grrl" 'In Real Life', as it also fits the description about 'pointy ears and freckles' they give for her in Ghost Cartels. ( I think it is Ghost cartels, as it's a data dump of a report she did on South America for her 10th grade history class)

So there is defiantly cannon precedent for it. I'd say depending on the age though (mid-late teens), physical stats might not be as high (though I don't know if I'd go so far as 'capped') and I would look really hard at any skill over 4 to see if there is sufficient back story for it. The big deals are going to be the social modifiers and situation. "Sorry kid, you can't come to the meet. even with the best fake id on the planet - you look 14, they aren't letting you into Dante's." The chapter head short that features (I think) /dev/grrl is another great example - how many Johnson's are going to take your /team/ seriously if their hacker is 14-15?

Don't forget too, that for a good portion of early third edition, Slamm-O! was a minor too.




I'd say go for it, but in my game it would be mostly a roleplaying handicap, and not a point based one.
tagz
Had a player in my group that played a kid. In fact, named "The Kid".

Anyhow, what we did was get him a SIN that listed him as a surge with Neoteny as a existing medical condition. Got him into a lot of places where age was a restriction, but kept him out of places where freaks were restricted.
Karoline
QUOTE (Finis @ Dec 18 2010, 04:56 PM) *
how many Johnson's are going to take your /team/ seriously if their hacker is 14-15?

If the hacker is 14-15? Very seriously. If any other roll is 14-15? Not so seriously.
Whipstitch
Magicians can also likely get away with being a bit young* as well. After all, the fluff seems to indicate that magic is just common enough that most established teams will have it but just rare enough that many runners are willing to live with (and hell, maybe even expect) some weirdness. If given a choice between having a 15 year old kid or a Raven Shaman on the team I know I'd at least take a moment to find out what the kid can do before making a decision.


*Keeping in mind that magical talent usually becomes noticeable around puberty in most cases.
Megu
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Dec 18 2010, 11:36 PM) *
Magicians can also likely get away with being a bit young* as well. After all, the fluff seems to indicate that magic is just common enough that most established teams will have it but just rare enough that many runners are willing to live with (and hell, maybe even expect) some weirdness. If given a choice between having a 15 year old kid or a Raven Shaman on the team I know I'd at least take a moment to find out what the kid can do before making a decision.


*Keeping in mind that magical talent usually becomes noticeable around puberty in most cases.


It's also worth noting that culture can play into this. In traditional Hmong culture, young shamans are seen as the most potent; it's said a shaman's abilities tend to decline with time from their initial becoming-a-shaman sickness (there's a word for it that I'm spacing). So a Johnson in Yunnan would likely take a fifteen year old shaman very seriously. Although this also seems to imply that the Hmong wouldn't have a tradition of initiation for their shamans...
CanRay
"/dev/grrl/" was who I was thinking of. Just got the name wrong.

Gogo Yubari, 17-years old, able to drink you under the table, and gut you like a fish.

And was in Battle Royale at 15, too!

(Actress Chiaki Kuriyama.).

There's also my character, Speeder. She's 13 and already a damn fine hacker. Too bad she can't go into legitimate areas without being picked up by Child Services. frown.gif
Makki
Kick-Ass claims a 10 year old girl can have all combat skills max with the right mentor. you can be a good asset for deception
CanRay
B.B. Hood from Darkstalkers. Cute kid in a red hood and cape, with an Uzi in her picnic basket!

Also, Red Destiny from "The Big O" anime. Of course, she's a Robot, but still, cute kid that WILL KILL YOU TO DEATH!

I'm also willing to bet there's a number of former Child Soldiers IRL that are now mercenaries and such, and probably only in their teens. (There are actually a number of Ex-Child Soldier refugees in Winnipeg. I don't know of any personally, however.). I remember a horror movie that had a grown up African Child Soldier who has quite a bit to say on the matter. (I'll see if I can remember the movie's name.).

Corporate Culture (For Corporate Mr. Johnsons) will probably have them underestimate children (Like the one dealing with /dev/grrl/.), but Street Johnsons (Professional Mr. Johnsons, who are like Specialized Fixers in a way) would certainly know better. Unprofessional Mr. Johnsons (Like the night manager at the Stuffer Shack trying to put some dirt on the Day Manager and get a promotion) is just out of his/her element entirely and will have no idea what the hell.
War 13
How would a Gnome character appear to most people? Can they pass themselves off as a pre-teen early teen child?
Whipstitch
Yes. They have the Neoteny Quality although in the case of metavariants that simply means they have what we would think of as childlike characteristics even at physical maturity.
CanRay
OK, I just had a sick thought...

"You can't bust me for Pedophilia! Her SIN said she was a Gnome! How was I supposed to know she was underage and using a fake ID?"
War 13
My thought was sorta like that but in reverse. I was going to use a female gnome HtH adept to torture my SR group with. Was going to make her a 1st lvl initiate for masking power. A nice recurring character who I can use against them as they have over the course of the game taken child/teen NPC's to lightly. If I really feel like tormenting them I might even up the initiate grade and beef up stat/skills and make her strike from within at a crucial time.
Whipstitch
Hand to hand on a gnome sounds nice 'cuz it has the "What's wrong with this picture?" bonus going for it, but I wouldn't really recommend making it a recurring prime runner's main shtick simply because a character who has to get right up in the runner's faces is apt to either end up killing even sensible players because they're THAT good or end up getting punked themselves tout suite. Such characters generally need a high degree of stealth or evasiveness/durability, to the point that those qualities tend to end up overshadowing their fists. As one off mini-boss types they're great, but if you want her to really stick around I would instead emphasize the gnome's innate strengths and play up the anti-magic theme (they come with arcane arrester standard, after all). Gnomes are as well-suited as it gets to counterbalancing a team's magical firepower, so such a character could be a real pain in the ass even if she only provides backup to other NPCs and gets the hell out of Dodge once the bodies start piling up.
War 13
I was going to first introduce character as someone who is acting as a child who can help them in some way. Maybe as a contact with an "older brother" who is a fixer or useful contact. It will only come out that she is the enemy if they look into her character or get to deep into the trap if they fall into it.
Karoline
QUOTE (War 13 @ Dec 19 2010, 06:23 PM) *
How would a Gnome character appear to most people? Can they pass themselves off as a pre-teen early teen child?

Except that your average gnome is .8 meters tall which is a bit under 3 feet tall which corresponds to about 3 years old. We're talking about toddler, not pre-teen.

Edit: This of course makes their strength bonus all the more ridiculous.
War 13
OK, well that plan needs a change then. Probably just need to make a runner with neoteny or rethink where I want to go with this. I never even thought about how short a Dwarf was, let alone a gnome.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I forgot about that goofy height table and was just thinking of the quality itself. My bad. I don't really run dwarves or gnomes by the RAW, to be honest. I should have known better than to answer, but I just kinda forgot how far off I actually am from the starting point. By the RAW you're dealing with such short metatypes that it doesn't really make much sense to allow Human Looking unless you're talking about some pretty unlikely specimens, so I just don't really run things that way anymore.
Karoline
Dwarfs are 1.2 meters which puts them at about the same height as a 10-11 year old I think, but I think it'd be hard to pass as one due to the bulk that a +2 str is likely to signify.
War 13
Yeah, I was not even thinking of the height listed on the chart, just read the quality and ran from there. Of course, I can always throw the gnome in there for some comedy value as a one shot character. Having a team getting physically beat up by what looks like a three year old would make for some great blackmail material to hold over the team.
Eimi
Closer to 7-8 at 120 cm. And I'm operating off nutritional data and height trends from at least a decade or two ago.

Dwarfs are ridiculously short in SR. Though I doubt anyone would mistake them (or Gnomes) for human children, even with the neoteny quality. I mean, not without some medium level biosculpting, at a minimum. With it? Possibly.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 20 2010, 12:33 AM) *
Dwarfs are 1.2 meters which puts them at about the same height as a 10-11 year old I think, but I think it'd be hard to pass as one due to the bulk that a +2 str is likely to signify.


Yeah, in my games I tend think more in terms of 4 and a half feet tall as a decent starting point and adjust from there. I'd likely expect to see the real strong ones as nearing or passing 5 foot and being built like li'l human pitbulls. Starting dwarves out so short frankly doesn't leave much room for gnomes to be anything but crazy tiny, and I'd personally rather have a wider range than that. Like I said, I probably shouldn't have even said anything on the subject earlier, but brainfarts happen.
War 13
Yeah, I always mentally pictured Dwarves as four and a half feet tall amd almost as wide. That is probably from all the other RPG's that I have played in the past. I was picturing a Gnome as about four feet or so and built on a more human shape. I think in my mind I was picturing a classic fantasy Hobbit/Halfling instead.
SpellBinder
Mind that the 1.2m given for dwarfs is an average. Just as 1.8m is average for humans, there are many examples of those who break this range. Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal was/is 2.16m, for example (taller than your average elf or ork) while Linda Hunt is 1.45m and Jason "wee Man' Acuna is 1.4m (just taller than your average dwarf), and Verne Troyer is 0.81m (eye to eye with your average gnome).

Even the lineup in SR4a, page 72, the dwarf flipping the bird on the far left is more of 1.01m instead of 1.2m. Four and a half feet is only 1.37m, and not that much of a stretch from the average for Shadowrun dwarfs.

And in doing some searching around, I found a site that seems to have some good data for comparisons in height and weight averages for children (to hopefully help some with the OT). Boys aged 2 to 20 and Girls aged 2 to 20 (Google is your friend.)

Added: Okay, I just noticed that the charts are copyrited 2000, so they're 10 years old now. I doubt the data's changed all that much since.
Karoline
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 20 2010, 04:10 AM) *
Added: Okay, I just noticed that the charts are copyrited 2000, so they're 10 years old now. I doubt the data's changed all that much since.

I'm guessing average weight has gone up a fair chunk, but average height is likely to have stayed fairly similar. Maybe go up a few fractions of an inch, but that's about it.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Dec 20 2010, 05:10 AM) *
Wilt Chamberlain and Shaquille O'Neal


I've taken that into account, and the thing is, those guys are quite rare at roughly 20%+ taller than the rest of the population. And given that dwarves start at 1.2 meters setting one at the height of 1.37 meters doesn't qualify as the Shaq of the dwarf world, but it would put them roughly at the LeBron James level and that's still a rarer place to be than I'd like to take things. The only real solutions I see (to my admittedly personal dilemma) would be to just stick the average closer to the way I picture dwarves or to try to reconcile things with the book numbers by deciding that dwarf height distribution is very wide and relatively flat instead of the kind of curve you usually find in nature, which would mean that there'd be a lot more dwarves who are even shorter to balance things out. I guess i just prefer the first option.
Karoline
Or you could reconcile your image of dwarves as being nearly as tall as humans. This is SR, not Middle Earth, not Forgotten Realms, not anything else. Their dwarves are different from what you may be used to, and you perhaps need to simply take that as being one of the many facets of SR.

I mean, does the fact that dwarves are short (as opposed to slightly below average height) really mess with your SR world image that much? I mean look at the front cover of SR4 BBB, does that image of a dwarf really throw you off that much?
Doc Chase
If they were nearly as tall as humans, what would differentiate them from humans at all?

SR still has fantasy races. They're called halfers for a reason, let's go with that. nyahnyah.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Dec 20 2010, 01:58 PM) *
If they were nearly as tall as humans, what would differentiate them from humans at all?

Their love of long beards and strong spirits nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
So, how about those kids that should be in school, dag-nabbit? *Sits on rocking chair, clutching Panther Assault Cannon* Better not be on my damn lawn!
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 19 2010, 11:11 PM) *
Except that your average gnome is .8 meters tall which is a bit under 3 feet tall which corresponds to about 3 years old. We're talking about toddler, not pre-teen.

Edit: This of course makes their strength bonus all the more ridiculous.

I am suddenly reminded of those myostatin-deficient toddlers being more ripped and muscular than some adults.




-k
Whipstitch
QUOTE
I mean, does the fact that dwarves are short (as opposed to slightly below average height) really mess with your SR world image that much? I mean look at the front cover of SR4 BBB, does that image of a dwarf really throw you off that much?


Yes. That cover is closer to where I want gnomes than dwarves. I characterized it as a personal dilemma, so I understand your position, but it does bother me enough to change things.

QUOTE
If they were nearly as tall as humans, what would differentiate them from humans at all?


Broad bodies with barrel chests, short legs, prodigious strength, thermographic vision, resistance to diseases/toxins and lengthened lifespans. Even if you pegged dwarves at around what I use you would still have the biggest males being about as tall as a human woman of below average height, and in a lot of other ways such a dwarf would probably look bigger. Frankly, that makes more sense to me than the current status quo given their ork-like physical prowess, even if they do have enhanced muscle density. I understand that smaller critters are for various reasons quite strong on a pound for pound basis, but in absolute terms mass has some advantages.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Dec 20 2010, 02:45 PM) *
...lengthened lifespans...


Also, lengthened beards.

As to Child PCs, I'd have no problem with it in some campaigns, but in others it just wouldn't be appropriate. I mean, having them run at all is pretty dark (Future Child Services really should be involved) but in a particularly gritty or dark game, I would have issues with it. It's like pretending to have child soldiers in your army in a wargame - yeah, it's just pretend, but it's still pretty despicable.

That said, if you do allow it, they should totally have Child Services as a group contact.
Seth
QUOTE
That said, if you do allow it, they should totally have Child Services as a group contact.

You've read the descriptions of the barrens?

I think kids in Mogadishu don't have Child Services. The thing about a gun is that it is a great equaliser, as is magic, as is skill with computers. None of these require adult muscles, and kids can have awesome hand/key coordination. As soon as it gets into melee, the kid is toast...unless they have a taser.

Playing kids trying to get out the Barrens can be gritty and/or fun.

WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (Seth @ Dec 20 2010, 04:11 PM) *
You've read the descriptions of the barrens?

I think kids in Mogadishu don't have Child Services. The thing about a gun is that it is a great equaliser, as is magic, as is skill with computers. None of these require adult muscles, and kids can have awesome hand/key coordination. As soon as it gets into melee, the kid is toast...unless they have a taser.

Playing kids trying to get out the Barrens can be gritty and/or fun.


That's true. I guess I was thinking less of a kid in the Mog (or the barrens) and more a kid with parents who live in an Arcology and don't realize that little Timmy isn't at his after school program, he's actually raising hell in some corporate node, beating up spiders and the like. Or providing overwatch to the team with his sniper rifle. Or stunbolting somebody senseless.

And I'm sure playing kids trying to get out of the Barrens would be fun. Kinda like Shade's Children (which I now realize I haven't read since the sixth grade - how did I get so old?).
TheMadderHatter
Actually, she isn't a Barrens kid. The character in question is living with her Humanis parents on a High lifestyle in Bellevue, running at night (in theory) with the help of , and in order to emulate out of admiration for, her rather neglectful older brother and his teen angst-driven desire to rebel against parental racism. rotfl.gif

I realize this sounds very un-Shadowrun, but that's just going to make bringing it all down around their ears once the players feel they've gotten it together (they are new) all the more deeply satisfying for us all. They fully accept that this will probably happen, and actually I feel very little need to prod it along beyond letting the runs do what they normally do.

Incidentally, the player for this lass is among the more bloodthirsty I've met, and the pre-game discussions on what to buy are a lot more entertaining if imagined in character: a scrawny-looking high schooler pleading for sanity as his younger sister flips through encyclopedias of automatic weapons and tries to figure out how to cram them all under the hood of his car.
Megu
If Child Services is bad in the Barrens, it's worth noting that there are probably eleven year old street samurai all over West Africa's shadows.
Headshot_Joe
QUOTE (Megu @ Dec 20 2010, 10:55 PM) *
If Child Services is bad in the Barrens, it's worth noting that there are probably eleven year old street samurai all over West Africa's shadows.

And don't forget Karavan, from Feral Cities, where children are taught to carry and use guns almost before they can walk...
War 13
QUOTE (Headshot_Joe @ Dec 20 2010, 11:56 PM) *
And don't forget Karavan, from Feral Cities, where children are taught to carry and use guns almost before they can walk...



The problem here is with using cyberware with a child. Bioware might grow with the child but a child would need to keep changing out most [all?] cyber as their body grows. Some might just stunt growth altogether like bone sheathing.
Headshot_Joe
QUOTE (War 13 @ Dec 21 2010, 02:20 PM) *
The problem here is with using cyberware with a child. Bioware might grow with the child but a child would need to keep changing out most [all?] cyber as their body grows. Some might just stunt growth altogether like bone sheathing.

And what does this have to do with anything in my post? I didn't mention cyberware at all...
War 13
QUOTE (Headshot_Joe @ Dec 21 2010, 02:24 PM) *
And what does this have to do with anything in my post? I didn't mention cyberware at all...


Meant as a sort of add-on to what you were saying about very young children being taught to use guns at a young age. Some of them could become young shadowrunners and I can see them wanting some of the more basic cyber to round them out when/if they could afford it. I was really asking about how cyber would be used in a young runner and what effects it would have on them growing up and in gameplay. I was also meaning to also quote Megu and his 11 year old street sam statement.
CanRay
Honestly, if the kids are getting into Shadowrunning at such a young age, they're probably not expecting to live long enough for it to matter... Just longer than they would with the other options.

Or, at least, a better, if shorter life.
Megu
QUOTE (War 13 @ Dec 21 2010, 05:53 PM) *
Meant as a sort of add-on to what you were saying about very young children being taught to use guns at a young age. Some of them could become young shadowrunners and I can see them wanting some of the more basic cyber to round them out when/if they could afford it. I was really asking about how cyber would be used in a young runner and what effects it would have on them growing up and in gameplay. I was also meaning to also quote Megu and his 11 year old street sam statement.


A lot of the most important ware - implant guns, wired reflexes, cybereyes - might not have this problem. But you make a good point. Would probably not be economical to change out your muscle replacement every time your bones outgrow it.
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