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Khairn
I'm planning on running an SR4 game, but want a location other than Seattle, which my players know all too well. I plan to include my own creations and changes to the place, but I'm hoping to find a city that already has a good amount of detail written about it. (edition really isn't that important to me)

So IYHO what is the best official (Canon?)or fan written setting book and why?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Khairn @ Jan 28 2011, 07:33 AM) *
I'm planning on running an SR4 game, but want a location other than Seattle, which my players know all too well. I plan to include my own creations and changes to the place, but I'm hoping to find a city that already has a good amount of detail written about it. (edition really isn't that important to me)

So IYHO what is the best official (Canon?)or fan written setting book and why?


I absolutely LOVE Hong Kong... we have beeen playing Hong Kong for over 3 years now, and it is just amazing... smokin.gif
Fatum
There's a bunch of setting books in the earlier editions, so you should just pick the sprawl you like best - they're all quite different. You can use 6WA to get the general idea of what each of them is like.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Denver is a nice option. Specially with the Shadowrun missions with plenty of information about the city.
Los Angeles if you want a completely pink-mowhawk campaign.
sabs
London is pretty freaking cool.
I hear good things about Berlin, but I think you need the German edition stuff, to really make it shine.

if you're an American.. i recommend thinking about what city you live in. or the Largest serious city near you.

I love Quebec, but honestly, to make it work you need to change the official stuff pretty dramatically so.
Denver has potential.. but the problem with it is Ghostwalker. Officially he's just a big Godzilla, and it would be cooler if he was more.. subtle.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
For the years prior to Hong Kong, we used the GM's custom-created Detroit Metroplex, which was also a lot of fun...
Fatum
QUOTE (sabs @ Jan 28 2011, 05:41 PM) *
Denver has potential.. but the problem with it is Ghostwalker. Officially he's just a big Godzilla, and it would be cooler if he was more.. subtle.

Eh, what. Yeah, he grabbed the reins of government through a direct attack - but nowhere do the books say he hasn't been a subtle politician since then.
Minding the general state of Denver, yeah.
Acme
This may sound like an odd idea, but if you want to make your campaign a little different, you could try Portland. Hear me out.

If you remember, Portland was generally where the Tir housed its non-elven folk so it doesn't have to be all-elven, and the city itself is dealing with the fallout of the Ra Nelle revolution as it transitions (theoretically) to a post-autocratic society, and the political shenanigans since the Star Chamber becoming a major force now means that the Tir has essentially split its capital into two (like Paraguay or South Africa). Combine that with the lifting of Seattle being the Tir's major port of call (which would still have to handle a lot of its business unless they either retrofit Astoria to be a major port of call or heavily dredged out the Columbia to accept larger boats). This means that PDX is a hotspot with the unrest still fermenting in the country as well as the intrigue of Mega interests trying to wheedle more into the country as they meet resistance from home grown corps such as Telestrian. You can still have your bleed into Seattle or access into the intrigue of what the changes in the Tir and the constant upheaval in Cal Free mean for the Northern Crescent region.

You could also use Portland as a transition city, to wean them off of Seattle before you move things to another city.


Of course, that suggestion might be totally because I'm an Oregonian and a little biased. Maybe.


Other than that- I'd also recommend DeeCee.
CanRay
My group has gone to LA a few times, but don't like the idea of the Overt Commercialization of Shadowrunning there. Even if they did get a bonus in the "Kidnapping Goofy" job for having a kick-ass chance scene.

They hated San Diego, but that's because they were in Aztlan, and were expected to be used as blood sacrifices at any time due to reading far too many ShadowPosts.

There's been talk of going to Denver, and I had been playing with the idea of doing a write-up on Winnipeg... But, well, I have many ideas and stuff in my head which won't bloody well come out. (I'm honestly thinking of trepanning some day.).
J. Packer
It really does depend on what you want and your players want. I mean, for the right campaign, drop them into Chicago. Feral Cities lays out some of the more up to date information.

Hong Kong is well defined in Runner Havens as well, and Lagos in Feral Cities again, if you want international.

Me, I live in Denver, so that's where I'm currently GMing. But I grew up in Oregon, so Seattle works out well for me too.

I'd be tempted to put a game on the east coast, but there's not much info in any of the books that I have - certainly not to the level that there is for Seattle or Hong Kong.
FooBot
Manhattan can be cool if you dont mind the whole corp run police state thing
pbangarth
Our group is playing in LA right now, and that is working out well. We are in the outskirts (San Fernando Valley) so the commercialization of runs is not noticeable. Corporate Enclaves has some good material on it.

Seeing where you live, I would suggest trying Toronto. It already is bigger than Seattle is statted to be in SR times, and is only likely to grow bigger, particularly with immigration of Canadians from NAN territory. According to Shadows of North America (p. 175-6), its entertainment industry will be the biggest in the UCAS with LA gone, and is a major industrial and banking centre. It is a major port and transportation hub, is close to a couple of borders and doesn't have LA's pollution.

And of course, any Canadian who doesn't live in Toronto would love the chance to blow up a few things in "the centre of the universe".
sabs
QUOTE (FooBot @ Jan 28 2011, 04:22 PM) *
Manhattan can be cool if you dont mind the whole corp run police state thing


Manhattan is NOT for the low end pink mohawk set. It's effectively super black trenchcoat.


Khairn
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 28 2011, 10:45 AM) *
And of course, any Canadian who doesn't live in Toronto would love the chance to blow up a few things in "the centre of the universe".


Quite true. As everyone knows ... the entire universe revolves around Toronto ... nothing ever actually happens there, but it is the center of the universe. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone from Toronto. Since art imitates life so much, I've turned Toronto into a magical black hole that is sucking everything in. Once you get to the outskirts you can feel the pull, and by the time you reach the city itself, the urge to impale yourself on the worlds largest phallic symbol becomes overwhelming. Imagine the CN Tower decorated by Reavers from Serenity and you get an idea of what I'm talking about. eek.gif

Now getting back on topic ...of the setting books that have already been published (aside from Seattle) which is the best? Ther Germany book looks good, but I haven't read too many positive reviews.
Fatum
QUOTE (Khairn @ Jan 28 2011, 10:08 PM) *
Once you get to the outskirts you can feel the pull, and by the time you reach the city itself, the urge to impale yourself on the worlds largest phallic symbol becomes overwhelming.

But...but...but both Canton Tower and Burj Khalifa are larger phallic symbols!
Khairn
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 28 2011, 02:13 PM) *
But...but...but both Canton Tower and Burj Khalifa are larger phallic symbols!


aaahhh ... I understand your confusion now. You see, if you lived in Toronto (or within its range of insanity) you'd understand that actual "facts" are never used when describing the greatness of the "city at the center of the universe". Hence the worlds "tallest phallic symbol" is correct ... from a certain point of view. Their misguided reliance on outdated or fabricated "facts" or data" is a hold over to when they were an actual thriving part of the country, which is about the same time they used to have an actual hockey team. so don't worry about it. As long as you stay away from the city or have a layover at Pearson Airport for no more than 30 mins ... you should be fine. nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
Toronto is where all the evil and rudeness and greed in Canada is sucked away so that the rest of us get the reputation of being nice and polite and helpful. nyahnyah.gif

In fairness... Wait, I'm from Northern Ontario, I don't have to be fair to Toronto!
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 28 2011, 06:35 AM) *
I absolutely LOVE Hong Kong... we have beeen playing Hong Kong for over 3 years now, and it is just amazing... smokin.gif

I agree with TJ. Hong Kong is amazing. It's probably the best non-Seattle writeup there is.
Khairn
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 28 2011, 04:43 PM) *
Toronto is where all the evil and rudeness and greed in Canada is sucked away so that the rest of us get the reputation of being nice and polite and helpful. nyahnyah.gif

In fairness... Wait, I'm from Northern Ontario, I don't have to be fair to Toronto!


Very good point CanRay. We must always remember, even though those who live "in the city in the center of the universe" often forget, that the borders of Toronto don't extend beyond either those of Ontario or of Canada. They extend just to the edges of the black hole.

And Cain, thanks for yet another vote for Hong Kong. I think I'll take a look at it first.

Are there any good SR novels set in HK?
pbangarth
I don't think Americans have a city of their own they love to hate the way Canadians do Toronto. I wonder if this is a uniquely Canadian thing. Do Brazilians hate, I don't know, Sao Paulo? I'll get to SR stuff again in a moment, but just one more digression.

I was firmly on the 'hate Toronto' bandwagon until my wife dragged me kicking and screaming to live in the city. For me, too, the former experiences were coloured mostly by the airport and traffic through on the highways. Bloody awful. Within two weeks of living there I came to love the city, and for some of the reasons that would make it a great SR city. The 'centre of the universe' label comes in part, I think, because the city grew so fast from its parochial roots that citizens didn't believe in what their eyes were telling them. They scrambled to blow their own horn when all they had to do was what other great cities do... tell the rest to go to hell if they don't like us. That's the kind of attitude that gets people to take a second look, not the "We're a world class city!" shouting. That's the kind of attitude New York has, which is the only other city in the world that is like Toronto. Bigger, wealthier, more of everything, for sure. But the same magnet for the world's cultures, languages, foods, art, hatreds, blood feuds... bunging them all together in ways guaranteed to create and destroy. The difference is, while America celebrates the 'melting pot', Canada celebrates the 'mosaic'.

In another part, the label comes because Toronto does wield economic and political power in Canada, and others are jealous. Give Calgary and Edmonton another generation or two of resource wealth, and they will bask in some of the envy, too.

So this is where SR comes in. Pick out of a hat any opportunity, entertainment, vice, evil, racial-gang, urban structure, heart-string story or corporate stereotype you want and you will find it in Toronto. In 119 languages. Any shadowrun you can do in Seattle in 2070, or LA (Except for the Deep Lacuna), or New York, you can do in Toronto.

And because there is precious little fluff (which I completely understand is a negative for the OP), you can make it up as you go.

Having said all that, I'm having a great time playing a Free Spirit in LA. The opportunities for screwing with the metahumans are innumerable. Including my teammates.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Brazil is a big place, and I don't know if people from the other states like to talk bad about So Paulo ou Rio de Janeiro.
I can tell you for sure, though, that people from the Northeast region (where i live), like to talk bad about paulistas (the people from So Paulo), mostly because they talk bad about us.
The closes thing I can see about Canadians and Toronto is how we like to make fun of argentinans and portuguese.
Fatum
QUOTE (Khairn @ Jan 29 2011, 01:14 AM) *
Are there any good SR novels set in HK?

First ask yourself a question: are there any good SR novels at all? Thus, the answer to both questions becomes apparent.

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 29 2011, 01:31 AM) *
I don't think Americans have a city of their own they love to hate the way Canadians do Toronto. I wonder if this is a uniquely Canadian thing. Do Brazilians hate, I don't know, Sao Paulo? I'll get to SR stuff again in a moment, but just one more digression.

Russia absolutely hates Moscow and Muscovites. We're supposed to be getting a sweeter deal in life - no work, all play, money for nothing and chicks for free.
pbangarth
Sounds like a universal thing, then.
CanRay
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 28 2011, 06:31 PM) *
In another part, the label comes because Toronto does wield economic and political power in Canada, and others are jealous.

No, it's more like Toronto wields it the same way Neil the Ork Barbarian wields his axe, and makes sure that he gets his way no matter what happens to the rest of everyone, period.

After getting stomped on by Toronto just because you can be stomped on a few times... It's not so much jealousy as it is... Well... Irritation? Outrage? Annoyance?
CanRay
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 28 2011, 06:51 PM) *
First ask yourself a question: are there any good SR novels at all? Thus, the answer to both questions becomes apparent.

Nigel Findley's stuff.

2XS, Shadowplay, Lone Wolf, House of the Sun...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 28 2011, 04:02 PM) *
Nigel Findley's stuff.

2XS, Shadowplay, Lone Wolf, House of the Sun...


All good reads in my humble opinion... wobble.gif
Jaid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TQGsrNlj2k

seems pertinent smile.gif
CanRay
These... Are all true.

The black balloons especially. If you put on special sunglasses, you'll see they're actually subliminal advertisements telling people to buy more edible oil products.

And if you think that song was bad, you should see what happened to Angloman (Montreal's Ethnic Minority Superhero) in Toronto!
Whipstitch
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 28 2011, 06:31 PM) *
I don't think Americans have a city of their own they love to hate the way Canadians do Toronto. I wonder if this is a uniquely Canadian thing.


I don't think it's a uniquely Canadian impulse, really, although you guys may be the best single example of the phenomenon. People disparage NYC and LA here in the states quite often, since they're the two most highly populated media centers and thus have the means to trumpet their sense of self-worth all across the globe. Obviously he was on the extreme end of the scale, but the the comedian Bill Hicks had a bit (and later posthumous album) titled Arizona Bay. That's because he claimed to look forward to the day when Los Angeles was swallowed up by the ocean.
CanRay
The funny thing is, Vancouver doesn't get the same abuse, nor Montreal. Oh, sure, we'll make fun of them, but we make fun of everyone, ourselves included.
ravensmuse
Well, if you're from Boston like I am, you're universally supposed to hate New York City. Because they think they're better than everyone else. They aren't. The rat bastards.

I have to comment on the thing about Ghostwalker: he's not "Godzilla running a city". He's a dude that plunked himself down in a city and made it his kingdom. That's how you have to approach the situation. Denver is also one of the most chaotic yet restricted places on the North American continent, and even years later he's still trying to get everything together. I think the real problem with Ghostwalker is that there haven't really been anything written on the grand scale in Denver for awhile; there's not a whole lot in the Missions stuff, and the last published use of Denver was Dragons of the Sixth Age. So.

But again, my opinion, people can disagree with me, I'll rant at them, and everyone else will be wrong unless they agree with me.

nyahnyah.gif

Myself, I think it's criminal that there hasn't been a good write-up on Boston. Sure, there was Target: North America, but that stinks. And the fan-supplement? WTF were they thinking?

Now I'm living in Lexington and I'm seeing the potential for shadow-ops on horses...
CanRay
Hey, horses have always been big business! Horse Rustling used to be a major industry!

As for Denver, well, it's more along the lines of Ghostwalker waking up and going, "HEY! What the drek? There's humans squatting on my property! Well, I guess they can be servants to me... WHO INVITED THOSE BASTARDS IN? OUT YOU GO!" Kicked the Azzies (And their secret overlords) out and took over the rest as is his due. I'm sure he still has the deed to the land somewhere in his pile of tricks from the 4th World or some such to prove he owns the land. nyahnyah.gif
Khairn
Thanks to everyone for all the help. I'm currently leaning towards HK and will definitely check out those books by Nigel Finley.

And for those from Toronto who were offended by my remarks, I'm truly sorry. I was just trying to have a little fun. Besides, knowing that you're from or even like Toronto is the first step in getting yourself cured. So best wishes to you. Its a tough journey but well worth the effort! grinbig.gif
CanRay
And those of you from Toronto who were offended by my remarks, I'm originally from Northern Ontario.

That should say all there is that needs to be said.

Although, I would now like to see a Shadowrun Write-up on Toronto, and run the group in that wretched hive of scum and villainy that is "Little New York".
Stahlseele
"Haambuurch mooine Perl" *sings*
The Hamburg setting is good in my opinion.
Or maybe the Berlin one.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 28 2011, 04:31 PM) *
I don't think Americans have a city of their own they love to hate the way Canadians do Toronto.

...ohh I don't know,I've always hated LA. Been down there on a number of occasions and every time was so glad to leave.

As to hometown, I live in Portland. Running in the Tir can be a B***h! (at least prior to the crash it was). I did however write up Milwaukee (my previous home) and Madison back in the SR3 days. S-K had a major presence in Milwaukee and the city was also home to two member corps of my Olympus Group consortium - Marathon Aerotek and I-Motive.

For an established setting, I heartily second London. it can be quite challenging for a group runners as (at least in the last edition) the populace is effectively disarmed and magic is tightly restricted. Even though it is out of date. the London Sorucebook still has a lot of nice fluff about the basic social structure in the UK that can come in handy.
Grinder
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 29 2011, 07:47 PM) *
"Haambuurch mooine Perl" *sings*
The Hamburg setting is good in my opinion.
Or maybe the Berlin one.


How very helpful to the OP (who's not from Germany, as it seems):

QUOTE (Khairn @ Jan 28 2011, 03:33 PM) *
I plan to include my own creations and changes to the place, but I'm hoping to find a city that already has a good amount of detail written about it. (edition really isn't that important to me)


Fatum
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 31 2011, 12:01 PM) *
How very helpful to the OP (who's not from Germany, as it seems):

Right. Cause only Germans read German, and only Americans use Seattle as their setting.
Grinder
Dude, how many non-native german speakers are on this board?
Mardrax
A bunch, I'm sure. Either way the OP hasn't mentioned a language issue in response to Sabs mentioning the German edition books on the previous page. and Stahl was answering him. Can we cut the passive aggression now and actually answer that same question?

On subject, I can really affirm both Hong Kong and London. Canon for both has really interested me. Most of my playing been focussed on the UNL so far though, so I haven't had much of a chance to playtest them. I can say that even though most European countries haven't had much in the way of write-ups, they tend to make for pretty interesting settings. In between Swiss (Zurich, anyone?), Germany (hotbed of AA activity and home of S-K), Europort (heavy corp presence, in the middle of what basically constitutes a biohazard zone) and Italy (balkanisation to countries not much bigger than most metroplexes, with actual desecularisation) mainland Europe really has a lot of of potential to offer if you're looking for somewhere to have some room for winging things.
If you want very thoroughly worked out settings though, and lack German language skills, it's not somewhere to go.
PiXeL01
Burning Bright by Tom Dowd to add to the above list
Fatum
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 31 2011, 02:49 PM) *
Dude, how many non-native german speakers are on this board?

At least one - my German is rusty, but with a good dictionary I manage to read Pegasus books (and hate Germans for having SR so much better).
If I am able to do that, why wouldn't anyone else?
After all, there's a bunch of non-native English speakers here, and yet that has never been a problem when discussing books or choosing settings.
CanRay
My German came from WWII movies made in Hollywood.

I'm pretty sure it's about as accurate as the usage of firearms and the explodability of automobiles.
Grinder
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jan 31 2011, 02:29 PM) *
At least one - my German is rusty, but with a good dictionary I manage to read Pegasus books (and hate Germans for having SR so much better).
If I am able to do that, why wouldn't anyone else?
After all, there's a bunch of non-native English speakers here, and yet that has never been a problem when discussing books or choosing settings.


Yeah. Whatever.
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