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LukeZ
Can a Dual Nature critter with Masking (masked as a non active human) be attacked by an Astrally Projecting Mage with an active Weapon Focus if the Mage failed to pierce the Masking?
Brazilian_Shinobi
First, it depends on how you interpret the mechanics of masking.

For instance, I'm currently playing as a Jaguar Shapeshifter Adept that learned Masking.

It can:
A) pretend its Magic is higher or lower or
B) pretend it is a normal jaguar or
C) pretend it is something else.

The problem is how you understand these 'or', are they 'exclusive or' or not?

In our games, these are 'exclusive or', which means, that if you pretend to be something else, this something else will also be dual natured (like a Magician watching the Astral Plane).
Aku
They say "or", not "and/or" so they should be exclusive.
Yerameyahu
That's not valid logic. smile.gif It's one convention for the use of 'or', but that's all. In that sentence, 'and' would imply a lack of choice, while 'and/or' is typically avoided in publications.
LukeZ
Still I don't understand if a critter successfully masking as a normal human can be attacked by an astrally projecting mage with an active weapon focus...
Yerameyahu
Brazilian_Shinobi's point was that, depending on how you're using the rules, that critter *can't* be Masked as a normal human.

As far as I understand the rules, a Dual-Natured critter can *never* 'not have' an astral form. You can only change it. The Mage will therefore have *something* to attack.
QUOTE (Running Wild p205)
The auras of dual-natured and astrally perceiving creatures are always clearly visible on the astral plane. Masking is able to assist with hiding an astral form. By concentrating, any awakened character or critter with Masking can change the shape of an astral form.
LukeZ
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 27 2010, 05:46 PM) *
Brazilian_Shinobi's point was that, depending on how you're using the rules, that critter *can't* be Masked as a normal human.

As far as I understand the rules, a Dual-Natured critter can *never* 'not have' an astral form. You can only change it. The Mage will therefore have *something* to attack.


Mmm... in the adventure "On the Run" (page 42) it says:
"One is clearly the leader, though she assenses as a mundane without cyberware (she’s actually a magically active vampire, but is masked with the power of a Grade 3 initiate)."

So it would seem possible to mask as a "mundane" (aka "normal human).

The full text of "Running Wild" (page 205) says:

"The auras of dual-natured and astrally perceiving creatures are always clearly visible on the astral plane. Masking is able to assist with hiding an astral form. By concentrating, any awakened character or critter with Masking can change the shape of an astral form. This is often done by sapient critters masquerading as metahumans and metahumans in critter form."

So the creature may seem a mundane metahuman, but remains dual-natured. If it's true it can be attacked by an astral weapon it will be hit...
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (LukeZ @ Dec 27 2010, 01:54 PM) *
Mmm... in the adventure "On the Run" (page 42) it says:
"One is clearly the leader, though she assenses as a mundane without cyberware (she’s actually a magically active vampire, but is masked with the power of a Grade 3 initiate)."

So it would seem possible to mask as a "mundane" (aka "normal human).

Sigh!


One could argue that vampires are still human after all, so, the use of Masking could hide the fact that the creature is Awakened.

Even so, any dual-natured creature will ALWAYS have an Astral Form, even if hinding it.
Apathy
So by that logic, masking to appear mundane on the astral plane is equivalent to an illusion spell in the physical. A mage can cast a full-sensory illusion to make themselves appear to be a part of the scenery. But if a guard happens to shoot in the space he's occupying, the mage still gets hit. Similarly a well-masked initiate mage can appear to be mundane, and the astally-projecting mage or spirit who sees him will generally assume that he's untouchable... but if they actually try to touch him they'll find that they can. Right?
Dahrken
I think so. Also you may be able to assense the true aura through the masking (Assensing + Intuition vs Intuition+Magic+initiation grade)
LukeZ
A related question:
do exist an "armor focus" that let you use its soak against attacks made by an astral "weapon focus"?
pbangarth
The Masking and Extended Masking metamagics and the Aura Masking critter power are both capable of changing the actual aura of a being. The masking effect must be penetrated for it to be negated.

If an astral perceiver is unable to penetrate the masking effect of these powers, then it is unable to distinguish a masked-as-mundane aura from a truly mundane aura.

If a truly mundane aura cannot be attacked, then a successfully masked-as-mundane aura cannot be attacked.

If any of the above premises are false, then masking doesn't mask.

Adarael
They can absolutely be astrally attacked, even if successfully masked. Just because something is disguised doesn't mean it's not actually there. Or, to put it another way, can you shoot me if I'm invisible? Absolutely. Why someone would attack a mundane from Astral space, however, I don't know - it would seem unlikely unless the attacker knows the victim is naturally dual-natured.
Neraph
QUOTE (LukeZ @ Dec 27 2010, 11:25 AM) *
A related question:
do exist an "armor focus" that let you use its soak against attacks made by an astral "weapon focus"?

No there isn't, but in Street Magic (IIRC) there's a Mystic Armor spell that gives you armor against astral attacks.
Seth
Page 98 street magic
QUOTE
Aura Masking
Type: M • Action: Free • Range: Self • Duration: Sustained
Th is power functions as both the initiate powers Masking
(p. 190, SR4) and Extended Masking (p. 60). Th e spirit uses
its Edge in place of initiate grade. Th e spirit can also hide the
use of any of its powers on itself within the masked aura. Only
characters who pierce the masking can see the spirit’s use of
spirit powers on itself. A spirit can always attempt to appear
as another form of astral creature (even if not capable of astral
projection), but masking itself as mundane would be entirely
pointless unless it is joined to a physical body or has the realistic
form power
.


So I think its fair to say that if a spirit can hide itself as a mundane, a dual natured creature can hide as a mundane too. I realise this is a spirit power but it says it functions as masking.
Manunancy
In my opinion masking may hide what the critter is, but can't hide the fact that there is an astral presence rather than a mere aura. At best it might make it somewhat invisible, but as soon as there is an astral contact the ruse will be ruined. And since the digsuised aua is still clinging to the physical form, astral combat will work just fine. Think bumping into someone invisible then wrestling it into a bretzel.

In the above-mentionned example, vampires aren't dual-natured, which means that unless the NPCs uses astral perception or projection, all there is on the astral plane is an aura. And if it looks mundane, even poking around it's position in the astral won't ruin the disguise. But the second she shows up in the astral (percepting or projecting), the charade will be ruined, though masking will still let it pretend to be and human mage rather than a vampire.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 27 2010, 05:44 PM) *
In my opinion masking may hide what the critter is, but can't hide the fact that there is an astral presence rather than a mere aura. At best it might make it somewhat invisible, but as soon as there is an astral contact the ruse will be ruined. And since the digsuised aua is still clinging to the physical form, astral combat will work just fine. Think bumping into someone invisible then wrestling it into a bretzel.

In the above-mentionned example, vampires aren't dual-natured, which means that unless the NPCs uses astral perception or projection, all there is on the astral plane is an aura. And if it looks mundane, even poking around it's position in the astral won't ruin the disguise. But the second she shows up in the astral (percepting or projecting), the charade will be ruined, though masking will still let it pretend to be and human mage rather than a vampire.

This position suggests to me that it is impossible for a dual-natured creature (such as a Free Spirit) to mask itself, at least as mundane. Is that what you are saying?
Apathy
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 27 2010, 12:26 PM) *
The Masking and Extended Masking metamagics and the Aura Masking critter power are both capable of changing the actual aura of a being. The masking effect must be penetrated for it to be negated.

If an astral perceiver is unable to penetrate the masking effect of these powers, then it is unable to distinguish a masked-as-mundane aura from a truly mundane aura.

If a truly mundane aura cannot be attacked, then a successfully masked-as-mundane aura cannot be attacked.

If any of the above premises are false, then masking doesn't mask.

Successful masking might prevent direct targeting with spells, and would usually fool the opposition into not even trying to interact with you, but wouldn't prevent effecting the PC, in the same way that an invisibility spell would prevent you from targeting in the physical with a smartlink, but wouldn't save you if a grenade happened to land nearby.

Nothing in the descriptions or Masking and Extended Masking indicates that those metamagics actually change the underlying nature of your aura - they only change how that aura is percieved. I could change my aura to look like a troll, but I wouldn't be a troll, and if you cast the area effect version of a spell with 'restricted target - trolls' it wouldn't work on me even though my astral form looks like a troll's form.

So, even though I would appear to be an invalid, astrally-intangible target, I could in fact be damaged if an opponent happened to randomly swing their weapon focus through the space I was occupying or cast a manaball in my immediate vicinity.
Manunancy
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 27 2010, 11:47 PM) *
This position suggests to me that it is impossible for a dual-natured creature (such as a Free Spirit) to mask itself, at least as mundane. Is that what you are saying?


The rules are unclear wether it is possible to disguise an astral form as an aura - if I remember right about using masking to hide active focuses, I'd say you can pull it off. But it will work only versus assensing. Any 'touch' astral interaction will show there's something wrong, because the astral form is still there even if it's masked.
Apathy
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Dec 27 2010, 06:15 PM) *
The rules are unclear wether it is possible to disguise an astral form as an aura - if I remember right about using masking to hide active focuses, I'd say you can pull it off. But it will work only versus assensing. Any 'touch' astral interaction will show there's something wrong, because the astral form is still there even if it's masked.

I can see the alternative view on this also, though. Assensing, and astral perception in general, is a multi-sense thing. You could easily narrate that a detailed assensing an object could include the astral equivalents to sight, smell, touch, taste, etc, and that masking would automatically interfere with my perception of any of those [astral] senses.

So this creates a scenario where I could walk up to what looks like the astral form of a mundane (which is actually a masked dual-natured creature), try to kick it only to feel my leg pass harmlessly through the insubstantial form, when in reality I connected with the masked aura and he took some damage.

[edit] The above interpretation could result in more complicated social interactions between astrally-active creatures, as more involved assensings would likely be a breach of etiquette and overly familiar except among close or intimate aquantances. Licking that new power focus to get a better taste for what level it was would still be ok, though.
Adarael
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 27 2010, 09:26 AM) *
The Masking and Extended Masking metamagics and the Aura Masking critter power are both capable of changing the actual aura of a being. The masking effect must be penetrated for it to be negated.

If an astral perceiver is unable to penetrate the masking effect of these powers, then it is unable to distinguish a masked-as-mundane aura from a truly mundane aura.

If a truly mundane aura cannot be attacked, then a successfully masked-as-mundane aura cannot be attacked.

If any of the above premises are false, then masking doesn't mask.


This is not, strictly speaking, true. Masking does not *change* the aura of a being, it merely disguises it. It is explicitly stated to be a disguise and "illusory aura", not a true change in astral signature. Merely masking one's aura does not stop one from being dual natured, merely make it appear to be mundane. Consequently, there is no reason a masked Shifter would not still be vulnerable to astral attack - they would merely appear to be mundane.
pbangarth
Upon further study, I can follow the argument that the aura is not actually changed, merely its astral appearance. So, unless an astral entity familiar with the workings of astral space chose to go around kicking mundane auras in order to see if they are fake, or it 'tripped on an astral crack in the sidewalk' and fell into the pseudo-mundane entity and discovered otherwise, it would likely not try to do anything. Even though it really could.

Apathy brings up an interesting nuance, however. What is the nature of astral perception? It isn't as if there exists a suite of senses as on the material plane. Is there? If astral perception is fooled by masking, then maybe there is no way to 'sense' the reality of the masked entity. Then one would have to attempt some kind of attack that does not rely on sensing... I don't know, maybe a magic spell or something... again on the off chance that this mundane thing is actually an astral entity. I assume sentient astral entities would be familiar with the concept of masking, and some might consider testing mundanes to be worth the effort.

But if that sort of thing is common on the astral plane, then we come back to the old question that comes up in poker with your drinking buddies. What is the point of bluffing if a bluff is always called? What is the point of masking if things are always going to kick at you no matter what?
Adarael
Well, here's the way I look at it... Any mage with masking themself is liable to have thought of this trick. But if you're masked and I'm on astral overwatch, what am I gonna do, attack every person in my facility every time I see them? You can mask to look like anyone else I'd run into, and that's a lot of time I'd have to spend attacking people rather than doing my job of searching the entire area. I'm like the TF2 Pyro: it's my job to make sure people don't get into the base, sure, but if all I do is burn everyone who comes into Room X, then I'm probably not actually patrolling the facility. And on top of that, it doesn't even actually solve the problem, if the facility is big enough: if you mask to look like a mage who's astrally percieving, from Research Division X, what am I gonna do, mortally threaten your life? What if I'm wrong, and you ARE a mage from Research Division X? That's a hanging offense, in many places. Or maybe you mask to look like a fire elemental who's posessing someone, or an ally spirit in a body, or any number of other things that aren't what you are. Each of these complicates matters.

And these are only if I'm defending a closed facility, and I'm worried about someone infiltrating. If we're on the street, I have literally tens of thousands of people around me at all times, and any one of them could me a masked shifter. And eventually maybe I hit a masked shifter. But I don't expect finding a initated shifter magician is statistically MORE likely than punching a free spirit or a drake or a random mage or a guy on deepweed. And then shit gets real: if I kill or maim them, the cops are after me. If not, they're liable to throw down.

It's a bit like trying to pick the pocket of every person to see if they're a spy, or hack everyone's commlink to see if they're an intruder. Eventually, someone will notice, and they're likely to be pissed. From a strictly mechanical standpoint, I would severely penalize anyone taking this tactic on any rolls to notice intruders, because an attack in astral space is a focus of your will, and I feel like it probably is more than just a slap to the back of the head.

Now, if you disagree with the way I see it, I could see how it might be a problem to allow people to attack masked, dual-natured targets. Personally, this has never been a problem for me.
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