So as I was wondering what game system to run my next game in and what kept yanking me towards SR was that when contemplating other systems I keep worrying about "game balance", and what I realized was that I had increasingly been just letting that worry go in regards to SR.

Thinking about it a moment, I think this is about the "worlds" of SR.

In most every other game (and bad SR games), there may be all sorts of builds and classes, but fundamentally they are just different ways of doing the same thing, destroying whoever or whatever is between your characters and where they want to go. In this way, having one player substantialy better at it can be a big problem, and it's also easy for players to get board as they don't really get spotlight time.

In SR there are the seperate worlds of the "meat" world, the Matrix, and the Astral. Additionally there can be less literal worlds in the form of social skills/footwork, vehicle chases, infiltration stealth.

I'd like to further empasise that, and so I'm looking for advice in the form of how to best bring out the different worlds, and how to keep other players interested and engaged while other players are in the spotlight.

So far I suppose I've achieved this by:

-Emphasisng communications. Usually a teams first fixer will check and see what they have for commo, and if everybody isn't well set up for soemthing along the lines of encrypted subvocalization at a minmum, the fixer will chide them a bit about needing to operate as a team and get them what they need out of their cut of their first run. (or if they're a bit more prideful I might just, as the GM, require they get it during chargen). This means players can be RPing and giving advice even if just one of them is doing the talking. Letting the others use remote feeds to make their own perception checks and such also keeps them engaged.

-Put pressure on the physical world. If the players can achieve their goals by a mindless assault I find that's often what they'll do. The other "worlds" pop out naturally when that doesn't work well. I primarily do this via adding in astral security (layered wards are realtively cheap these days, and background counts should be fairly common in a lot of the places runners go), and reinforcements (once the players are shooting up mooks, the management is on the phone screaming for backup. The speed of spirits and airborn drones means they can easily get to the scene in time to make a difference even given the limited time of SR combat turns if the players started off shooting, as opposed to just gunning their way out of the last stretch of a run.

What do you guys do? Do you worry about game balance? Do you encourage players to avoid taking characters that are too similar?

No, I do not worry about game balance. I play with mature gamers (cheers, guys!) who know how to make their characters effective, and are good enough pals to let others have their share of limelight.
I do encourage players to avoid similar characters by putting before them the challenges diverse enough (hell, at least I hope so) that many different types of talents are needed, and so many character types are necessary in the team.

I don't worry about too much either. I basically work with my players to get an idea of the type of game THEY want to play. Based on that, we work out what kind of skillsets that would be needed by a team, both to be effective and have fun. This usually gets every player skilled with a firearm (although occasionally someone wants to be different and go melee) and then we part out the rest of the skillsets we talked about: face, matrix, magic, vehicle. There's usually enough to go around to make everyone happy with their character.

If there are gaps, e.g. no one wants to do matrix, then I don't focus on that in the game. Maybe an NPC hacker helps out from time to time.

Then we just play and, like Fatum, I have mature gamers that share the limelight. If someone is losing out, I work them back in. If we find that some part of the character sucks, we try to fix it or focus differently in the game.

When you have good players willing to change for the fun of playing a game and a GM that is willing to switch things out to benefit the player's fun, then game balance just happens...

Actually, there's a couple of good articles on the topic, and a good book - Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering by Robin Laws. Of course, neither have anything that wouldn't let you say "hey, as if it wasn't obvious" or "as if I don't know that already", but they are nice to put things in perspective.

Well that's why I posted this in the SR forum. When someone is writing within the scope of all games than you have to be vague. Here you can say things that are quite specific like "I like to keep rigger centric car chases interesting by making it so its best if a hacker is active during the chase, they'd do well to have a mage scanning for a virtual tail, and the sammi can shoot out the window".

This is just a specific application of a general rule. Once you have the rule down, the exact way you implement it should be obvious, don't you think?

It's pretty much inevitable that in a party with different roles, sometimes people will have to wait on each other. The thief in D&D sneaking ahead, the hacker, mage, face etc. in SR. This doesn't really have to be bad, if you can figure out certain things:

1) It shouldn't take too long - even though whatever player A is doing is pretty important to the story, if it's just him doing it, then it shouldn't take more than say, 20 minutes. At most. Ideally, it takes 5-10 minutes.

2) Players respect each others' solo excursions: they keep quiet and don't distract the GM, so that the whole solo excursion can actually get resolved quickly enough.

3) The solo excursion should be interesting for the third-party onlookers as well. They're not there IC, but the other players are behind the fourth wall just like in a theater. Sometimes the GM should explain to them what the mission is about; they're an audience too, and they can enjoy it better if they understand what the mission is about. Usually they should be hoping the solo player is successful.

4) There'll be scenes that are best not put on the "main screen": the rigger updating his vehicles with stuff that doesn't really matter to this mission, the mage doing some enchanting. If it isn't relevant to the mission at hand, and not entertaining for the other players to watch, then it shouldn't be done during the game session, but afterwards with the GM privately.

5) In many cases, players whose PCs aren't currently in the scene can be recruited to play NPCs, both in combat and in "Face situations". This keeps the players busy, helps the GM multitask (especially when multiple NPCs have to talk to each other), and it also means NPCs will become more varied, because they're played by different players instead of always the GM.

I can never do (1); even with 4e rules hacking always takes so long. D:
Same with BE, actually: if it's only the shadow going in, even with the mage and the hacker providing back up, it takes more than 10 minutes, and the sammy has nothing to do all the while. Frankly, I have no ideas how to deal with that - well, I do one-on-one sessions for hacks and other single-character quests, but still, my players often have to wait for rather long times.

They can also be present there IC. A hacker is hacking? He's got a hologram projection of what he's doing before him. A BE specialist is on a mission, or a sammy is looking for a fight? The rest of the team gets their sensor feeds (unless there's a chance to be intercepted). Etc.

Is there a reason not to do that off-screen?

Wow. Just... wow. That's an idea I'm going to think over.

Also, in what comes to balance issues. Come to think of it, Shadowrun is one of the most collaborative games around - sure, the characters might very well have their own agendas, but their abilities are too unique and narrow to work alone, and they can't replace each other, at least not fully.
Unlike certain game systems, where a full caster can do anything everyone else in the party can, and some more.

One of the nice things about modern to futuristic games is indeed that intra-party communication can go on when a character is on a solo mission. True "radio silence" missions should be rare, extra-difficult missions that have the entire party sweating it for the player.
Make sure you're well-versed in teamwork rules; a BE specialist can certainly use the other PCs talking him through obstacles, and everyone feels somehow involved.

Pure Sammies are difficult in that regard, because they tend to be left out more than any other character. This is maybe best fixed by encouraging the Sammy to take up a couple of side-skills. After all, pure combat Sammies are rare in fiction, they tend to have some secondary skill, like basic hacking, stealth or Face skills. Or perhaps good observation skills; he could accompany the Face as a bodyguard. Sometimes he's better at a niche task than the niche specialist.
Consider the Ork Sam and the Elf Face. When dealing with an Ork gang, the Sam might have a much easier time getting taken seriously and getting cooperation.

Anyway, hacking is indeed a problem. I've heard pre-4th ed rules were problematic, but 4th ed still is. I don't have a solution for it that I like myself, and I really wish I did, because hacking should be cool and a well-integrated part of the game that people like to use.

As for why boring stuff often gets done on-screen: it tends to just happen. It's not like the player wants to bore others, but he (and the GM) might not have realized that a particular thing isn't good for on-screen. When you notice, just say "we'll sort that out later (over email, perhaps), I want to get back to the main course for now".

Well, I used to have a pure sammy in the group (melee adept to the max, his pretty much only other skill was Intimidation, and even that with mage's buffs). It was... problematic.

In 4e, a hacker's going through a single host. In 3e, he had to hack a whole network.
In what comes to solutions, of course hacking can be done OOC: roll this and that, you're inside, declare your actions, roll that and this, okay, you're done. Proceed with the game.
I used to play as a hacker with a GM using that approach, I hated it with every vibe of my soul. I just hope my players are at least having fun watching the hacker hack :\

Well, we play over IRC, so the worst case for us would be "have the bot roll an extended test; ok, it takes you that much hours to mod what you want. Now back to the game".
I still prefer to describe things IC when I get the chance.

I think in the future I'll veto Pure Sam builds, but in a roundabout manner. I'll plan a 1:1 session with the player, where I run the character through a simple scenario, which he'll find very difficult. Preferably the scenario includes some How To Survive Everyday Life moments. The point is to demonstrate that A) he's way better at fighting than he needs to be, and B) not nearly as good at everything that comes before and after a fight.

Then I'll help him redesign his character so that he has a more useful skillset. Like at least two of the following: A) basic social skills B) basic stealth/B&E skills C) basic hacking skills D) basic investigation skills E) bodyguard/perception skills. He's now capable of doing certain missions solo and doing legwork of some sort.

Example: he can now bodyguard the Face, and this gives the Face a better negotiating position. The Sammy will be much better at spotting ambushes than the Face, too. And while everyone is paying attention to the Face, he's had time to observe everyone's weapons and general level of military readiness.

Example: he has sufficient social skills to negotiate with dangerous, violent people. The Face might be talking him through on the commlink, but the gangsters won't take that elf pansy seriously if the Face showed up himself. The Sammy can armwrestle and win respect.

Example: he can hide well enough to mug someone and take their commlink, then perform the hands-on activities required to give the remote hacker access. In a dangerous area that the weakling hacker doesn't dare enter.

Example: he can stakeout the target location and analyze troop movements, security configuration etcetera. Afterwards he can give an expert opinion to the team on how to deal with it. (Tactics/Security knowledges, stealth and Perception skills)

Example: while the rest of the team holds the fort, he can sneak ahead and knock out the security guards before they can raise the alarm. Sneaking ahead with the whole team would certainly attack attention.

I think the 4th ed matrix system is a bit dull - there's sculpting, but everyone knows it's just decoration, and it doesn't really impress because it makes no real difference for how hard things are. Probing for an entryway takes a lot of dicerolls, but the extended see-how-long-it-takes system is only interesting under real time pressure. If you want to hack a big installation with lots of nodes and subsystems, the handling of dicerolls and hacking takes forever.

I like the concept of a "network dungeon crawl". You move from node to node, searching for a way in, hide from programs that patrol the network by taking a different route, and look for a route to the system you really wanna reach. Meanwhile you pass through all manner of potentially interesting places. Hacking on a single-node "stage" is uninteresting to me because the space is essentially devoid of features that matter. It's like having combat in an open flat field where every combatant is adjacent to each other; tactically it's a bit too simple.

Sculpting isn't bad per se; it just doesn't replace actual "terrain features" and real different choices in cybercombat.

3 things that would make Matrix stuff cooler.

1) Sculpting/Reality Filters set a proper stage.
2) If cybercombat let your meat skills work, and what Hackers did/had were cheat codes. (Neo vs Trinity vs Agent Smith vs Schlub Cop)
3) If bringing the rest of the team with you in the matrix was potentially useful.

They talk about Reality Filters, and the bonus a reality filter gives you if your fitler override theirs. But it never mentions what your reality filter does for you in your home node.

If Reality Filters affected your senses, limited your movement, etc.. so that unless you managed to hack your way passed the Reality System on the node, you were limited to what you could do (like say New Caprica). That would be cool.

As it is now, it's "roll a fuckload of dice" yawn.

I want there to be meaning to my choice of virtual representation.
But then, I want there to be as much variety in Attack Programs, as there are in weapons for sams.

Taking the rest of the team with you into the matrix is about as useful for a hacker, as it is for the sammy to bring the face into combat. Or should be, if teammates take at least a few points in hacking/computer.Make of that what you will.

They can easily help take the load off a hacker some, and make his job just a little easier.
Just as I'm probably not taking the face into melee with a cybered up troll though, I'm probably not taking him into a high sec, black IC running node.

On the whole though: agreed. Matrix turns meh fast.

Yeah, turning hacking into a mini-game is probably a good end result, but you may run into a hacker player that doesn't like his character being dumbed down into a mini-game. There is certainly an issue in balance, as you could easily spend 15-20 minutes hacking around while in the meat world, 18 second transpired. I mean, its pretty much a joke asking your table, "What are you doing to do while the hacker is in the matrix?"

One suggestion I had in another thread was to make the matrix into a 3D overlay on top of the meat world. So while the hacker could travel to any point in the matrix, similar to a mage with astral projection, the majority of the time the hacker would just need to be there with the group and see what the group is doing, just with a different filter on, a matrix filter. Then, the hacking mini-game isn't so much a slap in the face. The runners come up to a locked door, so the hacker switches to VR (or just stays AR) and pops the lock open. They get to a computer or see a guard with a commlink, then right there, he does a quick hack and his business.

What this does is let everyone act together, instead of putting the hacker in his own world at the beginning of a mission, and forces him to spend the next 30 minutes getting all the hacking infiltration out of the way. By tying it physically to the meat world, the hacker can still hack, but in shorter bursts, which will likely let the game move smoother.

We have the same problem with a mage doing astral recon, but the same thing holds true, if you let it be a burst of information and then get back to the meat and move onto the thing. Then, the only time where you really stop all the action is for combat, and I rarely hear any complaints during combat. The mage has spells (or guns) and the hacker, in most games, usually has good gun skills as well.

Current hacking is all about just having ginormous dice pools. This is partially because there's very little "terrain"; there's no cover and no range. No way to compensate with tactics what you lack in sheer power.

It'd be nice if you had those things, and if a teammate with computer skills in the 2-3 range and some mind-boosting drugs could help you in a meaningful manner.

Does the current system prevent the GM from including these parameters and making teamwork effective?

no, you can teamwork almost any test. players tend to forget about it.
in this case: let's say the Face wants to be a secondary hacker at some time and has Cracking 1 and commlink stats 4. with VR that's 7 dice, 2-3 successes, which the Hacker can use as extra dice for his probing.

this works dramatically well for such things as Shadowing with one lead shadow and the others assisting as seen in many spy and police movies.

Yes. Unless we're talking a system a hacker can hack with his eyes closed and his arms tied behind his back, you need high skills and high-rating programs to stand a chance against active IC (and to have a chance of not attracting their attention to begin with). And that means several dozens of thousands nuyen of equipment and programs. If not, you're more of a chore than help.
Actually, it's pretty much the same with RL, it's just that you can pop some Cram and not be useless there.

EDIT: Well, if only for probing, may be. He still has a higher chance to glitch.

Now this is a big if, but if you can get it to work at your table, I'd say that bringing the rest of your team into a node would work. They could help, as mentioned above, with teamwork tests and if IC attack, they could play the role of digital shields eating up attacks by the IC and buying the hacker some time. And especially if they are in AR, the worst that is going to happen is their link gets crashed. No biggie there.

But, I've experienced that players that don't make matrix characters really have no desire to do anything in the matrix. Not even to tag along, so it would be most important to get them into that type of mindset early on. Get them wanting to be in the matrix with the hacker...

It tends to take a special kind of player to be interested much.
IC doesn't necessarily have to be a problem though. If the hacker sets his team up some legal accounts, they can get in without a hitch, and do whatever things a regular security user could. This can take some load off the hacker's back, so that he doesn't have to do all the normal computer stuff and keep to his niche of actually exploiting the system. When drek hits the fan, he's the one who's going to be noticed, while the others can finish up leeching whatever they want, or helping him out in cybercombat.
The question of wether this works on really high end systems still, is up to the GM entirely, of course, and will depend mostly on how creating of new accounts is handled. If a spider gets automatically notified in an obvious way, it's a no go. Still, it's an avenue to consider, I'd think.

Or they're gonna get traced, their links hacked and bugged, and one day the whole team is going to wake up dead.
Wake up dead I tell you!

Regarding the Sams, I pretty much require the entire team to have some stealth skills so they have some ability to operate as a unit in that manner.

I strongly encourage the sams to load up on extra senses type stuff and a solid perception. The stuff is really pretty cheap. This allows them to do what I find they enjoy, going along and "backing up" other players. They like being popular with the team when they're off doing their stuff, and even if they aren't doing so much, they're generally getting a steady stream of info from the surroundings that they can pass on.


As for hacking, I don't mind the simplicity level at all. Now, I think there are times that hacking should really take center stage, and than I'll get all into the sculpting and whatnot. Otherwise I think hacking should merge with the pace of what other people are doing, and generally be fast. Often I'll get through hacking in well under a minute (and if it's a combat ish situation it's just what the hacker is doing on their turn).

The key to what makes hacking fun in those cases isn't what the node looks like, is thinking of clever ways to use it. And that's what the "everythings wired" world of 4th really delivers for hacking, as opposed to the quite limited role of previous deckers.

So I suppose with hacking I'm usually shooting for fast and frequent, with some special stuff in between.