I've finally got round to having a crack at creating a free spirit character and find the attribute rules a little unclear.

Where it says that Force rating is the maximum for base attributes and Edge (though not Magic I believe...?) do the maxing-out rules apply? E.g. If I were to set Force to 3, would I then only be able to increase one base attribute and have to pay 25BP instead of 10 for maxing?

There are a dozen threads to this effect.

To summarise:

There are two views:

1. The force = all other statistics, and free spirits are too powerful
2. The force = natural maximum, and you pay for attributes separately

Which ever way you read the rules both of these can be contradicted...so its an example of poor wording.

I suggest you play the second way: if you play the first you will be so uber that firstly you won't really enjoy the game, and secondly you will piss off your GM.

I am playing a free spirit, and have been for a couple of months. My die pools are much lower than other players, and my stats are terrible, but the utility of being a free spirit more than makes up for it. If you want power, go play an elven voodoo magician with loads of foci, a pain editor and a tricked out cyberarm. If you want fun, you cannot go much better than a free spirit!

You misunderstand me. I'm not curious about those two views (I fall firmly in the second camp).
My question is whether the standard chargen maxing-out attributes rules apply, or whether this does not work for spirits.

For example, a human can spend up to 200 BP on improving his base attributes from 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1 at a cost of 10 BP per point. His natural maximums are 6 for all of the base attributes BUT he may not have more than one of these attributes at 6 and to have one at 6 he pays an extra fee of 15 BP – that is, the final piont in the maxed-out attribute costs 25 instead of 10.

Now, does this apply to free spirit creation?

A Force-3 free spirit PC, for example, would start with base attributes of 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2, so he could only buy a single point in ONE of them and it would cost 25 BP. Unless the standard rules don't apply, which is the nature of my question.

What he said.

Not much to add except: I agree. Force should be maximum natural stats, and yes last point costs the extra BP.

EDIT: which is why nobody plays a force 3 spirit. To be at least a bit "hardened" against damage and ESPECIALLY Background count... Force is the one and only major attribute to boost at the start, i reckon.

So, to have two or more attributes at 4 you need to be Force 5?

Hm, have to look it up...

Yes, seems like it. only one attribute at maximum allowed at chargen.

But i would also say: a Free spirit is exceptionell at many points and also is a bit vaguely defined (within it own the rules), so you can always beg the gm to look over and alter your rules...

I could live with the standard rules applying to free spirits (even though it makes a Force 2 PC spirit technically illegal) but I suspect it would work better as an exception.

WRT GM consent, I actually am the GM in our game so what I'm really doing is deciding which way I should rule when a player asks me!

If you possibly can get max edge and max force. Look at lightning reflexes.

Be aware that the mage will always be better than you at spell casting, and can summon spirits that can kick your ass...so be good at what you do. What you do is have cool spirits powers all the time, and you can teleport.

In my last game we got an emergency phone call from the troll's twin ork girl friends (he has big appetites) who were cut off. I arranged for a ritual spell cast / astral tracking, tracked them down, arrived half way across town (1 hour later) watching them fighting a loosing battle vs 4 elementals. I teleported back to the party mage, coordinated the rescue, cast a spirit zapper and saved their asses. I don't have another character that could have helped. The teleporting / coordinating reinforcements is something that no other character I am aware of could have pulled off.... It doesn't have a point cost but it is seriously cool, and makes up hugely for the weak die pools.

Well, any other character would simply have been given more time by the GM to make a dramatic cross-town vehicle chase. It's like when the plot requires a hacker… *because* you're a hacker.

Our group decided that since the Attributes start the creation process already at the current maximum for all of them, and the start BP or Karma (if you use that mod) for a Free Spirit is so high, we counted the hard max penalty as already having been paid.

Only to your interpretation.

That's just it - if I had my own interpretation this thread wouldn't exist! If the rules are interpreted that standard chargen rules apply then a free spirit PC at Force 2 has all their base attributes at maximum, which goes against standard chargen rules and is therefore a contradiction. So either way standard chargen rules get broken and I am looking for arguments to favour one method over the other.

I was meaning your interpretation of the spirit's Force interaction with their attributes. I personally am still firmly in the camp of "Force = Attributes" for many reasons, but since you've already stated you're not following that interpretation...

I'd like to be a little more constructive with my criticism, but others have beaten me to the good ideas.

Right, right, gotcha. Yes, I have adopted that interpretation. Whilst it is ill-defined the alternative makes much less sense to me - the power gap with other species would be huge.

I don't believe so because you still need skills. Sure, Mr. F6 spirit has 6's in all attributes, but he can't see anything (no perception), can't talk to anyone (no social skills), is crappy in astral combat, and is basically a one-trick pony (spellcasting) - which will eventually drop him from drain.

It is self balancing in that if you want decent skills you are more likely to limit yourself to a lower force spirit.

In any event, pbangarth's group's decision is sound if playing with that interpretation.

Or just get a bit of karma....then what that "I have 6 in every attribute...but I am self-balancing" fly. Oh wait...I spend 35 karma, and now I have 7 in every attribute. And I possess someone with 4 in every attribute and now I have 11 in every physical attribute. Maybe I get 1 in a couple of skills. In addition to which I cast spells, possess, can teleport and have awesome spirit powers...yeah sure.

I keep stressing as do other people that have played them, that the free spirits which buy attributes the same as other characters are fully playable, and by no means wussy. They are not the most powerful character but they have capabilities that other characters do not which make up for the lower die. If you give them as well the ability to have ungodly physical and mental stats then they go from "playable" to "god-mode", at which point I would go from the "they are a little underpowered but fun to play" voice to "they are utterly broken, if you are a half way sensible GM please ban them"

I fail to see how that is any more dangerous than your interpretation taking Shapechange or possessing a troll. And I fail to see why Free Spirit PCs should follow radically different attribute mechanics than every other spirit in the game.

EDIT: Minor note, but your F6 spirit would have to initiate first in order to get a Force of 7. 11-13 more karma required for it.

They already are radically different from other spirits in many aspects. I suspect this was fabricated so in order to create a PC that is different from creatures meant to be challenges to PCs, rather than teammates, and have both powers that could surpass other PC teammates if not checked and balanced somehow, and weaknesses that limit their long-term usefulness.

Whether, from a game balance standpoint, Free Spirits should ever have been made options for PC play is a question to debate. I do know the one I am playing now is a source of pleasure and humour for me and my fellow players. It is a continuing wonder to discover new, unique ways to use her powers and abilities, and we usually have at least one good laugh per game at her inabilities and ignorance of the world.

What he said...and we are both using the force determines natural maximum...not the uber powerful god mode

Double post