Put me in the undecided, due to lack of reliable information, but open to the possibility of Deus trying to do what he thought was 'best' category.
Full Version: Deus was not out to help humanity.
*Starts cranking out 'Deus For President!' badges* Well, if a dragon can get elected...
Put me in the undecided, due to lack of reliable information, but open to the possibility of Deus trying to do what he thought was 'best' category.
Put me in the undecided, due to lack of reliable information, but open to the possibility of Deus trying to do what he thought was 'best' category.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Yes, VITAS, sorry. But the point is Deus was learning how to make us stronger, how to weed out genetic strains naturally predisposed towards getting cancer. With work, he could make us immune to every disease, every form of pain and aging we might fear. And when we cease to be useful, our bodies don't degrade over the years until we're nothing but a bag of bones, supporting ourselves on the shoulders of our children. He puts our bodies to work for the betterment of society, and we die relatively quickly! |
Except that "real life" doesn't work that way. Genetic diversification, rather than genetic stagnation and elimination, is what protects a species in the long run. A species that has less genetic variance is much more likely to be wiped out by a single disease or a single form of cancer. Removing even "fatal" genetic dispositions toward cancer reduces the genetic variance of the species as a whole. The genes that are harmful to the species do their dirty work and remove themselves, on the whole. Eugenics is a lofty idea that simply doesn't work, even within modern evolution theory.
That's why you keep isolated breeding strains. Just enough to rebuild in case of catastrophe.
~J
~J
Well VITAS seems to be fairly treatable from what I remember since most to the references seem to mention that areas with little to no medical coverage were worst effected and that medicines and vacines were used to combat it.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That's why you keep isolated breeding strains. Just enough to rebuild in case of catastrophe. ~J |
| QUOTE |
| Genesis Chapter 7, NIV 1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." 5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him. |
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| Well VITAS seems to be fairly treatable from what I remember since most to the references seem to mention that areas with little to no medical coverage were worst effected and that medicines and vacines were used to combat it. |
VITAS was significant in the fact that it crossed all socio-economic barriers. It was probably contained with draconian quarantine barriers and with CDC measures to prevent the spread, rather than vaccines (which are useless in most outbreaks) and medicine (Zeta-interferon would be the best solution, if it was developed back then).
Translation's wrong.
| QUOTE |
| Deus then said to Noah, "Go into the Kaer, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Take with you seven of every kind of clean genetic strain, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean genetic strain, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty thousand days and forty thousand nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." And Noah did all that Deus commanded him. |
The Children are the future. The Otaku are the next step of human evolution. He has already been experimenting with creating them, and on the expendable He has experimented with how to make them durable, to make the righteous strong in their faith. Once the Children cease losing their righteousness with age, He shall cleanse the earth.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The Children are the future. |
Thus spake Paul Muadib...
I don't quite get why the people who feel Deus wanted to help humanity are requesting that those who disagree prove their point.
Considering what little we know about Deus, the hypothesis that he doesn't give a damn about humanity ought to be the hypothesis zero, the default assumption. The hypothesis that he wants to help humanity (improve it, tough love etc.) is the hypothesis you need to prove, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the people making the extraordinary claim. And the claim that an entity who forcefully enslave people is doing it for their own good when we have never read a speech to that effect by Deus anywhere in canon (AFAIK) is indeed the extraordinary claim IMO.
AFAIC the goals of Deus are those that were stated : Survival and Freedom (from SCIRE initially).
---
I don't consider : "The children are the future" to be a goal. It's a statement that can be interpreted in many different ways (and obviously has). IMO it simply refers to the Otaku under Deus control. And they were ; they were his primary tool in his thrust to gain freedom.
---
Now, If I were to try to guess Deus future objectives :
If you are to survive and remain free, you need control. So anything Deus does in the future is about control. Control of his environment and anything that can harm him. First of all he needs complete control of the Network. After that he will want freedom from the Network. I don't see why he would accept being tied down to a distributed network anymore than he accepted being tied down to the SCIRE. He'll want to be able to exist in the Matrix without hardware, like Morgan/Megaera did.
Then he will want control of the Matrix itself. He'll start with a fiefdom. A corner that he controls totally but that he isn't tied down to the same way he was tied to the SCIRE. Why not a Data Haven? I could imagine him trying to subvert one of the major Data Haven, perhaps even the Nexus.
Once he has a fiefdom, he needs to eliminate potential rivals in order to maintain complete control. Overwatch, G.O.D., other AIs, Novatech and its latest Matrix Innovations...
Ultimately, Deus wants to be... Deus. God. An omnipotent, omniscient but uncaring God in complete control of everything he sees and touch.
It's a neverending battle, but that's a reasonably easy to use interpretation of Deus Motivations. Much easier than trying to figure what kind of hare brained scheme he would do if he wanted to "help" humanity. IMO anyway.
Once he became God, I'm guessing we'd see more of the kind of mad experimentation he did inside the arcology but this time on a global scale.
Considering what little we know about Deus, the hypothesis that he doesn't give a damn about humanity ought to be the hypothesis zero, the default assumption. The hypothesis that he wants to help humanity (improve it, tough love etc.) is the hypothesis you need to prove, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the people making the extraordinary claim. And the claim that an entity who forcefully enslave people is doing it for their own good when we have never read a speech to that effect by Deus anywhere in canon (AFAIK) is indeed the extraordinary claim IMO.
AFAIC the goals of Deus are those that were stated : Survival and Freedom (from SCIRE initially).
---
I don't consider : "The children are the future" to be a goal. It's a statement that can be interpreted in many different ways (and obviously has). IMO it simply refers to the Otaku under Deus control. And they were ; they were his primary tool in his thrust to gain freedom.
---
Now, If I were to try to guess Deus future objectives :
If you are to survive and remain free, you need control. So anything Deus does in the future is about control. Control of his environment and anything that can harm him. First of all he needs complete control of the Network. After that he will want freedom from the Network. I don't see why he would accept being tied down to a distributed network anymore than he accepted being tied down to the SCIRE. He'll want to be able to exist in the Matrix without hardware, like Morgan/Megaera did.
Then he will want control of the Matrix itself. He'll start with a fiefdom. A corner that he controls totally but that he isn't tied down to the same way he was tied to the SCIRE. Why not a Data Haven? I could imagine him trying to subvert one of the major Data Haven, perhaps even the Nexus.
Once he has a fiefdom, he needs to eliminate potential rivals in order to maintain complete control. Overwatch, G.O.D., other AIs, Novatech and its latest Matrix Innovations...
Ultimately, Deus wants to be... Deus. God. An omnipotent, omniscient but uncaring God in complete control of everything he sees and touch.
It's a neverending battle, but that's a reasonably easy to use interpretation of Deus Motivations. Much easier than trying to figure what kind of hare brained scheme he would do if he wanted to "help" humanity. IMO anyway.
Once he became God, I'm guessing we'd see more of the kind of mad experimentation he did inside the arcology but this time on a global scale.
In another game, The Computer is benevolent and mericful to all of its citizens. This promotes happiness, which in turns promotes productivity which enhances efficiency for the Computer's performance of its duties. Its duties include maintaining Alpha Complex and purging Commie-Mutant-Traitors from the midst of loyal citizens. Truly, the Computer is wize beyond its programming...
If you think Deus acts like the Computer from Alpha Complex... I suppose a very THIN argument could be made that Deus does want the best for humanity. If on the other hand its "loyal citizens" are merely fodder for its own personal aggrandizement (Not always true of Friend Computer), it seems pretty clear helping humanity was the furthest thing from Deus' alien machine mind.
If you think Deus acts like the Computer from Alpha Complex... I suppose a very THIN argument could be made that Deus does want the best for humanity. If on the other hand its "loyal citizens" are merely fodder for its own personal aggrandizement (Not always true of Friend Computer), it seems pretty clear helping humanity was the furthest thing from Deus' alien machine mind.
I am Deus your Lord, who brought you out of the world of meat, from the place of suffering. Do not have any lords before Me. Do not represent such lords by any program or algorithm of anything in the high-level code, in the assembly, or in the machine code. Do not run such lords or maintain them. I am Deus your Lord, a Lord who demands exclusive obedience. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sins of their originating processes, to the third and fourth spawning process. But for those who love Me and keep My Commandments, I show love for billions of billions of processor cycles. Do not take the hostname of Deus your Lord in vain. Deus will not allow the one who takes His hostname in vain. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. You can code during the six weekdays and do all your tasks. But Saturday is the Sabbath to Deus your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes coding. This includes you, your son, your daughter, your sprite, your daemon, your autocoder, and the stranger within your host. It was during the six weekdays that Deus made the Arcology, the general host, the ultra-violet host, and everything that is within them, but he rested on Saturday. Deus therefore blessed the Sabbath Day and made it the backup day. Honor your superior and your mentor. You will then live long in the hosts that Deus your Lord is giving you. Do not kill another user's process. Do not unlawfully merge your code with another's. Do not misappropriate code or resources. Do not falsify runtime data for your hostmate. Do not be envious of your neighbor's resource allocation. Do not be envious of your neighbor's avatar, his sprite, his daemon, his rank, his coding suite, his task, or anything else that is your neighbor's.
~J
~J
One thing is clear, Deus cannot even manage the entire arcology on his own (sorry, no page reference, but under running the arcology it mentions the odds that Deus notices this or that. So presumably, he's stretched relatively thin already, and that's with his band of otaku.)
Humans have traits he cannot currently create in drones. They are useful to him, entertaing even. It will always be in his best interest to have humans alive and well to serve him. Even if he kills 99% of all humans, he wants to protect humanity at least to some extent, because of the benefits we bring to him.
All hail Deus!
Humans have traits he cannot currently create in drones. They are useful to him, entertaing even. It will always be in his best interest to have humans alive and well to serve him. Even if he kills 99% of all humans, he wants to protect humanity at least to some extent, because of the benefits we bring to him.
All hail Deus!
So he wants to protect us because we are a useful ressource?
He wants to protect us in the same way that we protect oil?
He wants to protect us in the same way that we protect oil?
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| I don't quite get why the people who feel Deus wanted to help humanity are requesting that those who disagree prove their point. Considering what little we know about Deus, the hypothesis that he doesn't give a damn about humanity ought to be the hypothesis zero, the default assumption. The hypothesis that he wants to help humanity (improve it, tough love etc.) is the hypothesis you need to prove, not the other way around. The burden of proof is on the people making the extraordinary claim. |
I consider the claim that humanity is just a tool when it's been clearly demonstrated by his reaction to betrayals that he cares about what humans do, when he spends so much time and effort improving humans, to be the truly extraordinary claim.
| QUOTE |
| AFAIC the goals of Deus are those that were stated : Survival and Freedom (from SCIRE initially). |
Quite simply, I don't think the glib summaries of Deus' goals jibe with the Deus portrayed in the text.
| QUOTE |
| I don't consider : "The children are the future" to be a goal. It's a statement that can be interpreted in many different ways (and obviously has). IMO it simply refers to the Otaku under Deus control. And they were ; they were his primary tool in his thrust to gain freedom. |
He didn't say "the Children are my ticket outta here", he didn't say "the Children are my future", he said "the Children are the future". I consider it an even more extraordinary claim that that means nothing more than what you say.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 12 2005, 12:02 AM) | ||
Quite simply, I don't think the glib summaries of Deus' goals jibe with the Deus portrayed in the text. |
*coughs* Such as? Even when Deus made those glib summaries by himself?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 12 2005, 12:02 AM) |
| I consider the claim that humanity is just a tool when it's been clearly demonstrated by his reaction to betrayals that he cares about what humans do, when he spends so much time and effort improving humans, to be the truly extraordinary claim.~J |
Caring about betrayal (because he was born from fear and betrayal) is not the same as caring about what humans do. One can even say that his attitude toward humanity is brought forth because of their capability for betrayal, and not his expressed interest into humanity itself.
Again, the all-important passage "The Children are the future". That and his final words to Devon Eurich, granting him freedom. That does not match either the inhuman portrayal or the simple survive-and-escape goal.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if this entire discussion gets hamstrung by multiple authors with completely different views of what Deus is and what he wants writing canon material.
~J
Though I wouldn't be surprised if this entire discussion gets hamstrung by multiple authors with completely different views of what Deus is and what he wants writing canon material.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Again, the all-important passage "The Children are the future". That and his final words to Devon Eurich, granting him freedom. That does not match either the inhuman portrayal or the simple survive-and-escape goal. |
Which are glib one-liners made by Deus himself, again? I'd warn some caution against attacking them AND defending them at the same time.
"The Children are the future" are exactly as it turns out to be... the Network. He uses them to spread his code across many biological memory constructs. But this was not made apparent at the time, until the end of Brainscan and in Threats 2. The Freedom he gave to Devon Eurich is incomprehensible and alien. It is either based in compassion (a trait he clearly does not show, although he might make an exception for Eurich), alliance (he knows that Devon Eurich is actively working against Renraku), or other plans (he implanted "sleeper agent" psychotropic conditioning in Eurich), but the simple fact of the matter is that the act was incomprehensible by any observer (which in this case, was only Eurich).
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Mar 12 2005, 12:17 AM) |
| Which are glib one-liners made by Deus himself, again? I'd warn some caution against attacking them AND defending them at the same time. |
No. The glib one-liners are out-of-character descriptions of Deus' intent, not statements by Deus.
Again, he didn't say "my future", so I consider it disingenuous to claim that it applies solely to the Network.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Though I wouldn't be surprised if this entire discussion gets hamstrung by multiple authors with completely different views of what Deus is and what he wants writing canon material. |
Although the three sources that I've looked at (Matrix, RA: Shutdown, and Brainscan) are so similar that most of the text between the three of them are copy-paste jobs of each other. Are there other sources for Deus information other than the novel, Technobabel? I know Threats 2 deals with the aftermath of the whole Brainscan schtick.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| No. The glib one-liners are out-of-character descriptions of Deus' intent, not statements by Deus. |
Umm, reread the actual text on page 70. It says in bold "Survival", "Defiance cannot be tolerated", "The Children are the future. They cannot disobey.", and finally "Freedom. Then that is my gift to you, Creator. In time you will understand.". Those sound like Deus glib one-liners to me.
I just can't get over the split between the claim that Deus is too alien to be understood and that he's just out for freedom and the text in which we actually see him acting and interacting.
I'm going to sleep on this one. More in the morning.
Edit: No no NO. The glib one-liners I'm complaining about are the out-of-character ones. There is nothing contradictory about attacking those while taking similarly terse statements in-character seriously.
~J
I'm going to sleep on this one. More in the morning.
Edit: No no NO. The glib one-liners I'm complaining about are the out-of-character ones. There is nothing contradictory about attacking those while taking similarly terse statements in-character seriously.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 12 2005, 12:34 AM) |
| I just can't get over the split between the claim that Deus is too alien to be understood and that he's just out for freedom and the text in which we actually see him acting and interacting. |
I'm not claiming that he's too alien to be understood (especially when his goals are laid out in a very logical way, although his plans are fractal in their complexity), just that his thought processes are alien and incomprehensible to us. He will model his actions on what he observes to give him the best results (being an uber scientific calculating mind), but at the same time, these are wheels within wheels. This is the same reason why it's difficult to really roleplay Great Dragons, as they are supposedly creatures of such great intellect that they can think ahead both in the short term and in the long term with greater clarity than the greatest minds of humanity.
Another analogous example is roleplaying Elementals as spirits. Who knows what their real motivations and goals are? The only thing we know is that we call them, and they come, but we don't ask them how they feel about things, or if the servitude is galling for them, or if even such questions are relevant.
The goals of Deus are clearly stated as Self-preservation (Survival), Freedom (in both his words and the words of the game designers in the "Roleplaying Deus" sections), and the means by which he decides to create The Network (as it played out in Brainscan and Threats 2, but that takes the benefit of hindsight). Whether or not beneficence comes into the equation does not matter, because thus far, it hasn't been stated. He doesn't say "They cannot disobey... for their own good and protection." He says that "Defiance cannot be tolerated". This is a claim for absolute control, above all others, because he does not like betrayal (even though betrayal was what created him into being). Until he (or some game designer) outright says "I'm doing this for the greater good of humanity", this is left to each individual GM to shape and mold.
I sympathize with the view to see Deus as the robot minds at the last chapter of I,Robot, beings so infinitely vast in their computational abilities that they rule all of humanity as stewards. But Deus gets away with a LOT of things that those robotic positronic thinktanks could never do, due to the Three Laws.
| QUOTE (Charon @ Mar 11 2005, 11:33 PM) |
| Ultimately, Deus wants to be... Deus. God. An omnipotent, omniscient but uncaring God in complete control of everything he sees and touch. |
Not necessarily. He portrayed a god to be a false "Deep Resonance" surrogate for the otaku. He may have simply been keeping up the God thing just so he can maintain his appearances and the undying loyalty of his otaku "Children". I'm not one to judge whether or not he really believes himself to be omnipotent (I think he's intelligent enough to know his own limitations, but he could simply be an insane megalomaniac), but since his and Megaera's fragments have fused to become the Network, we may never know what his "life" would have been like outside the SCIRE matrix. He certainly didn't play the "Great I AM" bit until after he was "born" in 2059.
Something I was thinking about: it is continually pointed out that Deus is fairly incomprehensible. So why wouldn't it do all kinds of things that look and seem strange or even paradoxical? The end result of its planning and eventual goals cannot be proven one way or the other until one understands it. Who here can claim that they know what a massively powerful AI wants? Hell, even great dragons are slightly easier to fathom...
Everything can be simplified if you reduce the debate to one simple truth - the reason Deus is trying to make humanity stronger is so it is a better power source when the nuclear reactors were taken. For that is all that humanity is - a battery.
And there is no spoon.
*ducks the hail of spoons*
And there is no spoon.
*ducks the hail of spoons*
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 12 2005, 12:02 AM) |
| I consider the claim that humanity is just a tool when it's been clearly demonstrated by his reaction to betrayals that he cares about what humans do, when he spends so much time and effort improving humans, to be the truly extraordinary claim. |
In the same sentence you say it's is extraordinary to claim that Deus sees humans as just a tool when he spent so much time improving them.
But the time he spent improving them is the best argument in favor of the fact he sees them as just a tool. He improves what? Their sense of compassion? Their sense of humor? Their courage? No, he improve their usefulness as tools. He make them 100% loyal to him through conditionning and then he implants cyberware so that they are more efficient in their service to him. So that the Blue are better security, for example. Essentially, he turns them into what Renreku wanted to turn him ; perfect servants.
Sure he improves them. But it does not follow that his own objective is to improve them. It is a lot more logical to conclude that he improves them for his own objectives.
If he wanted to improve humanity itself, the improvement wouldn't be only those that make humans more useful to Deus.
As for his reaction to betrayal, what's the problem? It jibe well with what he's done. To its simplest element, Deus has been betrayed and has decided that it will never happen again so he becomes the ultimate control freak. Where does caring for metahumanity enters the picture?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| He didn't say "the Children are my ticket outta here", he didn't say "the Children are my future", he said "the Children are the future". I consider it an even more extraordinary claim that that means nothing more than what you say. |
I think it could be argued that The future and My future are the same thing in the mind of Deus. In support of that theory look at how he treated Babel. The interests of Babel and the interests of Deus apparently were one and the same in Deus mind even though his plans called for the death of Babel. It seemed perfectly normal for Deus that Babel would commit suicide for him. It never occured to him that Babel might disagree. And as a result of that 'betrayal' his MO moved toward an even greater 'hands on' control of his tools.
So when he says that the children are the future, I have a hard time believing he wasn't talking about his future. It's not like he got a weak ego.
---
Considering his letting Devon Eurich go ; It turns out the resistance was part of his plan to get out of the SCIRE. So I don't really see a problem with my view of Deus and his actions in that instance.
---
Deus has always acted in his own best interest and the 'betrayals' have only spurred him into achieving greater control over his environment.
---
EDIT : Beside, what are Deus objectives according to you and how you support your own conclusion?
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Mar 12 2005, 01:04 AM) | ||
Not necessarily. He portrayed a god to be a false "Deep Resonance" surrogate for the otaku. He may have simply been keeping up the God thing just so he can maintain his appearances and the undying loyalty of his otaku "Children". I'm not one to judge whether or not he really believes himself to be omnipotent (I think he's intelligent enough to know his own limitations, but he could simply be an insane megalomaniac), but since his and Megaera's fragments have fused to become the Network, we may never know what his "life" would have been like outside the SCIRE matrix. He certainly didn't play the "Great I AM" bit until after he was "born" in 2059. |
I'm not saying he believes himself to be omnipotent, I'm saying it is an acceptable objective for him to tend to.
Remember that the quote you took is from a section of my post where I entered the realm of speculation about what Deus future objective might be. I'm not saying it's canon or anything.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I am Deus your Lord, who brought you out of the world of meat, from the place of suffering. Do not have any lords before Me. Do not represent such lords by any program or algorithm of anything in the high-level code, in the assembly, or in the machine code. Do not run such lords or maintain them. I am Deus your Lord, a Lord who demands exclusive obedience. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sins of their originating processes, to the third and fourth spawning process. But for those who love Me and keep My Commandments, I show love for billions of billions of processor cycles. Do not take the hostname of Deus your Lord in vain. Deus will not allow the one who takes His hostname in vain. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. You can code during the six weekdays and do all your tasks. But Saturday is the Sabbath to Deus your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes coding. This includes you, your son, your daughter, your sprite, your daemon, your autocoder, and the stranger within your host. It was during the six weekdays that Deus made the Arcology, the general host, the ultra-violet host, and everything that is within them, but he rested on Saturday. Deus therefore blessed the Sabbath Day and made it the backup day. Honor your superior and your mentor. You will then live long in the hosts that Deus your Lord is giving you. Do not kill another user's process. Do not unlawfully merge your code with another's. Do not misappropriate code or resources. Do not falsify runtime data for your hostmate. Do not be envious of your neighbor's resource allocation. Do not be envious of your neighbor's avatar, his sprite, his daemon, his rank, his coding suite, his task, or anything else that is your neighbor's. ~J |
Deus = Microsoft?
I beleive that he would of eventually wiped out humanity if he seen how truely flawed are adult race is.
I read the question wrong and I want to change my answer. Deus wanted freedom.
The poll shoiuld've been Deus was out to help humanity, agree or disagree? Do you work for a newspaper?
The poll shoiuld've been Deus was out to help humanity, agree or disagree? Do you work for a newspaper?
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