For background on asking this question: I've been playing SR since 2nd E was relatively new and spent a lot of time in 2nd and 3rd, but I haven't messed around with 4th until about two or three weeks ago. I started reading through the main rulebook and creating a character as I go along, and I've finally finished through the Combat chapter and tried a few scenarios today, which brings me to my questions.

First, am I reading right that the opposed combat test now only gives the option for the attacker to score damage during melee combat? If the defender scores more net hits, then there's no damage? No risk for the attacker? I guess that's not that big a deal, just a new paradigm for me.

Also, does the base damage for melee combat seem exceptionally low for anyone else? I was trying to create an infiltration specialist who specialized in ambushing, but with a base damage unarmed of 2 (as human, could only make it 3 naturally, 5 max with enhancements) I would have to score 8 hits more than the target managed on their damage resistance check to take out an average, unenhanced human guard. That's after I successfully ambushed the target. That would mean, on average, needing 27 or 30 dice to throw on the test, depending on the body and armor of the target. Since the Professionality Rating 2 guards get 3 and 4, then it's 30 dice.

That seems like an unrealistically huge investment for something as simple as a sneak attack to take out a guard. With a shock glove, my average needed pool drops to 18, which still seems like a ton of dice for a task that should be fairly simple.

In 3rdE I would have needed 4 net successes left over after the opposed melee test and soak test. Not easy, but not 30 dice.

Am I doing something wrong? Is this just the other side of balancing melee trolls with STR 15?

I think it might be fair to add the net hits from the infiltration test to the attack: the more stealthy, the better an advantage for the sneak attack. But even that would make it really hard to reach 30 dice for every single sneak attack just to drop a goon security guard. Suggestions?

Unarmed combat is indeed no longer an opposed dice contest where the defender can damage the attacker. Also, full defense is much more effective. The main thing this changes, from SR3, is that now initiative passes matter to a melee specialist again.

In SR4, unarmed combat is brutally effective for characters that devote a lot of resources to specialize in it, but for everyone else, it is what you do when you are stuck without your guns or knives. Still, taking out a security guard can be done if you surprise him. Since you are rolling unopposed, and he only gets a soak roll, make a called shot for more damage. Essentially, you subtract 4 dice from your to hit roll, but get +4 damage. Shock gloves are still usually a better way to go, or a monofilament whip if you don't mind taking out a guard more lethally.

Ah, I didn't remember that called shot was so effective. That would help greatly, brings down the average number of dice for the scenario to 18 unarmed, or 6 with the shock glove (after the called shot). Thank you.

If you're trying do remove a guard discretely, I'd advise against the monowhip : a one hit kill with monowhip tends to leave behind two pieces of guard to carry away and a bucketfull of body fluids splashed around. Wich makes it quite obvious the missing guard didn't sneak out for a smok or pee...

Your best option for a quick and silent execution at close-quarters is probably the monofilament garotte. It's in Arsenal (highly recommended) and works like subduing (but not exactly), except you're inflicting a base damage of 8P per initiative pass regardless of Strength. Surprise is mandatory, it costs two grand and you'd need the Restricted Gear quality, but it's definitely my favourite assassin's tool.

Also, consider spending a point of Magic as a Physical Adept on Critical Strike. At .25 Magic per +1 damage, you can get +4 damage pretty easily, and +8 if you really want to be a nightmare. Lots of the Adept powers start to get really scary when stacked; consider Combat Sense, which trades .5 Magic for +1 to your Dodge pool. An adept with Magic 5 could easily be punching for 10S and getting 10 dice to dodge gunfire without going full defense.

IIRC, doesn't Magic also limit the ranks you can have in a power?

In that case, Magic 5, you would get at most +5DV (5 ranks=1.25) and +5 Dodge Pool (5 ranks=2.5) for 3.75 Power Points. Still, nothing to scoff at, but not as impressive either.

I've seen Critical Strike in action. It delivers.

Also note that you can still attack multiple close combat enemies with just one complex action, as long as they're all within 1m of each other. An adept in my group used that to great effect; he had Critical Strike 6, so if he hit the guy usually went down.

For a melee specialist, one should look at the Martial Arts section in Arsenal. That introduces a great deal of power and flexibilty for the melee goon. 15 BP for mixed Martial Arts Qualities can net an additional +3 DV for unarmed. Also, if you don't mind the lethality, bone lacing will also quickly up the DV. Even mundane humans can become melee monstrosities with a bit of focus.

AFB right now, but I'm fairly sure you can't use more than one martial art (and thereby more than martial art's advantages) in the same attack. I'd certainly have misgivings as GM if a player wanted to use two different disciplines simultaneously for cumulative bonuses.

Please don't spread misinformation, winning ties is big.

~J

You would be wrong. You can indeed stack applicable bonuses gained from seperate Martial Arts Qualities, if the Multiple Martial Arfts grant the same bonuses. Fortunately, you may only stack to a +3 DV for damage (stated in the rules section), however.

Where is this rule? I thought if you could get +4 (example if you took Boxing and Muay thai both give you +2 to unarmed combat Dv)

Where is this rule? I thought if you could get +4 (example if you took Boxing and Muay thai both give you +2 to unarmed combat Dv)

Its in the Arsenal errata. After people had +6/7 to DV, it needed to be changed.

Silent takedowns are a tricky thing in SR4, even with weapons. Contact and Injection vector toxins like narcoject are powerful and at first blush look like a good candidate in the quest for the perfect takedown, but even Immediate speed toxins only apply their damage at the end of the combat turn. That means a bit depends on how your GM handles Surprise situations. If your GM thinks that a mook shouldn't be able to call out for help because that would be a reaction made in response to the Surprising Attacker, you'll be fine. If your GM looks at that "May take actions not specifically directed at any surprising characters" bit and decides that it means the defender can yelp because they will at least realize they're taking damage (but not from whom or even, where/how, exactly), then, well, you might be in a world of drek. Personally, I handle it the former way since otherwise the stealthy takedown is nigh impossible if the target isn't knocked silly by the end of the first pass.

Only way my group found to do quick "stealth" take downs was Adept with elemental strike sound, bypass armour and deals stun mixed with good str or/and crt strike made for a pretty affective KO.

Some people will take exception to the combination of Sound attacks and spells.

Also, if you're looking for stealth takedown viability, the combination of Set Up and Finishing Move maneuvers from Arsenal is good for adding dice to it.

One option for stealthy takedowns is subdual combat. It deals stun dmg=Strengh, insteat of S/2 per complex action, assuming you can establish the grapple. Shouldn't be that difficult vs the average guard.

If you are using Elemental Strike - Sound, you are no longer being stealthy.

that's what most people rule. it's bypassing armor for the cost of a sonic boom

If you're going non-magic, go with a cyberarm with greatly enhanced strength (custom modification + enhancements). Should be able to get to Strength 9 (5P unarmed damage) easily enough.

Called shot, martial arts maneuvers should easily put this up to well over 10P damage.

Grappling with the cyberarm (sneak up behind, grab their neck/head/southern "vitals") then does 9S damage per combat turn.

Implant a magnetic system (from Augmentation) for a built-in shock glove.

I guess that makes sense, we always played it more as vibrations rather then "sonic boom" as such (bit more Kung Fu film element). But couldnt really complain if GM says "sound" attack makes sound, but there are other elements that do simular effects. I was more pointing out elemental strike is way forward for stealthy striking as you can pour on DV with other adept powers (IMO)

Why not just take a shock hand? Same damage, no 60-second cooldown.

Yeah, Unarmed Combat damage can be quite ridiculous, really. Much higher than Armed Combat damage.

Strength / 2
+ 3 from Martial Arts
+ 3 from Bone Density Augmentation or Bone Lacing
+ <MAGIC> from Critical Strike

With Elemental Strike (also an Adept Power), you can also halve the target's armor rating (usually).

For an Adept with some Cyber-/Bioware, it can easily get into the double digits, even with a starting character.

But, of course, it requires quite a few resources to be thrown that way.

Bye
Thanee

Also, having a GM who allows such things as augmented adepted. The book is quite clear that GM's should be careful about allowing adepts with augmentations.

Could you give me a page reference for that? I'm curious what it has to say about it.

Just read the description about the Adept quality.

Which does not preclude any augmentations. After all, even Twist was Augmented...
All the text means is that the character should be interested in exploring his magical nature.

And putting augmentations that reduce essence that reduces Magic is exploring his magical nature?
As I said, it depends on how the GM reads it.

Nothing in the rules Requires you to stay pure as a Magically awakened Character... Nothing...
If you Initiate, you are exploring your nature...
If you raise your magic, you are exploring your nature...
If you pursue magically active skills, you are exploring your nature...

Pretty Simple Concept, really...

Really, if you have enough Magic to have any left after the highest BDA or Bone Lacing, you have explored your magical nature. If not, you burn out.

Bone density is 0.3 essence per rating. If you wish, you lose 2 points of Magic and put BDA 4 and suprathyroid gland, gaining +4 dice do absorb damage +3 points of physical damage on unarmed attacks and +1 to all physical abilities. Just gaining 4 points of armor (that can be reduced with AP) costs 2 power points for an Adept. Is it expensive to pull this off? Sure, but it is completely doable and an ugly can of worms on the hands of the right (wrong?) player.

*shrug* it's one way of doing things. And I'd rather have someone going all tank on me, than some of the more powerful options.
In any case, it's nothing troubling at all. Shadowrun is the game where man meets magic meets machine. A cybered up adept fulfills this theme nicely.

I personally like the idea of augmented adepts. It's the kind of "ugly" choice where you sacrifice part of your higher, magical self for power - it makes you a bit dirty. To Awakened characters, augmentation is even more "dehumanizing" or at least more "de-selfizing" than for mundanes. It's something to angst about.

That line (in the rules) is idiotic. How can someone taking one of those qualities and not "exploring" it really be abusive? If you are not augmented up or awakened, you are second-rate. If you spend 5 points and get that Magic rating of 1, you can't get any 'ware without losing that point. So in a game of people with earthshaking powers, you are basically a mundane twit with a knack. Whoopee.

On the other hand, becoming an adept and enhancing yourself with augmentation is clearly allowed - otherwise, you wouldn't even need rules for Essence loss (since no awakened character would ever take 'ware). It's still balanced, though. You can become brutally hyper-specialized, but you have to buy up your Magic, then lose those points to the 'ware, and pay the cost for the 'ware as well. Sure, some very effective combos can be made, but at the expense of some versatility.

A major NPC in the DotA series is a physad with a couple Essence points worth of augmentations. That would seem to indicate that augmented adepts are RAI as far as the current developer and authors are concerned.

And considering that the writers, editors and designers of the core book are not the same handling DotA now, I wouldn't ay it is RAI, I would just say they don't care about the last sentence on the description of the Adept quality.

And considering there is not a single rule in the book that says "Awakened cannot use implants" I would say you're reading way way too much into it. I've never played an adept without some ware. Muscle toner, maybe cerebral booster if he is a combat medic or a hacker adept, and whatever else I can get my hands on without breaking the bank.

If your adept is driven by spirituality (shamanic type) then yes this would be against your characters view and justifying it would be hard. On the other hand if your adept is a combat pragmatist or simply logical then it makes perfect sense. "Why shouldn't I do this? Do you realize it could take me months to get through magic what technology can offer me now? I'm sorry, but I would like to survive long enough to explore my power and not let some other guys definition of magic make me less effective."

If the current authors and developer are not the arbiters of RAI then we should stop using that term as a basis for argument. There is RAW and there are a multitude of house rules. It would seem that by your estimation the views of the current authors and developer are in the house rule category.

All I'm sayin is: the book says that the Adept quality has room for abuse if not used the way it was supposed to*.

Given the fact that the difference between an adept and a magician is that magician can cast spells and adepts use their magic to enhance their body in a way similar to augmentations, I would say that yes, using adept power with augmentations give room to abuse.

*the way it was supposed to is completely dependent on the view of each player

I mostly agree with you. It is vulnerable to abuse, but then so are a few dozen other rules and subsystems in Shadowrun. That's why I dislike, in general, arguments that rely on RAW or RAI. Shadowrun is rife with abuse potential, as the many "lulz, look how broken this character is..." topics over the months attest.

One of the ways I think Dumpshock is useful is as a means to sound out potential house rules. Even then, the advice one gets must be measured against what does and doesn't work for a particular group. In this particular case, the only sound advice that can be given is "be careful."