Full Version: Becoming a shaman
How would you treat it if you had a player who wanted to become a shaman after character creation? Karma cost etc.?
Depends on wether or not they had any magic capablility in the first place. A Street Sam with 0 Magica can not become a shaman, not matter how much the player may want it. The potential to use magic was just never there.
However, if we're talking a Adept going to a Shaman or a Hermetic going to a Shaman. Then yes, its' possible. In the case of the adedpt I'd have him pay for the skills/spells with Karma over time. The Hermetic would just require some minor alterations.
That;s the way I'd do it at least.
However, if we're talking a Adept going to a Shaman or a Hermetic going to a Shaman. Then yes, its' possible. In the case of the adedpt I'd have him pay for the skills/spells with Karma over time. The Hermetic would just require some minor alterations.
That;s the way I'd do it at least.
i'd carefully question the player. for instance, my first question would be "why you always gotta make me hit you?"
Assuming that I were comfortable with a player gaining magic powers after character creation, I'd look at the difference in Attribute points for assigning A priority to Attributes and for assigning E priority in attributes. Then I'd take this difference and divide it by 6. Then I'd calculate how much Karma it'd cost to raise an attribute by this value, then multiply that by 6. That would be the minimum amount of Karma I'd charge for acquiring Magic after character creation.
And then I'd start planning how the player could roleplay the experience of becoming a Shaman. If they don't do it well, I'd start adding Karma surcharges.
And then I'd start planning how the player could roleplay the experience of becoming a Shaman. If they don't do it well, I'd start adding Karma surcharges.
This gets asked every few months, it seems. Options:
1) (preferred) Slap them with large fish.
2) Assign a really high karma cost to it (something like 10 karma/build point, for a total cost of 300 karma for a full Shaman)
3) #2, but with cost broken up into increments (so you can become a Magic 1 Shaman for only 50 karma, and then buy from there)
~J
1) (preferred) Slap them with large fish.
2) Assign a really high karma cost to it (something like 10 karma/build point, for a total cost of 300 karma for a full Shaman)
3) #2, but with cost broken up into increments (so you can become a Magic 1 Shaman for only 50 karma, and then buy from there)
~J
It's a lot easier to just treat the Magic priority as an edge-on-crack. You can buy off Flaws for 10 Karma per point, I believe, so reversing that it should cost about (250-30 Spell Points) 220 Karma to become aspected or an adept and (300-25 Spell Points) 275 to become a full magician. I don't know too many players willing to save up that kind of Karma for what would, by that time, be a minor boost in power, though. Which is probably why it's not a standard option to begin with.
just make the character take 30 pts' worth of flaws, to pay for it.
Yea, and make most of them magical flaws 
Worst magician ever.
Worst magician ever.
6 severe common phobias should work.
"A human walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"An orc walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"A dwarf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"A troll walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"An elf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"You see yourself in the mirror, roll willpower to avoid running."
"A human walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"An orc walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"A dwarf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"A troll walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"An elf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running."
"You see yourself in the mirror, roll willpower to avoid running."
I had a player in one of my games that wanted to play a shaman, but he didn't necessarily want to pick the totem. We devised a way through roleplaying where his totem visited him. This was done after three solo runs where we decided that the way he deals with people would ultimately decide which totem came to him. In the end, it was up to me... and he was happy with it all.
However, he set aside the points ahead of time and built his character as if he were a shaman from the get-go. The whole thing went down as a pre-story, with the character eventually running with the rest of the party about 4 years after the pre-story.
Aside from someone basically creating a magical character from the get-go, I don't think I would allow someone to spontaneously start casting.
However, he set aside the points ahead of time and built his character as if he were a shaman from the get-go. The whole thing went down as a pre-story, with the character eventually running with the rest of the party about 4 years after the pre-story.
Aside from someone basically creating a magical character from the get-go, I don't think I would allow someone to spontaneously start casting.
I kinda go along with Crimson Jack on this one:
1. Pay for your aspected/full magician status at character gen. otherwise it just doesn't happen.
2. Allow player to begin the game as a "mundane" with a latent magical power.
3. During the game, have the Totem visit the character. I would think the player could pick the Totem or your could go with Crimson Jack's concept of the GM decides.
1. Pay for your aspected/full magician status at character gen. otherwise it just doesn't happen.
2. Allow player to begin the game as a "mundane" with a latent magical power.
3. During the game, have the Totem visit the character. I would think the player could pick the Totem or your could go with Crimson Jack's concept of the GM decides.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| 6 severe common phobias sholud work. "A human walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running." "An orc walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running." "A dwarf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running." "A troll walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running." "An elf walks around the corner, roll willpower to avoid running." "You see yourself in the mirror, roll willpower to avoid running." |
"A horror walks around the corner; roll nothing because you are dead."
I figure let him, if he's a good enough roleplayer. Just make sure that everyone else thinks that he had to pay with sexual favors against his orientation.
And if I second person asks, reply with 'Come here so I can hit you without expending energy.'
As an aside: Player buys Cannon Companion, player discovers the gun I had scribbled out of existance, player argues that flachette should do through armor, since it's more areodynamic. I need a new stick. And a new player, incidentally.
You should've told him yes and then changed the damage code to 15L with eight successes needed to stage up and burst fire not staging.
~J
~J
so what about a mage wanting to become a shaman?
Well: Shamanism isn't something a character can choose, it's fairly strictly defined that you are chosen by a powerful spirit that gives you your power. IE: If the *character* just wanted to become a shaman: he probably won't be. If the player wants his character to become a shaman I'd look at the character and see what totem he fits best and consider having the totem hive him powers.
That's about the time I'd inform him that to attain even an aspected level of ability he'd need to spend at-least 250 karma.
If he's still cool with it, I'd let him pay his first installment of 60 karma to get magic 1 and astral perception (as per the SURGE effect).
If a character really wants to become a mage during gameplay, I'd make it slightly easier to become a mage as hermetic practices do not require the totem to choose you.
That's about the time I'd inform him that to attain even an aspected level of ability he'd need to spend at-least 250 karma.
If he's still cool with it, I'd let him pay his first installment of 60 karma to get magic 1 and astral perception (as per the SURGE effect).
If a character really wants to become a mage during gameplay, I'd make it slightly easier to become a mage as hermetic practices do not require the totem to choose you.
thanks for the info. the deal is my character in game has been devoting his life to magic and information... and even created a company called Enki-Werkz.
I was figuring that as a surprise, he may be given the choice of becoming a shaman following Enki. (pending gm approval, of course...So what say you, Reav?)
I was figuring that as a surprise, he may be given the choice of becoming a shaman following Enki. (pending gm approval, of course...So what say you, Reav?)
| QUOTE |
| Well: Shamanism isn't something a character can choose, it's fairly strictly defined that you are chosen by a powerful spirit that gives you your power. |
Oh, that so made me wince.
That's patently untrue. That's just what a handful of shamans like to say. A closer truth, found in all things magic, is that one's magic is influenced by their core beliefs for how and why their magic works. It's that simple.
That said, changing one's tradition is going to be next to impossible. Once it's set, it's set. It would be on par with changing your metatype so that you were a natural-born elf instead of a goblinized ork. I would allow a magician to undergo two or three initiations simultaneously (each one requiring a thesis and/or astral quest, then the first one changing their astral signature and the next one "learning" a "metamagic technique" to actually change their tradition), but that's just me. It would be time-consuming, eat up a bunch of Karma, and otherwise not really give you anything in return other than a change in flavor, and I'd only allow it if there was a really good reason in-game for the change as opposed to a player saying "I feel like being a shaman today."
I'd suggest you went for a hermetic path. Shamans don't just choose to be shamans, but your approach sounds sufficiently hermetic enough that you might one day after researching sufficiently figure-out a complex technique that allows you to open the doors in your mind that you always knew were there (or something).
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Oh, that so made me wince. That's patently untrue. That's just what a handful of shamans like to say. A closer truth, found in all things magic, is that one's magic is influenced by their core beliefs for how and why their magic works. It's that simple. |
Sorry, but I'm talking about common traits among real-life shamanic belief systems rather than the lumped-together stuff in shadowrun.
Which is exactly my point. That's all they are -- beliefs. Some shamans like to say that they were "chosen" by their totem, but that doesn't mean that they were and that that's the only way to become a shaman. It's just what they happen to believe about themselves.
There's an easy way to let mundane characters become magical, using the priority system.
1) Magic A or B.
2) Do not spend any points on magical skills.
3) Game on, and hope they don't screw their magic too badly through ware and other things.
4) OMG TEH AWAKEN LATERZORS.
And then allow them to buy spells and skills as per normal. Give them like, five spell points, or one power point, depending on which they are so they can have one or two powers, and a spell they can spontaneously pop off during their awakening.
Then again, I'm mean.
1) Magic A or B.
2) Do not spend any points on magical skills.
3) Game on, and hope they don't screw their magic too badly through ware and other things.
4) OMG TEH AWAKEN LATERZORS.
And then allow them to buy spells and skills as per normal. Give them like, five spell points, or one power point, depending on which they are so they can have one or two powers, and a spell they can spontaneously pop off during their awakening.
Then again, I'm mean.
| QUOTE (Dissonance) |
| Then again, I'm mean. |
Considering that that would pretty much screw any character's ability to be anywhere CLOSE "on par" with any other characters that are not trying this gimmick, I'd have to agree.
If your goal is to completely discourage someone from doing this, then way to go. Otherwise, who in their right mind would even consider doing that?
If they awakened and had full powers, or their powers showed up gradually (but without having to pay extra for it -- so that after a while they have the same powers as a normally-built shaman), that would seem more fair to the character and player.
I thought I read a good suggestion a while back. Either (1) make them pay right out the karma cost froim BeCKS' mage/shaman, or (2) make them pay part of it, and then raise their magic attribute (not via initiation, technically) by paying attribute-raising costs to balance it out (making sure that it does balance) if they want magic-on-layaway.
If they did the partial thing, they would only be able to allocate a smaller number (say, 1/6?) of a normal mage's starting power points towards spells, and then as they increase their magic towards six, give them an additional allowance of points to allocate. Note that they would not REALLY be gaining magic, they would have already had it (for game purposes like handling essence loss), this would reflect the unlocking of their magic potential.
In my opinion (well, as is all of this post
), any player that wants to do this is obviously in for a lot of Role-playing. They will need to play out their gaining of magic, perhaps the interaction with their totem (or the classes/challenges at MIT&T). This seems like the sort of things that most of us would want to see rewarded, not beaten down at the first sign. If the player seems like they are a good roleplayer, I'd say let 'em at it, and don't totally punish their character. If they had cyberware, then they will obviously be unable to get 6 magic -- though they should still get the normal allotment of power points, and be encouraged to spend them on spells that would cause physical drain via too-high-power.
They can always choose to initiate their way out of this hole once they're considered a full shaman or mage. Whee, more things for them to burn karma on. *laughs*Considering I've never had a character live that long, karmatically speaking, I don't really have a concept of how it could be abused. I mean, seriously, that's a lot of karma that'd be not spent on skills or attributes or whatnot. Sorry for the length of this, hehe...
...or just have them make a shaman from scratch and play one as thus. If the company that you've been working to create is of major importance, then you might want to get together with your GM and see if you could work out something in the campaign that you're in, where your new shaman becomes a business partner with your current character.
Current character goes on the shelf (or into your GM's notebook), and you start playing Runs With Scissors.
Does that work? Don't have to get raped on all of those high karma costs...
Current character goes on the shelf (or into your GM's notebook), and you start playing Runs With Scissors.
Does that work? Don't have to get raped on all of those high karma costs...
hmmm...i really like my current character as hes VERY unique, and fun to play.
Id rather not create a new character, if i could possibly afford it.
Perhaps do an over the years kind of change...? After all, he is an elf.
Id rather not create a new character, if i could possibly afford it.
Perhaps do an over the years kind of change...? After all, he is an elf.
There are two examples in fiction I can think of that involve a character Awakening to Shamanism late in life. Twist from the Secrets of Power trilogy, and the ork/troll (can't remember which) from Nosferatu. However, no rules on how to handle this sort of thing has ever been published, so you're pretty much just house ruling if you want to go that route. Make sure to make them pay for it in one way or another -- roleplay, karma, flaws, something. Otherwise, your other players will get upset that this guy gets some big bonus they don't get.
Personally, I think you should just leave it alone and leave him as a mundane. In the Shadowrun world, there are thousands if not millions of people who want to be magicians who study magic in hopes they can "awaken" power within them (both in the game books and in the fiction), many of whom shell out thousands of nuyen to all sorts of con artists claiming they can bring out their inner power (UB anyone?
). However, these people are just plain flat stuck. They don't have the talent, sorry. Try again next reincarnation.
The Abstruse One
Personally, I think you should just leave it alone and leave him as a mundane. In the Shadowrun world, there are thousands if not millions of people who want to be magicians who study magic in hopes they can "awaken" power within them (both in the game books and in the fiction), many of whom shell out thousands of nuyen to all sorts of con artists claiming they can bring out their inner power (UB anyone?
). However, these people are just plain flat stuck. They don't have the talent, sorry. Try again next reincarnation.The Abstruse One
I don't believe the UB ever claimed to bring out one's inner power. They were a Good Samaritan organization, plain and simple.
~J
~J
If I was feeling kind enough to allow this, it would count as their one usage of HoG. Lose all Karma Pool and Karma. Since this is a near death experience, just use your imagination...
Nobody I game with will sanely give up Hand of God for something this trivial. They are much more frequently scared for their lives.
Nobody I game with will sanely give up Hand of God for something this trivial. They are much more frequently scared for their lives.
| QUOTE (Arz) |
| Nobody I game with will sanely give up Hand of God for something this trivial. They are much more frequently scared for their lives. |
Good point... so long as they've actually racked up enough karma for that to be a hard decision.
Another thing to remember is that (IRL, IIRC) a shaman becoems a shaman through a serious life-threatening ordeal. It is a test. Survive and you can start to the process that will make you a full shaman, die and you don't get to be a shaman. (I confess now that it may vary from path to path but I am not just a new-age nutcase - I am the son of a reluctant shaman; he is, he can but he won't)
Even then I would agree that they pay for it through karma, gaining a little more each time until they gain 'full' access to their magic. So think of the near-death ordeal as a bonus difficulty, another stumbling block on the way to their true calling. And, as a back-up, bring in a starter-level shaman of their totem as an NPC guide. That way, the player can take over the NPC if (when) they die.
Even then I would agree that they pay for it through karma, gaining a little more each time until they gain 'full' access to their magic. So think of the near-death ordeal as a bonus difficulty, another stumbling block on the way to their true calling. And, as a back-up, bring in a starter-level shaman of their totem as an NPC guide. That way, the player can take over the NPC if (when) they die.
IŽd let it happen, if it could be made a cool roleplaying moment. Its not unheard of that for example riggers become magicians in the middle of a story, because they really had the gift but destroyed it with technology. Happened in some novel i think. Also, thereŽs a powerful mage in the novel 'Ragnarok' who became a shaman when he changed beliefs and became a hedonistic worshiper of nordic myth. So the only thing required for going from mage to shaman should be a complete and sincere change in beliefs. (witch is no small thing, mind you) If a player makes that decition, and it later turns out it was made on a wim, I think hell should be payed.
@Kagetenshi
Universal Brotherhood recruiting handouts/posters:
"Unleash your Inner Abilities."
"Unlock the potentials of your mind and body."
"Get in touch with the power inside you."
"We put you in touch with the deepest power and knowledge at the core of your being."
Universal Brotherhood recruiting handouts/posters:
"Unleash your Inner Abilities."
"Unlock the potentials of your mind and body."
"Get in touch with the power inside you."
"We put you in touch with the deepest power and knowledge at the core of your being."
Interesting. Hadn't realized they had that sort of ad campaign. I associate that more with the Aleph Society.
Ah well.
~J
Ah well.
~J
| QUOTE (boodah) |
| Perhaps do an over the years kind of change...? After all, he is an elf. |
What's being an elf have to do with it? For the record, the Keebs don't drip pizie dust from their fingers or anything, they just got pointed ears, live a bit longer, and are a bit better-looking that everyone else.
| QUOTE (Large Mike) |
| What's being an elf have to do with it? |
i was thinking a reduced karma cost for a much slower change.
This is really a GM call. I think any house rules you are going to see put up will be of the "Only an idiot would do it" variety. 300 Karma?
As a GM I'd go through a mental sort of checklist. Does it fit with your roleplay? Would the other players mind? <specifically any other magickers, who I would most likely consult for their opinions on the matter> Would it be overpowering for your character? What am I having for dinner tonight? Etc.
Then, assuming I decided it was a good idea, I'd have you write up your guy as a shaman. Like you were creating a brand new character. Then I'd work out how much experience and money you'd have to spend to be where you are now. I'm not saying it very well, but my goal would be to end up with a sheet that is legal, with the priorities in the right spots. The character would then be in debt to me until their sheet was paid in full, money and karmawise. And I'd not let him use his magic with any certainty until that point as well...
As a GM I'd go through a mental sort of checklist. Does it fit with your roleplay? Would the other players mind? <specifically any other magickers, who I would most likely consult for their opinions on the matter> Would it be overpowering for your character? What am I having for dinner tonight? Etc.
Then, assuming I decided it was a good idea, I'd have you write up your guy as a shaman. Like you were creating a brand new character. Then I'd work out how much experience and money you'd have to spend to be where you are now. I'm not saying it very well, but my goal would be to end up with a sheet that is legal, with the priorities in the right spots. The character would then be in debt to me until their sheet was paid in full, money and karmawise. And I'd not let him use his magic with any certainty until that point as well...
I dont think it would be overpowered. Im not going to take any bonuses from the totem. This is more of a roleplay change, not a munchkinish change.
If U want to be cruel... have the player who is dying to become a mage study and seek out a mentor and do tests and jump through all kind of hoops - only to find out he doesn't have the talent. Next game session, have another party member (preferrably choose the magic-hating gunbunny with Essence 0.05 to be spontaneously contacted by his totem and find out he has a few geased points of magic... 
Personally, I would allow it to happen (or even make it happen to someone...). Some options:
- The Talent 'awakens' in them when they are subjected to high levels of mana
- A suitable (GM's choice depending on character personality) totem chooses the character
- Through study and testing the character finds out he has magic potential - choose something approperiate to the character.
I'd 'give' them the first point of magic, then they have to earn the rest by roleplaying approperiate to their totem, as well as study and maybe some sort of vision quest. I'd base the karma cost on the costs for initiation - 5 Karma+grade(=0) times 3 (or 2 if the character has the assistance of a suitable teacher/magic group). If you want to make it easier on the character, you can have the cost scale up:
Magic 1 = 'free' from study, totem contact, or traumatic experience (maybe 'pay' with Hand of God, as suggested - or a flat Karma fee)
Magic 2 = 1 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 3 = 2 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 4 = 3 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 5 = 4 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 6 = 5 (x 2 or 3)
That way it follows the curve for initiation. For those with lost essence, up the costs as if they already had as much magic as they have 'lost' or allow them to buy as normal but with suitable geasa in place. (Or why not invert the above list and make the first points really costly to aquire (magic being 'new' to them, and make it easier as they advance...)
For adepts I'd have the first few powers just manifest, if they awaken through self discovery. Let the player figure out that he has powers and that he's an adept (just choose suitable powers - based either on the character, or on what power he would 'need' to get through a traumatic/very dangerous situation.) And if he awakens with the help of a teacher, limit him to the powers of the teacher.
As for skills and spells - time, money and regular karma costs should balance those new abilities. It isn't cheap being a mage - even a starting one.
If other players complain - give them a break on something; maybe let them develop an edge or finally get ahold of that piece of gear they always wanted - or simply tell them that while mr.newbie mage diversifies, they can use their karma and money to specialize and grow better at what they do. Or that they are free to diversify in another field. After all, any character can get a datajack and save up money for a decent cyberdeck and progs to become a decker, or get a VCR and some nifty drones and vehicles to become a rigger...
Personally, I would allow it to happen (or even make it happen to someone...). Some options:
- The Talent 'awakens' in them when they are subjected to high levels of mana
- A suitable (GM's choice depending on character personality) totem chooses the character
- Through study and testing the character finds out he has magic potential - choose something approperiate to the character.
I'd 'give' them the first point of magic, then they have to earn the rest by roleplaying approperiate to their totem, as well as study and maybe some sort of vision quest. I'd base the karma cost on the costs for initiation - 5 Karma+grade(=0) times 3 (or 2 if the character has the assistance of a suitable teacher/magic group). If you want to make it easier on the character, you can have the cost scale up:
Magic 1 = 'free' from study, totem contact, or traumatic experience (maybe 'pay' with Hand of God, as suggested - or a flat Karma fee)
Magic 2 = 1 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 3 = 2 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 4 = 3 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 5 = 4 (x 2 or 3)
Magic 6 = 5 (x 2 or 3)
That way it follows the curve for initiation. For those with lost essence, up the costs as if they already had as much magic as they have 'lost' or allow them to buy as normal but with suitable geasa in place. (Or why not invert the above list and make the first points really costly to aquire (magic being 'new' to them, and make it easier as they advance...)
For adepts I'd have the first few powers just manifest, if they awaken through self discovery. Let the player figure out that he has powers and that he's an adept (just choose suitable powers - based either on the character, or on what power he would 'need' to get through a traumatic/very dangerous situation.) And if he awakens with the help of a teacher, limit him to the powers of the teacher.
As for skills and spells - time, money and regular karma costs should balance those new abilities. It isn't cheap being a mage - even a starting one.
If other players complain - give them a break on something; maybe let them develop an edge or finally get ahold of that piece of gear they always wanted - or simply tell them that while mr.newbie mage diversifies, they can use their karma and money to specialize and grow better at what they do. Or that they are free to diversify in another field. After all, any character can get a datajack and save up money for a decent cyberdeck and progs to become a decker, or get a VCR and some nifty drones and vehicles to become a rigger...
OK, i have this idea.
I want my character to become a great dragon later in life. Can HE do it gradually over time? What's the karma cost like?
Oh, yeah... it shouldn't be that hard, since he IS an elf.
I want my character to become a great dragon later in life. Can HE do it gradually over time? What's the karma cost like?
Oh, yeah... it shouldn't be that hard, since he IS an elf.
Oh, MAN. I can tell i'm going to take some flak for THAT one.
Oh, I'd allow that easily. I'd allow it for free, and instantly.
A new Great Dragon without any contacts amongst the other Greats? Ouch.
~J
A new Great Dragon without any contacts amongst the other Greats? Ouch.
~J
MY great dragon would be the king of all dragons... indeed, of all dragon-kind. He would be the template from which all dragons were wrought.
I'm going to stop now.
(5 points for whoever names the reference.)
I'm going to stop now.
(5 points for whoever names the reference.)
You should give your dragon a really fast car too... oh, and some cool sunglasses. 
Actually, there is a way in the cannon rules to give someone magic. The Surge edge for Astral Perception gives them one point of magic (they may have to take a few Geas' to keep that magic point), but no skills. So, if you do that and balance it out with something nasty, like say, Chronic Osteocuspis, and then make them buy every point of magic above that, an all of their skills, and all of their spells.
-Slapstick
-Slapstick
My bunny will still kick your ass.
~J
~J
on a more plausable note, are there any rules for going from and aspected to full magic?
| QUOTE |
| MY great dragon would be the king of all dragons... indeed, of all dragon-kind. He would be the template from which all dragons were wrought. |
And I can go from zero to drunk in 60 seconds!
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| My bunny will still kick your ass. ~J |
I think ol' boy here gets the prize...
Why thank you. *Bows*
~J
~J
smiley, be glad i dont own any nukes.
id gladly waste one on you.
how many people just ignored my post stating that its a roleplay change, not a character change?
reaver, what are your thoughts?
id gladly waste one on you.
how many people just ignored my post stating that its a roleplay change, not a character change?
reaver, what are your thoughts?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.