I'm rolling up a manipulation-focused raven shaman for a 4e game and wondering if I can sub mental manipulation spells for the combat spells I might otherwise take. For example, going with Mob Control rather than Stunball - drain formulas are similar for both spells, except I don't have to add any hits on my dice roll to the drain value for Mob Control, so bonus. Plus, Mob Control instantly takes an enemy out of harm's way (since I can have them start pistol-whipping themselves into unconsciousness or tossing aside their weapons and sitting down on the ground while we tie them up or etc.) while an enemy might not get immediately wiped out from that Force 5 Stunball I just cast and tries smashing my face in shortly after. I'd guess that having Mob Control & Control Thoughts in my arsenal is going to get me past any meat-based enemy just as well as the usual Manabolt & Stunball mages pack in their arsenal (except other mages, but Manabolting them ain't going to do much either). Since spirits are open to mental manipulation spells, it seems like a waste to kill them when I can just take them over

I've never used these kinds of spells in-game, so maybe I'm missing something, but is this a viable route, spellwise? (Especially for a raven shaman with a manipulation specialization rolling a mess of dice, meaning spells success is likely, and control will last a good number of turns before the target gets another roll to break free?) Or am I totally missing something and should pick a combat spell or two up, stat?

Well, it is viable but I'll point out a few things.

Stunbolt's drain vs Control Mob's drain is not all that similar. It's a 3 DV difference. Doesn't seem like much but consider that on average it takes 3 dice to produce 1 success. So 3 more drain means you'll need about 9 more dice to reliably soak the difference and that's before factoring in the spell's force. And remember, force limits hits, not net hits, so if you cast a mental manipulation spell at force 3 you better hope the defender doesn't get 3 hits, cause the most you could use is 3 and defender wins ties. This means you'll have to keep the force higher then what you think they could score. Keep these things in mind if you decide to make this your mainstay weapon of choice.

Second, if you're going to be a mental manipulation specialist I'd recommend talking to your GM first. Mental manipulation spells can have a game breaking effect if the GM isn't adequately prepared for them.

Third, you should be aware of the social implications of such spells. While there is some debate on just how badly it's viewed, mental manipulations spells are almost always considered a really bad thing by the public at large and practicioners are usually feared and not trusted. Course there are exceptions to this, like those good folks at Aztechnology's Human Resources department, who can be completely trusted to have Aztechnology's citizen's best interests at heart.

Mob Control has a DV of (F/2)+2 and Stunball has a DV of (F/2)+1, so they're not terribly different (Mob Mind is the one with the huge drain). And with a magic of 5 meaning I'm going to be casting at Force 5 unless overcasting, and uncounterspelled people only get a Will dice pool to resist, I should be fine with most rolls, unless I go up against a bastard of an Edge-using dwarf.

Good point on the social aspect (though I'm guessing being an awakened spellslinger in general is going to have the mundanes in a tizzy, heh), and about running it past the GM first.

Isn't that an optional rule?

As for nice Manipulation spells, consider Levitate and Ignite. Both can be used in combat, but are also very versatile in other cases. Like going around or through barriers, or moving or destroying McGuffins.

There's a damaging manipulation spell in WAR!, but it's not even mildly subtle.

Ignite is pretty good as a damaging spell, provided you score enough hits to incinerate them instantly.

I have been using this as well, but keep in mind that charred corpses aren't exactly subtle

What, spontaneous combustion is no longer a good excuse in the 2070s?

I do like the sound of Ignite, though, hmm.

One that we're using, and a bunch of other tables use, but yes. Even without it though, the advantages still seem worth chancing the extra drain point.

Levitate is a decent option for manipulation as well.
moving the target at Force x net hits meters/turn is an easy way to drop people from insane heights very quickly.
also the utility of being able to levitate yourself.

depending on the body of your character you might find the manipulation spell shapeshift greatly increasing your durability. changing into a bear is great!

Not so sure about that. Gaining 2 points of Body doesn't make up for the loss of armor, resulting in a net penalty to his soak roll.

I've found that Shapeshift is nice for turning people into rats and small birds that can infiltrate undetected. Nice with Unarmed Combat Adepts, who don't need gear so much once they're in.

edited - double post

Indeed! One of my preferred forms is that of a python. Great for working your way through ductwork and climbing in areas and general stealth. Also, if you have surprise, quite deadly. I have enjoyed the heck out of my mystic adept of the Raven tradition. I noticed that most of the spells you folks have recommended are on my list. Here's my spell list:

Powerball (Com)
Heal (Heal)
Imp. Invisibility (Ill)
Armor (Man)
Ignite (Man)
Levitate (Man)
Shadow (Man)
Shapechange (Man)

Note: Not only did I choose the Raven tradition with it's plus 2 to Manip spells, I also specialized in Spellcasting (Manipulation). That's some serious nice dice added. He also has a power focus +2.

My group does houserule that foci, since they are attuned to you magically, stay with your shape-changed form.

Might I suggest a custom made area petrify spell has a heavy force this is true (F/2)+4 and requires Force equal or higher to the body. But for grunts without trolls you can turn a room into a room of statues as long as you sustain it.

Force five gives you 6 drain to soak which can be a pain but with enough hits thats eveyone with a body of five or below in your vision no longer a problem. Overcasting for trolls would hurt though.


But one manipulation spell I would suggest is Shape Air F/2+3 but Net hits equal Meters per second movement and you can control where it goes. Most people dont have back up air supplys and the sudden removal of all the air in the area can be a issue. Hell just move all the air down to below knee level and they are in trouble. Ok not a instant knock out but its bound to affect people and makes for some fun all round.

Also, you should maybe ask your GM, how he will handle the time gap between the time the spell is cast and the time you can give orders to your victims. Usually this will be one action phase, so your victims will usually have the chance to act after the Mob Control is cast on them but before you can give them orders for the first time.

I've seen this handled differently by GMs. Some argue, that Mob / Thought Control victims without orders don't act at all, others say they can act normally until they receive orders from the caster. IIRC, this was never fully explained in the spell descriptions or FAQ. But until you cleared that issue with your GM, you can't be sure that Mob Control really is an instant effect spell...

-CJ

That's a really good point - the spell description does say that "when not directly controlled, the victim may act as normal", so unless I'm getting the drop on them, that probably does make things a bit let useful.

I have mixed feelings about Ignite. On one hand, the ability to set anything on fire in about 3 seconds is useful.

On the other hand, its a Permament spell, so no matter how many hits you get, it'll take effect in Twice the Drain's # of Combat Turns.
Its like Toxins - you've got to wait 4 passes before it kicks in, which can be annoying. Oh yeah. AND you get a -2 to everything until that happens. Because it has to be sustained till permanent.

That being said, I've made a character who tries to make it work, after talking with the GM about it.
I rolled Hot Potato and ignite into one physical, elemental manipulation spell with the spell design rules: an object/person gets painfully hot, smokes, THEN sets on fire after a moment.
Once something's on fire, you can use Shape Fire to fan the flames, provide cover/break visibility, and hit other nearby things with it.

Its also a great way to get rid of evidence.

IMO, you should take Increase Reflexes, especially with your group's houserule on Foci. Otherwise, having only 1 IP will hurt you in combats.

The character is a Mystic Adept and he has Improved Reflexes as an Adept Power. I totally agree with your reasoning, however.

Vlad