Gatling guns in shadowrun are basically machine guns that fires about 50% faster. However, this is far from reflecting what a real gatling gun is capable of doing, being able to shoot literally hundreds of bullets of seconds.
What I expect here isn't a houserule proposition be rather a discussion on how they could work in this game, when completely disregarding the obvious balance issue.

Let's say I have a minigun, with a potential firing rate of 50 rounds pet bursts and a base damage of, well... whatever. Let's say base damage of 8. Let's imagine that the recoil is also manageable in some way or another.

Now, this weapon, according to the base rules, would either obliterate the target or leave it unscratched because of the nature of armor. Indeed, I don't see many things capable of soaking 58 points of damage each rounds. However, depending on the user's skill, the damage might be downgraded to stun damage (which would still obliterate a living target, but do basically nothing to an object).

To anyone that actually deciphered my horrible english, I ask: how would you work this around?

PS: disregard balance issue, I just want a logical "fix" that fits within the general mindset of the rules.

There is no answer to the question as posed. The burst fire rules don't function on that domain. Forget miniguns, plenty of small arms also don't fit the numbers in SR(4). That's just how it is in an abstract game. It *does* make sense (do some degree) for the number of bullets not to really matter; some armor won't be pierced by 50 shots if 1 couldn't, after all.

The existing HMGs and autocannons are very powerful already, in-game; as you say, it's not about balance. If you just want to charge people more bullets, increase the price of ammo, but there's no way to reconcile burst fire rules intended for 2-10 shots with 50-100 shots.

… I guess you could play the 'let's pretend' game by saying that the minigun belts are longer and that the listed damage codes are actually for 3 bullets 'per bullet', as it were.

To be honest, its because I enjoy rewriting various RPGs to my liking. Call them giant houserules if you want. And I wanted to see how I could handle crazy fast firing rate in it.

Ah, a complete rewrite. I thought you meant 'within the existing rules'. Hmm. Well, Heavy Gear uses a sort of 'logarithmic' or 'orders of magnitude' system for high rate-of-fire weapons, increasing damage by '+1' while increasing ammo usage by '+100' (for example). Theoretically, you could have something like that which encompassed everything from 2-round bursts to hundreds-rounds full auto.

As I mentioned above, another (probably much less satisfying) option is to reimagine the guns as having 'gas tanks' (like Deus Ex?), so that 'a shot' or volley or burst from a given weapon uses X amount of 'ammo juice'.

Another option is to dispense with SR4's intentional method of burst handling (2x 4P bullets != 2x 4P attacks), and instead treat every bullet as a full hit. It would be… problematic, for lots of reasons.

I did mean that I wanted it to fit within the original rules. This is because I find them to work smoothly for what it's intended to do. However, there are things it doesn't handle too well and I don't like when there are "unhandled exceptions". So I either write a rule for that exception or I make a sufficiently satisfying rule that covers everything.
My real problem with these guns is armor turning damage to stun. It's not true that a gun never leaves an armor unscratched, and I'm certain that firing a gatling gun on anything will destroy it eventually, because it will "nibble" the armor very fast. As per the current rules, that obviously not what happens.

And I'm not sure I like the idea of doing armor degradation.

I do like the logarithmic idea though. I'll have to think about this one.

*shrug*. In some cases, it *is* true. Presumably, the rules intended for small arms to 'bounce off' many vehicles. The example you give doesn't exist, because all the 'gatling guns' *are* huge and will murder everything (no tanks in the book, heh). But, you're right: these things (RoF that high) are simply outside of the domain of the rules, and trying to use them creates the weird results you mention.

For the sake of completeness, that's not exactly how Heavy Gear does it, anyway. For machine guns, it's more like 1 bullet = X damage multiplier (analogous to DV), 10 bullets (10*1) = X+1, 20 = X+2, etc. For rockets, it's 2^n: 1 rocket = X, 2 = X+1, 4 = X+2, etc. But you get the idea.

if a M249 has about 875 rounds per minute average the ak47 and other assault rifles about 600-700 HkMp5 has about 800 and the minigun about 6000 thats a ratio of about 6 say.

The game already recognises heavy weapons as unwieldy under recoil so it doubles all NORMAL recoil numbers.

so if the normal machine guns are rougly same in rpm with other normal weapons arround the 500-1000rpm mark and they use double recoil rules then this abormal monstrocity would use a such a bigger multiplier on recoil then it would not be allowed to be used without being mounted on a platform of some sort (gunnery).

so using 6 as a multiplier you can just use normal rules and use the multiplier to see rounds on target. suppression fire would be 20x6 = 120 bullets.
so using 6 as your magic number you can allow that 6 to be split in 3 ways.
1. increase the standard length of the area by the multiplier OR
2. increas the standard height of the area by the multiploer OR
3. remove dice from the defender's pool equal to the multiplier

so you can have a combination of say
so standard 10m wide x 2m high triangular area of suppression can become
20x4 (using 1w + 1h multiplier leaving you with 4 dice)
and -4DP for anyone in the supressed area.
or if you have a big area to cover use all 6 to get 70mx2m with no DP penalties to the defender.

as for burst? hehe good luck that i would say is a FA only weapon so no burst rules would apply.
Full auto only and use the 6 multiplier for amount of rounds on target.
honestly if you did get peppered with this weapon you have 0% of survival. movies make it seem like you have a chance. i dont think so.
if this gun is shooting you your failure happened ages ago BEFORE you got in the mess you are in.

In my opinion the easiest fix would be to tinker with the '1 extra base damage per bullet' rules in away that veyond a certain number of shots only the dices to hit (or penalty to dodge) goes up. Friging more bullets will mostly chew up the scenery rather than adding damage to the target.

Miniguns cut cars in half. You can cut through concrete walls with them. They are essentially instant death to any person effectively engaged if modeled in any vaguely realistic fashion.

Most SR weapons are modeled poorly. Pistols are rated too high, assault rifles are (in comparison) much too wimpy. MMGs are even worse, HMGs are grossly underpowered, etc.

A simple fix would simply be let them do full bursts and suppressive fire as a simple action.

Here are my House rules on Full Auto Combat, please give comments or suggestions.



Nick's Shadowrun 4th ed. Full Auto Rules.

Firing Full Auto is a Complex Action.
To stop firing on Full Auto is a Free Action

A character that fires on Full Auto on his First Initiative Pass gets a total of 4 Initiative Passes (Second gets 3, and so on) even if Character normally does not possess extra IP's. These extra IP's that character does not normally have, occur last, after everyone else has acted, and the only actions that can be taken are to continue to fire on Full Auto, or to stop firing. Smart Players or NPC's will have already taken cover and be much less likely to get hit.

A Character can fire up to 40 rounds in a Combat Turn for SMGs, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, and
Machine Pistols (10 in each Pass), but only if the Character shoots full auto on his or her First Initiative Pass.

A Character can fire up to 50 rounds in a Combat Turn for LMGs, MMGs, HMGs, and High RoF
SMGs (12 in each Pass), but only if the Character shoots full auto on his or her First Initiative Pass.

A Character can fire up to 100 rounds in a Combat Turn for Miniguns (25 in each Pass), but only if the Character shoots full auto on his or her First Initiative Pass.

1st attack: Roll (# Bullets fired + Firearms DP + Smartlink/Lasersight) each hit adds 1 die to dice pool and total hits equal the max amount of nets hits Attacker can achieve on Damage test. Cannot get more hits then bullets fired.
1st attack: Roll (Firearms + Agility +/- modifiers - uncompensated recoil + hits)

2nd attack: Roll (# Bullets fired + Firearms DP + Smartlink/Lasersight) each hit adds 1 die to dice pool and total hits equal the max amount of nets hits Attacker can achieve on Damage test. Cannot get more hits then bullets fired.
2nd attack: Roll (Firearms + Agility +/- modifiers - uncompensated recoil + hits -2)

3rd attack: Roll (# Bullets fired + Firearms DP + Smartlink/Lasersight) each hit adds 1 die to dice pool and total hits equal the max amount of nets hits Attacker can achieve on Damage test. Cannot get more hits then bullets fired.
3rd attack: Roll (Firearms + Agility +/- modifiers - uncompensated recoil + hits -4)

4th attack: Roll (# Bullets fired + Firearms DP + Smartlink/Lasersight) each hit adds 1 die to dice pool and total hits equal the max amount of nets hits Attacker can achieve on Damage test. Cannot get more hits then bullets fired.
4th attack: Roll (Firearms + Agility +/- modifiers - uncompensated recoil + hits -6)

For Multiple Targets, on attack roll, -2 for each different target, Split Dice Pool if attacking multiple targets in same Initiative Pass, can only attack multiple targets in same Initiative Pass if character is still firing in their Initiative Pass.


Alternate Full Auto Rules
Have PCs/NPCs hits for Damage Resistance Tests occur on a 4, 5, or 6. For those who think rules are too deadly.
For Wide Bursts Roll [# Bullets fired + Firearms Skill + Smartlink/Lasersight -(# up to 9, that becomes negative modifier for targets Defense Test]
For Firing 2 Automatic Weapons at Once Roll [# Bullets fired(up to 20 or 24) + Firearms Skill +
2x (Smartlink/Lasersight)] Then Split [Firearms + Agility +/- modifiers - uncompensated recoil(of both weapons together) + hits (-2 for second Weapon if character does not have Ambidextrous Quality)] Dice Pool
Add Recoil Comp as positive dice pool to first roll to determine how many bullets possibly hit making Full Auto just a little bit more accurate and deadly.

so wait. to simplify combat you add another set of rolls and break the value of cyber, bioware, drugs, and magic just by investing in the cheapest of guns that support full auto mode?
and this House Rule WORKS? As a GM i try to actually simplify my job not add redundant mechanics just because a players wants to buy a minigun.

getting free extra passes is still doable in the current rules. just go suppressive fire. player of IP1 shooting supressive fire doesnt stop firing until he gets to act next. so if anyone with multiple passes is supressed they have to adhere to specific set of action as in the book in order to NOT have to retest against the supression hits and damage.

so using supression fire your IP1 gunner in fact receives a full combat turn of potential to deal damage which is kinda the same BUT BALANCED as if he had as many IP as the highest IP player

I don't agree that HMGs and above are underpowered in Shadowrun. It's just that the curve of DV and defenses isn't smooth.

This sort of thing is exactly how Grognard Capture was born. If you want the most realistic firearms rules, there are tons of wargames that simulate them in intricate detail.
Shadowrun has to make some compromises not just for game balance, but for player accessibility. In order to get certified to teach using a Glock one has to demonstrate that one can fire 5 rounds a second. That means that a non-cybered player, and every NPC, with a decent professional rating in Pistols should get 15 shots per combat round.
There are more examples of that than anyone could possibly cover.

Now there are rules to help integrate spraying that many bullets in the air using cover, fire & maneuver and what-not, but that really takes a lot of folks out of the game who just want to be able to say "I shoot it with my gun." Girlfriends, moms, remedial math students and the like who really enjoy the game, always bring something to the table and are really good at playing a role; they tend to get seriously turned off at the thought of having to learn advanced trig just because you want to shoot more bullets.

Shadowrun is already too rules heavy for most casual players. Heck, we just had our 8th game and I had to remind three of my player that one rolls Agility + Pistols to shoot things. So to call the rules "broken" because they don't accurately simulate how you view real combat seems unfair. Sometimes you have to make an Explosions in Space ruling. It's not something that happens, but it looks cool and Star Trek did it, so it's best just to let it slide.


To get to the mini-gun, when my cousin was in the Army, he said that being behind a machine gun, much less a mini-gun, made you feel like God. In essence, every one you can see, you can kill. I've always felt that to be the best way to handle fully automatic, military grade machine weapons. If they can see you, you are dead. It really ups the necessity of the Infiltration skill and demands tactics and non-linear thinking greater than "I shoot it with my gun" without asking players for homework.

So basically, it's modeled perfectly for Hollywood.

Full Auto is never recommended its far too inaccurate and wastes ammo, but I wanted rules that are a little more realistic when it comes to Rate of Fire for Automatic Weapons, and where every bullet is accounted for. With these rules it's near impossible to hit someone if you have a low firearms skill. Burst Fire and Single Shot are still far more effective.

Actually, that's not a bad idea for an additional rule: You've got soooo many bullets that the shear force of lead can push through otherwise impenetrable barrier-ratings.




At the same time heavy-weapons in general are lacking many of the usual restrictions. I.e. in the Military, only one soldier per squad has the SAW - it's too heavy and unwieldy to outfit every troop with one - that kinda stuff isn't modeled in SR (Nor should it be). Most special-forces troops prefer smaller arms, (AKA carbides and SMGs) for urban missions because of this. The rules-as-written strike a decent balance between the two.

It's really more like they leave you to fend for yourself as far as rulings go rather than actually do anything "decent."




I don't really agree here. Rate of fire doesn't really help you much at all with objects that are nigh invulnerable to what you're attacking them with. Miniguns spew lead at such ridiculous rates because when it comes to hard targets there's a difference between penetration and meaningful damage. For example, you need to fire quite a few rounds to cut a tree in half with a minigun but that's only because you need to damage a large portion of its overall structure, not because any one single round is incapable of piercing/damaging the tree.

Except you don't need to do anything. Just use them as they are. There are just a couple of miniguns in the game anyway, and they're murderous.

they're murderous on weapons, or ona troll with a gyromount.

the 11 recoil is.. painful

It helps if you think of these things as a tool for resolving who lived and who died rather than as a serious attempt at modeling things. Problem is, of course, that's not really what the OP was asking for.

Which is exactly right. It's a dramatic roleplaying game, not a warsim. OP is just having some fun, but it sadly doesn't resolve.

Not completely true. For example, FM 3-06-11 says that a single 7.62mm MG bullet can only penetrate 2" of concrete. But 100 rounds of 7.62mm MG bullets will put a 7 inch diameter hole in an 8" thick reinforced concrete wall.

Yeah, but ultimately we're talking about a matter of degrees here-- I'd honestly say that 2 inches worth of penetration is pretty decent, given that you can easily measure it with the naked eye. In any case, you're not talking about a situation where a single round is so ineffectual that you may as well wait for Mother Nature to try weathering through the material for you.

Indeed. That's not 'bouncing off'. It's 'a good start'.

I didn't say it did. I said you can cut holes a concrete wall, which you can.

BTW, an .50 cal HMG will put a two foot diameter hole in an 18" thick reinforced concrete wall with the same 100 rounds. You still have to cut the rebar to crawl in, but that's an example how the one point difference in SR really doesn't make much sense.

I beg to differ. or should i say my players would prove that wrong 90% of combats. Alot of people still have that holiwood idea with the whole "im the hero i kick ass, watche me grease these NPCs alone" and play it brute force with blinders on. proper tactics and teamwork is allowed by the rules and works wonders just requires bit of practice.

First the slowest in my group is the gun bunny troll with some form of assault rifle. he has multiple for different jobs so take your pick.
he usualy sets up firewatch position and opens up with supression on the area. Imagine a whole triangular area imediately having to roll for damages and be forced to drop prone or find cover. While he may be having 1 IP the street sammy and the face with 3 and 2 passes respectively do either a double pincer enclosure to the flank where chances are you will no longer have to work against cover modifiers.
the supression fire protects the gunner and the enclosing players are on delay action since you can continue to move while delaying action its all fine until someone sticks their neck out and doesnt only have to test against the supression but also potentially getting capped by two flankers.

if you had to fight uneven odds say 3 v 6 its alot better to supress and flank than to just duke it out with burstfire simply because your IP1 gunner is buying himself all those extra passes those cyberred playes have just for the price of 20 bullets.

the other awesome thing our group loves doing and we had to house rule this in SR3 is dropping prone in ranged combat to get the good cover (where range is 20+ meters). so awesome and realistic.

The barrier rules are really a *whole* nother issue, anyway. It's been pointed out many times, but they simply don't take into account more powerful bullets. *shrug*

Also, Did you ever watch the video from wikileaks of the US Army guys in a gunship firing on that journalist and those people? Thinking they were insurgents?

They fired 50 caliber miniguns. I'm sorry you cannot call that ineffective. As for wasting ammo, the Military is all about wasting ammo.

Full Auto suppression fire and wide is very common. Narrow Bursts? That is much more rare.. but it does still happen in close quarters gun fights.

the Barrier rules are broken.
Armor should have a 'hardness' rating like a barrier. But really, you can take an Uzi on full auto with an infinite clip, and you'll never do more than scratch the paint on a tank, or an Armored troop carrier.

Wan't it an Apache firing it's 30 mm chaingun ?

It might well have been.
All I know is that it was a fuckload of bullets down-range.

I thought we were talking about situations where the bullets are too weak/small for a hardened target. I don't think anyone is disputing that lots of bullets (of any kind) are unkind to journalists and bystanders.

I was referring to this post.

Ah, he forgot about vehicle RC. I dig.

and tripods, and shock pads

Yeah, but Whipstitch, the guy you were responding to earlier, was talking about situations where a single round does NO appreciable damage, not situations where a single round does a little bit of damage.

In no-damage situations, firing faster won't help.



-k

Yeah, handling incremental damage is why barriers still have boxes to fill as well as an armor score.

By RAW, you can chew through a wall/barrier....but you have to be targeting the barrier specifically and not trying to shoot through it at a target beyond. (SR4A, pp 166, Destroying Barriers)

Not sure how close to 'realism' it gets (have not used the rule much myself) but you do get 2 DV per bullet used...

Since you can shoot a hole you can walk though in an interior door using a pistol firing a single mag of normal ammo, realistic it ain't. Bullets go right though most doors. They just leave little holes. It takes a lot of less than 1/2 inch holes to make a hole you can walk though.

Well, not exactly "Walk" as I'd describe it, so much as bursting through the weakened structure of what used to be a door and is now called "Swiss Cheese".

As for the military using ammo in insane amounts, ever since the invention and standard issue of the machine gun, that's gone uphill at an amazing rate.

Assault Rifles as standard issue made matters all the worse, as even when Machine Guns were new, Single-Shot Rifles and Bolt-Action Repeaters were the norm for most soldiers.

Of course, there's always the old military maxim: "Bullets are cheap, life is expensive; anybody worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice" which explains the utilization of the Double-Tap, and certainly goes for automatic weapons as well.

PS: When bursting through that door, BTW, you should always scream, "OH YEAH!!!"

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