I want to create a rigger (both drone and jumped in) but I’m torn between an adept ‘hacker type’ and a technomancer ‘drone whisperer’. As far as I can tell there are advantages and disadvantages to both and as this character is for a ‘milspec’ game I want to have a bundle of cash too so points will be spread thin and I’d like the character to be effective…(Would rather not go the pure hacker route as I still haven’t got to grips with the matrix rules properly)?!?

Thoughts so far:
AR Adepts get bonus to skills and with improved reflexes should be ‘fast’ in the meat world too. Not so good jumped in as their magic won’t work (?)…
TMs get machine sprites which make drones better - replace pilot rt with sprite rt (??) and ‘free’ autosofts and no real disadvantages to getting a vehicle control rig(?)

Anything else to consider in choosing between them?

I also need to get my head around drones/sensors and tacnets!

As far as I can tell sensor packages (SR4 p334) for various drones will have full capacity on installed sensors and at 1 capacity per sensor (on average) this means that this will be the number of channels for a tacnet (eg 6 for a med drone) is that right?!?

I put this together to try and fathom standard sensor loads, trying to be as non-specialist as possible. Is this reasonable or is there a RAW table that shows this somewhere? Does the player get to choose this all? Should I choose different sensors as standard?
Micro - Cap 1 - Typical Package: Camera
Handheld/Minidrone - Cap 3 - Typical Package: Lowlight Camera, Microphone
Mounted/Small Drone - Cap 5 - Typical Package: Lowlight & Thermo Camera, Microphone, Laser Range Finder
Medium Drone - Cap 6 - Typical Package: Lowlight & Thermo Camera, Rear Camera, Microphone, Laser Range Finder
Large Drone - Cap 8 - Typical Package: Lowlight & Thermo Camera, Rear Camera, Microphone, Laser Range Finder, 2 cap spare…
Vehicle - Cap 12 - Typical Package: Lowlight, Thermo & Vision Mag Camera, Rear Camera, Microphone, Laser Range Finder, Radar (8 channels as radar is 5 cap...)

Sensor ratings are in the vehicle / drone stats to start so to upgrade I just buy better sensor ratings for the packages listed above? Can a micro drone have a rating 6 camera in it? Are there other restrictions?

Lots of questions here, so thanks in advance for your thoughts/comments and help!

I don't have time to respond properly right now, but just remember that there's Sensor capacity and then there's Sensor Enhancement Capacity. You can cram many more 'channels' in than you appear to have done. The 'standard' loadouts are a little flexible (for example, the HK has ultrasound), and you should definitely change them anyway.

The standard package that comes with a vehicle sensor package is:

Cap 12: Laser Range Finder x2, Motion Sensor x2, Camera x2, Atmosphere Sensor, Radar (pg. 105, Arsenal)
That page also notes that smaller drones (with less Cap) will have a similar loadout, but typically dropping things (like Radar)

All of the sensors are at the rating of the vehicle's Sensor rating. Note that none of the sensors have any modifications (low-light, etc.), even if the vehicle starts with Sensor 6. You can buy additional modifications seperately, or swap out sensors for other ones (buy thermo for the front camera, or replace the atmospheric sensor with another camera). Fortunately, all that's pretty cheap.

Thanks, found the table in Arsenal

...another quick question, do smartlinks work for drones? I know I should really look up sensor targetting but books are at home...

Yes, if you put a smart gun mod on a drone mounted weapon, they get the +2.

It's something I didn't really spend a ton of time doing for your game. Modifying the crap out of all the drones.
I was trying to be nice

Just as well you didn't isn't it

This is not strictly accurate.

For a smartgun system to work, it needs two halves of the system working together
A Smartlink, a vision enhancement mod that can fit on Cameras.
and a smartgun system, which is a both a weapon accessory and a weapon modification.

A smartgun on a drone is not enough to claim the bonus. The drone still needs a smartlink. (check with your GM to see if they'll waive the image link requirement)
Laser Sight accessories, however, are a cheap, decent alternative.



Aria:

If you're interested in tricking out your drones as best as possible, then you'll want to remember the following.

Weapons on your drones can have both Modifications(6 slots each) and Accessories(the usual top/bottom/whatever mounts) at the same time
the 4th Anniversary book, for updated sensor information (cameras are now rated)
The Arsenal errata/Second Printing, which has rules for re-calculating your drones Sensor Rating. If you don't do this you WILL have headaches and be frustrated.
All drones have sensor capacity and signal dependent on their size. (there IS a table in arsenal that shows some default sensors)
The individual sensors within a drone may have their own Accessories. (a rating 6 camera can have flare comp, therms, etc).


This is potentially a huge pain in the ass to stat, and can get expensive very quickly. So, you want to spend your money efficiently.

Sensor rating is good: You roll it for perception tests and its your dice pool to shoot stuff. Sensor 6 is a good goal on your main drones.
Vision Enhancement 3 on your cameras is cheap and good, especially when you consider the rules for Signature(and metahuman's -3).


Regarding Tacnet sensor channels:
Drones have an easier time connecting to a tacnet than other people. They get their Sensor rating in free channels(typically 3, easy to boost to 6), but ALSO get to count modifications and accessories on those sensors, such as Thermographic vision. See unwired 125 for a list of things that count as Sensor Channels. Just remember that drones are not limited to JUST the third category.

Regarding Adepts.

Tech-Adepts can be amazing on the matrix. A good deal of their 'magic' actually applies on the matrix. Improved Skill(gunnery), for example. Enhanced Perception also adds to all perception tests(including astral and matrix perception). Most of the powers that benefit drones are also rather cheap, so you can usually start with all/most ofthem.

I have a good discussion about them over here, that you may wish to read.

Dronomancers(the stream, from unwired) are also amazingly flexible. Between Machine and Tutor sprites, they can whip up profession or technical skills autosofts for almost any occasion. Since they use Intuition for their drain stat, and also for their matrix initiative, they have some potential to make up points by focusing on one mental attribute.
Once you have a handful of Echoes, technomancers come out ahead. The Macro echo, especially, makes them terrifying while working through drones.

Thanks Udoshi, Will try and track down the Arsenal errata then!

You can find it here.

The basic idea is that if you change the sensors within a package, you recalculate the Sensor Rating by averaging the sensors, and rounding up.
Unrated sensors are not counted in the averaging, and recieve a kind of automatic upgrade if the sensor rating goes up.
This is also why its important to use 4th Anniversary sensors - cameras, for example, used to be unrated, which would screw up the math. You can double check it against the master table in the back of arsenal to see the differences.

So a Rt 6 camera can have capicity 6 mods whilst still only taking up one capacity of the sensor package? I think that's what's being said anyway, much like cybereyes getting 'free' slots?!? Means microdrones can contribute channels with their poxy camera anyway (and the +3 bonus)...

It still all seems excessively complex but I guess that's about right for SR

Ok, I've checked and I have the second printing of Arsenal so I've extrapolated the standard sensor packages from the vehicle one:

Micro - Typical Package: Camera (front)
Handheld/Minidrone - Typical Package: Camera (front), Laser Range Finder (front), Microphone
Mounted/Small Drone - Typical Package: 2 Cameras (front and back), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front)
Medium Drone - Typical Package: Atmosphere Sensor, 2 Cameras (front and back), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front)
Large Drone - Typical Package: Atmosphere Sensor, Barometric, 2 Cameras (front and back), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), 2 Motion Sensors (front and back)
Vehicle - Typical Package: Atmosphere Sensor, 2 Cameras (front and back), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), 2 Motion Sensors (front and back), Radar

So only a mini drone can actually hear what's going on around it as standard (they tend to be surveillance orientated anyway) - unless the 'camera' is a standard video with sound (but then why list microphone separately)??

With upgrading stuff I assume you buy a new camera and scrap the old one rather than paying the difference?

Cameras still follow all the usual rules for cameras and vision enhancements, yes. Check the main book for rules on that.

Also, yes, standard cameras DO have sound in shadowrun. I believe its mentioned in the relevant description.

Microphones just do it better.

Cybereyes don't have "free slots." They may contain a certain number of specific vision enhancements depending on how big and invasive they are. Cameras, microphones, and some other sensors work in a similiar manner, except they don't use Capacity to do it. I suppose 'accessory slots' would be a better term for it.

As for upgrading sensors: There are rules in arsenal for removing sensors in a package, and for putting new ones in. (i think its log+hardware, 1 hour, 8 threshold or something?). And yes, you do have to have a new sensor to put in. Presumably, yes, you pay for it.(not the difference).

The reason is that there's Sensor Package capacity, Sensor Enhancement capacity, Cybereye/-ear capacity… Vehicle mod slots, weapon mod slots, weapon accessory mounts, armor mod slots, armor capacity, cyberlimb capacity, commlink mod slots, … I give up.

Yeah, its a pain in the ass to keep track of. Stupidly, this means cybereyes are better than cameras in terms of addons, which makes no sense to me.

Well, sorta. They're different, with lots of overlap, and you have to have rating 4 cybereyes to pack everything in. Cybereyes are a *lot* more expensive, and they cost Essence. If anything, people should be mad that they're *not* better.

So presumably I should be able to pregen a list for each drone/vehicle type to get to sensors Rt6 on the assumption that I'll replace all of them to not screw the averages?!? Might have a go at that when I've got a spare moment (unless anyone has beaten me to it?)...anyone know how DK's excel sheet calculates it - I know it does just not how?!?

I mean, the averages really don't matter. Just use the relevant sensor(s) for any and all applications; there's no good reason to ever use Sensor.

A GM might have you use the vehicle's Sensor attribute if the actual sensor you'd be using has no inherent rating.

I tend to make sure all my vehicles have a max Sensor attribute or as close to it as I can manage, to make things easier in play. One number for all applications.



-k

That's true, though the few sensors without ratings usually aren't major rolls.

Quick, I use my Atmosphere Sensor to shoot the rain clouds!

Dude, this is Shadowrun. Sometimes rainclouds are deadly.







-k

You've got it backwards.

More often than not, putting a camera 6 into your done will RAISE your sensor, not 'screw the averages'.

If you buy a sensor package during character creation, just assume its installed in the vehicle already. Don't bother wasting everyone's time and a ton of die rolls. I mean, you don't have to get the cyberwareware you paid for installed, its just there already.

Also, uh. Atmosphere sensors are rated now. and the max is 3. Fuck you, anniversary edition.

I hate the sensors that are maxed at 3
it's fucking retarted

Yeah, its pretty stupid.

… I really doubt it's worthy of that kind of emotion. What'll you do with a rating 6 weather gauge, anyway?

Some things in Shadowrun have rating ranges that don't max at 6. Some are 2, 3, some are 10, 12… whatever.

Why are you even looking at that sensor, the one that literally does nothing ever?

A) Take Atmosphere Sensor off vehicle.

B) Install sensor in box. Duct tape to vehicle. Sensor by default has wireless so it can link to your PAN.

C) Profit!



-k

Gecko Tape. Never leave home without it.

Ok, I've had a play and come up with the following upgrade chart (to get sensors 6):

Micro - Sensor 6 [surveillance] - Cost 1,100 - Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Vision Enhance 3 (front)

Handheld/Minidrone - Sensor 6 [direct surveillance] - Cost 3,150 - Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Laser Microphone 6

Handheld/Minidrone - Sensor 6 [indirect surveillance] - Cost 2,450 - Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Microphone 6 +Select Sound Filter 3, Audio Enhance 3, Motion Sensor (front)

Mounted/Small Drone - Sensor 6 [direct surveillance] - Cost 3,250 - Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Laser Microphone 6, Directional Microphone, Motion Sensor (front)

Mounted/Small Drone - Sensor 6 [indirect surveillance] - Cost 4,450 - Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Microphone 6 +Select Sound Filter 3, Audio Enhance 3, Motion Sensor (front), UW Radar 4

Mounted/Small Drone - Sensor 6 [combat] - Cost 2,400 - Camera 6+Smartlink+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Camera 6+Lowlight (rear), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front)

Medium Drone - Sensor 6 [direct surveillance] - Cost 3,325 - Atmosphere Sensor 3, Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Laser Microphone 6, Directional Microphone, Motion Sensor (front)

Medium Drone - Sensor 6 [combat] - Cost 2,475 - Atmosphere Sensor 3, Camera 6+Smartlink+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Camera 6+Lowlight (rear), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front)

Large Drone - Sensor 6 [direct surveillance] - Cost 5,325 - Atmosphere Sensor 3, Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Laser Microphone 6, Directional Microphone, Motion Sensor (front), UWB Radar 4

Large Drone - Sensor 6 [combat] - Cost 4,475 - Atmosphere Sensor 3, Camera 6+Smartlink+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Camera 6+Lowlight (rear), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front), UWB Radar 4

Vehicle - Sensor 6 [general] - Cost 3,175 - Atmosphere Sensor 3, Camera 6+Lowlight+Thermo+Magnification+Vision Enhance 3 (front), Camera 6+Lowlight (rear), 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back), Motion Sensor (front and back), Radar 6

This is based on the assumption that most drones/vehicles have sensors 1 or 2. If anyone would care to check my maths that would be great oh, and I kept the atmosphere sensor in without the duct tape to give someone something to mod themselves

The Atmosphere Sensor 3 and UWB 4 will drag the sensor ratings down a point or two.

So they won't be the 6 ratings you put in your list.

But other than that, this looks good!



-k

I'm not sure what rules you're using, but I can tell at a glance that it's wrong. You can't get Sensor 6 (again, assuming you'd want to for some reason) when you're averaging in a 3 and a 4 (3,6,6,-,-,4; in your Large Drone example). And the starting Sensor really shouldn't matter, because you're replacing things, not upgrading them.

Yea, you'd get Sensor 5 with a 3, 4, 6, 6. You'd need another 2 rating 6 sensors in there somewhere, or replacing that UWB 4 with Radar 6 would work.

Personally, I think you should round *down* anyway. Mwa ha.

The unrated ones count as '6' don't they, and that gives a 5.1 something or other average - round up to 6! Of course that might be a slightly optomistic interpretation

Haha, only if optimistic means 'wrong'. The unrated ones count as the average (tricky), even if sneaky (and regrettably RAW) 5.1=6 reasoning is in use. So, that's one more reason to use individual sensors/specific sensor combos in all cases; your RADAR doesn't work better (alone) just for being near a R6 camera, and the camera shouldn't work worse (alone) just for being near a R4 RADAR.

cause I play with a lame GM whose like. Add them up, divide, thats' your sensor total. So if I put a 3 in there, in lowers my sensor totals, and he rounds.

Lame. Still, as I asked: why do you even *have* that sensor?

Unrated sensors aren't counted in the average, and are assumed to act as having a rating equal to the overall Sensor Rating of the vehicle.

No, I get that, I'd ask for a specific sensor roll rather than a general one too but I was hoping to avoid the 'difficult maths' scenario all together Might house rule that all sensors can be bought up to 6, don't see why that'd make a significant difference...!?!?

Well, if you want to follow the RAW, it's 'average things that have numbers, round up'. Arbitrarily altering the Rating limits on things *could* alter game balance, especially with some of the more exotic sensors (UWB Radar, etc.). Certainly it's negligible for the weather 'sensor'.

I don't want to sound like a psycho, but the 'real' solution really is to never use the all-composite Sensor rating. You certainly *can* extend the price lines for some kind of 'averages as if it were 6' rating, if that's better for your group.

I was only trying to make my life easier in the long run by pre genning some stats. As you say, overall sensor rating shouldn't be that significant anyway so I'll keep my 'table' as is for now

Remember, its round up, not round half up.

A sensor rating of 6 with UWB4 is entirely possible.

Aren't microcameras limited to a rating of 1 at the highest, according to the SR4A charts? (Or can you put a camera larger than that on a microdrone to get the sensor 6 rating?)

It's a micro drone, not a micro camera, yes.