Ok, so I was kicking around the idea of a Voodoo Shaman and looking ways to use the possession power without shattering the game. One of the things that seemed logical was a shaman with plenty of sword skills, melee combat is both cool and underpowered, and I logically started looking into have a spirit possess a weapon.

My confusion comes from the (AFB) Elemental Aura ability, because it seems kinda insane. As I understand it, say I had a STR 4 Voodoo fellow with a sword. He's doing 5DP plus net hits. Now he binds a nice little F4 Water elemental with the elemental aura power into possessing his sword. He know gets +4DP from the spirits force, and additional +4DP from Elemental Aura, and the attacks are now Cold Damage which is resisted by half Impact armor. Now he's swinging for 13DP plus net hits, resisted by half impact armor. Which gives him a decent chance to chop a car in half with a couple strokes. It's basically a lightsaber.

I know it's far from the most broken thing you can do with Possession magic but it seems really weird. I'm sure it's come up before, what am I missing?

Nothing. The rules are crazy, see at least one thread by Neraph. Hell, do a search for 'lightsaber'.

On the other hand (and this is in those other threads), there's no particular reason you have to allow the spirit's power to affect the mage's attack. Technically, the power affects the spirit's attacks (and it's now inanimate, ha).

I understand adding the +4DV for the Elemental Aura, but why do you add +4DV from the force of the spirit?

I don't see how you can add the spirits force to the attacks. The elemental aura yes, but not the spirits force. That would reduce the sword to 9P.

The Force of the spirit would add to the Strength of the vessel, but that would add 4/2 = 2 to the DV.

… If the vessel were the one making the attacks. And it's not.

Well, technically I can see a materialization spirit doing this too. Nothing says a spirits form has to be even remotely human looking. A spirits form could be that of say... a katana.

Give the spirit the Natural Weapon and Energy Aura and you would have Force + 4 = DV.

One thing that might keep this sort of thing from working though is: Energy Aura covers the whole weapon, including the grip. How are you avoiding the Energyl Aura damage yourself?

That's true. Your spirit can be a dog, a man, or a (dancing?) sword, and *its* attacks would be the same regardless. I'm not sure if spirits need to have a physical means of locomotion, but whatever.

If it doesn't have a physical means of movement (IE: Legs) it would require having the movement power, in which case it just floats.

I figured. Of course, the sword *can* have legs. Haha.

Is The Force a magic tradition? If not, it should be.

Hrrmmmm... Make it you must. Interested I am.

Obviously it will need to be a possession tradition...hmmmmm

Actually I just cracked open street magic to page 173. Take a look at the "[Element] Aura (Environmental)" spell, yep, pretty much the same as the spirit power with DV = Spell's force.

With that and levitate you can probably pull off a super saiyan .

Spirits can do it, but so can a magician, and its probably more efficient for the magician to do it anyway.

To Community Projects you must go. DamienKnight's Excel chargen sheet you must seek. Jedi house tradition it contains, possession tradition it is. Like what you see, you may.

Mind=Blown

Thank you, sir.

Although, they don't really use spirits, possession, etc., even in the games/novels/etc. Meh, whatever.

Jedi creating his own lightsaber = calling an inhabitation ally spirit
Yoda, Vader, Kenobi = manifesting spirits?

Jedi are mystic ads, of course

I just saying that those are very crude connections. It's a square peg in a round hole.

Yeah it is...

but lightsabers

Why the frown? It doesn't seem like this is really too crazy, and they're not really lightsabers, right? More like magical, flaming swords - so if you don't like too much fantasy in your SR, then maybe that's a problem...

I was just joking around about the previous statement. Basically arguing for the possession tradition on the sole basis it allows the Jedi Tradition to wield makeshift lightsabers.

Four points of clarification:

#1 I'm adding force to the weapon's damage because, under my understanding (still AFB), possession spirits add their force to most of the objects physical stats (vehicles get bonus to bod but not ease of use stuff like Handling). And a damage code is basically the only stat a weapon has listed (I'm sure you could deduce things like Object resistance but the only thing listed in the entry in damage, AP, and reach). I'd like clarification on this.

#2 The reason Elemental Aura is used instead of something like Elemental Attack is that Elemental Aura literally does not require an action, basically anything that touches the spirit takes damage. Even if the spirit isn't able to attack, Elemental aura should zap anything the sword touches, although technically it might work as two different wounds ie 9DP from sword and then 4DP from elemental aura. My question is: if the spirit possess a sword and then I stab that sword into it, the spirit isn't considered to be attacking someone, even though the spirit IS effectively the sword?

#3 As for how I'm gonna hold the thing, didn't think about it, just went "That can't be right" and posted for clarification.

#4 I don't want to play a Jedi, it's just lightsabers are the defining "cut-thru anything" weapons.

I was actually playing around with a jedi adept the other day.

Turns out The Force works better as a Contact. After all, when you need some Favors in a hurry, the Force better be with you.

Under strict rules-fu, it works like this:


Elemental Aura is NOT added to the DV, because the spirit isn't the one making the attacks. (even if it doesn't make sense)
You don't take damage from holding it(you're not Attacking it. Grappling Status is debatable, as is the ability of the spirit to not use it against its mage, since its an Always power).
The damage doesn't go up, because its not a Rating or an Attribute. ( I think)
I'm not sure whether attacks made with a possessed sword gain the Elemental attribute, either.
Lastly, what a possession spirit's Force gets added to is -supposed- to be GM discretion. There comes a time when you should limit it.

Still, its an odd situation, that you need to apply some common sense too. Here's what I'd do
I'd assume that a spirit DOES have control over its powers, and won't have an aura over the handle or something.
You won't be protected by the aura, because people attack you, not the sword (unless disarming it, i guess)
Force isn't added to the weapon's damage.(not an attribute)
But the elemental effect is. DV and AP -half

Learn to read original post, I should.


All items have armor and structure stats, it's just that most are not listed and require some work on the part of player/GM. A sword would be no different. The presence of a spirit possessing the weapon itself should have an effect on its characteristics, including its ability to be wielded, because those things like armor and structure have been bumped up. It may very well become unbalanced or too heavy.

The Elemental Aura is a tricky problem, because there is no evidence that a spirit can control which parts are 'lit up' and which parts are not. At best, one can take from the rules that the spirit can turn the power on or off, completely. The GMs with whom I have played have all decided the aura hurts anything it touches, whether an attack is explicitly initiated or not. If its hot, its hot, cold-cold... electrical-electrical... etc. If this is the case, then the wielder is in trouble. Now, if the wielder were to wear a glove/gauntlet specifically designed to protect against the particular Aura, then he should be alright. The extra damage from the Aura should then still accrue to an attack, even if the attack is being initiated by the wielder, not the possessing spirit.

Here's a related question where a strict interpretation of RAW might produce rediculous results counter to RAI. In addition to to structure stats, all melee weapons also have reach. Would a strict interpretation of the rules as written imply that possessing a sword (reach 1) with a force 5 spirit creates a sword with reach 6? I think it's pretty obvious that reach 6 swords are not what the writers intended. So if reach isn't impacted, why would we assume that other measurable values of the sword like structure rating or DV would be impacted?

the structure value depends on the material of the weapon becoming relevant if one tried to use the Break Weapon Maneuver on the possessed weapon. obviously Force adds to the original structure value and the weapon gets immunity in this case.

I happen to agree with you that a possessed item should have enhanced toughness (i.e. structure rating), but that wasn't my question. Asking specifically about the RAW, where is it stated what ratings/attributes of an unliving object get buffed when the item is possessed. If it's not actually specified, and they only use vague wording like 'the ratings and attributes recieve a bonus equal to force' than would you give boni to everything? Would you approve of a possessed reach 5 knuckle duster?

SM p102
it's a bit vague, but with some reason one gets the intention
increased range would state the weapon gets larger, which it doesn't. it only starts glowing if at all

I'm not trying to break RAI here though, I want a way to model an possessed blade using RAW. Honestly, I'm a little surprised there's this much confusion about it. Demonically possessed weapons are a staple of a lot of modern fantasy (they're tripping over them in the Warhammer universe). My problem is that I'm not sure exactly what the effects should be. Slapping a powerful spirit into the sword should do something, I'm just not sure what. The first attempt I made to model produced something fairly ridiculous so I asked for help.


Ok, that makes sense, so damage wouldn't go up, nor would reach. AP though, I think, is described as a rating. I'm sure I've heard the term "AP rating" a couple times. So damage would not be increased but AP would be?

You can easily 'model' a possessed blade. … Have a spirit possess the blade. You just don't get performance bonuses to DV, reach, etc., unless the GM says so. Ditto for AP: there's no RAW except 'GM decides'.

the weapon becomes dual-natured, so it ignores immunity to normal weapons. i guess

Yeah, but that hardly jives with a lot of fiction on what a spiritually or demonically possessed blade usually does in fiction.

You are using the wrong Power to make a possessed weapon that deals extra damage:
So only if the composite entity of sword+possession/inhabitation spirit makes an attack it gains the extra damage and damage type adjustment, and only if the vessel+spirit are attacked does the attacker suffer the consequences.
The combined entity would however get increased resistance to damage (ItNW, Barrier Rating Increase)

What you want to do is take a Spirit of Man or an ally spirit with the [Element] Aura spell (SM p. 173). Then all the wielder's melee attacks get the benefits. I'm sure most players and GMs will be fine with saying that the Aura is restricted to the sword's blade. The drawback however is that the DV s not increased by Force but by hits of the spell.
If you go the (materializing) ally spirit route you can even ditch the physical weapon. Just give the spirit an additional realistic form of a sword or Monowhip. The coolest thing about this route is that you can get a dangerous weapon past any security check, even through wards (metaplanar shortcut).

Hmm a MystAd idea is forming in my mind.

As interesting as all of this is, Even if you add the force of the spirit to the DV of the weapon, and add the elemental aura to the DV of the weapon, it's still not as powerful as just having the spirit acting on its own IPs and killing enemies that way.

I have two such swords in my game and have taken the following approuch; +Force to DV no, energy aura added to DV yes. The reason I allowed the elemental aura to be added is that the description given says the damage caused by the aura is applicable to individuals attacking the spirit as well as those attacked by the spirit.

"Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the attacker also takes damage from the attack." (Pg. 294 Main book)

It's contact not an attack that triggers the damage caused by the aura

As for being able to use the sword without taking damage from the aura the blade is forged by itself. The hilt is only added after the blade is finished. So the spirit is inhabiting the blade as it is one solid part and not the "sword" as the hilt can be removed.

That make sense?

Anything is fine for a house rule, and it does make sense; the RAW logic isn't right (it literally is only for attacking and being attacked, not touching), but that's not a problem at all.

It's even worse, the sniper who shoots the fire elemental is fried. It only says attacks not melee attacks, so By RAW contact isn't even necessary. Fortunately the specified melee in the description of the similar spell.

The ally spirit I proposed earlier costs at best 10+(8*Force) karma, at worst 12+(8*Force) Karma, if the [Element] Aura spell is unknown to the creator of the spirit formula. It's 2 for the extra form, 5 for the extra skill, and 3 or 5 for the spell, depending on whether the spell is known.

Indeed: RAW is frequently filled with 'typos' like that. Alas.

Personally, I hate Shadowrun having magic swords and really magic items of any kind, including Anchoring foci, but that's just taste.

The magic sword I proposed is horribly inefficient. You will be better off just buying a sustaining Focus for [Element] Aura which you can integrate into either the gloves you wear for swordfighting or the weapon's hilt. Or just zap your enemies with a mana spell.

What about the other foci? Don't you like them either? they are basically magic items with a usage restriction to awakened characters.

Well, a Power focus is an item that's magical, but it's not really a magical item. And you're right: they're only for Awakened characters, and that's the critical difference. They're really only an extension of the mage/adept's powers, not an external crazy item. In the end, even the 'spirits are doing it' end-run around direct enchantments is just fluff (from the outside POV, not the rules POV). LIke I said, it's just personal anyway.

It feels a cheap way out of a seruois design problem when you parallel it with the following situation : a mage fully encased in a Military Armor fireproofed up to rating 6 and casting Fire Aura on himself.

He is encased in a heavy, thick fireproofed armored cover extending from toes to fingertips, not leaving a single square inch of skin exposed, that he can freely remove. But if he punch or kick you and add to it's damage, and any attack that connects with him expose the attacker to Fire damage...

So where is your problem? Even naked, he would not be affected by the spell.

Apart form the MilSpec armor in and of itself, I see no problem there.

As far as I'm concerned, this is an 'active' power. When you strike (regardless of your armor), you (reflexively) put the magic into that strike. When you're hit, you (reflexively) hit back with the magic. This is compatible with a flaming spirit sword that doesn't hurt the wielder… or the wielder's targets. Hehe. Again, the correct thing is to house rule it. Maybe the spirit is told to zap people whenever the mage attacks with it.

My problem is the following : if having a removable fireproof barrier totaly encasing the subject of the effect (the mage) is not enough to prevent the fire aura to affect things on the other side of the barrier, why would a small, removable fireproofed hilt completely protect the wielder from the fire aura of a spirit-possessed blade ?

Magic.

My solution of the "hilt" was more for electricty or cold. I admit fire is a bit more of an issue. Making the user come up with a way to use the sword and not fry himself could be an interesting chance for rp.

It gets crazier if you use the wonky elements. Sound? Metal?! Heh.

Bugs Bunny and the singing sword anyone? Or is that too old of a reference?