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Apathy
1. Think I remember something about troll-sized weapons having a cost = 1.5 times the base price to enlarge grips, etc. Does this count for all weapons (ranged and melee)? I would think it would, but wanna make sure.

2. If he's dikoting a weapon, would you assume the larger size associated with the troll would correspond to a similar increase in dikoting cost?

3. If I recall, the standard min strength on a Ranger X bow was 4 (is this right?). If the character wanted a drastically different strength (Troll with strength 11), how much customization (additional cost) do you think that'd take? My initial call was to more than double the cost, but I want to be fair about it. This is in addition to the 1.5 mulitplier for using a troll-sized weapon (bow's got to be damn big to accomodate those long troll arms.)
A Clockwork Lime
1. Trolls have to pay +25% to the cost of any equipment that has to be tailored to their size (such as most weapons, armors, vehicles, and lifestyles). It's mentioned in the beginning of the Gear chapter of the SR3 core rules.

2. Yes, unless the troll doesn't mind looking like a twit by having what looks like a tiny weapon on a huge hilt.

3. It doesn't require special customization, oddly enough, beyond the base +25% for the troll's size. The Ranger is an insane weapon in the hands of any equally insanely strong character.
TheScamp
QUOTE
2. If he's dikoting a weapon, would you assume the larger size associated with the troll would correspond to a similar increase in dikoting cost?

I would say no, as the blade of the weapon is what's being dikoted; any size increase would be in the handle/grip/hilt department, and thus have a negligable effect on the dikoting process. If you are increasing the size of the weapon overall as Clockwork suggested, then that should also change the base damage statistics of the weapon itself. A troll-proportioned katana should have a greater damage potential than a regular sized one.
broho_pcp
I don't see how making a weapon bigger would make it sharper.

The weapon does more damage because the troll is stronger, if it was larger the only thing I see changing is that it might have a "minimum strength 4 to use" or something like that.
TheScamp
QUOTE
I don't see how making a weapon bigger would make it sharper.

Swords don't do more damage than knives because they're sharper.
Kagetenshi
And straight razors are far sharper than any sword you'll find. Should they do more damage?

A troll-scale katana would be a no-dachi, which has its own rules and a decidedly higher damage code.

~J
Moon-Hawk
I totally agree, although I want to point out one thing...
A no-dachi is a two-handed weapon, so when a troll uses a two handed melee weapon in one hand they take a +1 to their TN. This is offset by the additional reach that such a weapon has over a katana.
I had a troll use one of these, and since he was so huge I let him use edged weapons, even though it's listed as a polarm for a human.
(for the record, I think listing large, two handed swords as polearms is appropriate, the fighting style is more similar) But for a troll, he can use it like a regular sword.
Fahr
A troll sized Bow would need to be biggger regardless of strength, mainly because a Compund bow like the ranger X has a very specific draw length (ex: my PSE II at home has a draw length of 28" ) making a bow a troll could fire would mean increasing that draw length considerably.
for low poundage bows (50 is minimum for hunting in texas) it would mean a lighter bow overall with large lengths, for a troll with str 11 it would mean a huge draw weight... I figure I have a STR 4 (I am stronger than most of my freinds, but not all of them) So I figure my 65# compund would be a good equivelant to a ranger X set up for strength 4, my stronger freinds could likely pull a 75-80 pound draw weight, making a Str 5 bow a 15 pound increase... if str is linear (probably not) that would make a str 11 bow have a draw weight of (65 + (7*15)) 170 pounds.

for a troll that would likely have a draw length of close to 55-60 inches.. that would make for one huge bow. probably 80+ inches tall. with arrows that were 55-60 inches long too...

-Mike R.

edit: darn you non-ergonomic keyboard!!! (missed a dash)
Kagetenshi
As cool as a 5560 inch arrow would be, I'm assuming you missed a dash wink.gif

~J
Shadow
At 5 feet long it is no longer an arrow, it's a ballistic missile!
Kagetenshi
5560 inches isn't five feet, it's just shy of 464 feet.

I'd love to see the bow that would fire that thing...

Edit: oh, you were talking about the actual arrows. Well, given that normal-sized people would shoot arrows up to three to three and a half feet, I'd say five feet is far from unreasonable for a Troll.

~J
nezumi
So whats the damage code for a weapon big enough that the troll can only use it two handed? Instead of a polearm, is it a polewholefriggintorso?
Apathy
So, the cost for troll-sizing melee weapons is +25%, not +50%, because all that's being adjusted is the handle.

Since troll-sizing doesn't increase the blade size, dikoting costs won't go up. (Technically, the tang gets dikoted too, which would mean a slight increase in overall area, but that's probably a nit-pick and not worth calculating.)

Troll-sizing the bow is a more substantial change because it effects the draw length, but I'm not too ridiculous just using the same +25% modifier for size adjustment.

Did I remember correctly? Is the Ranger X Strength min = 4? If you wanted to make that strength min higher, I'd guess that you'd need stronger materials and an enhanced pulley system. How much would those adjustments modify the overall cost?
Kagetenshi
Well, the cost given in the book is STR Min*¥120...

It also gives the minimum STR min as 2, not 4.

~J
Cain
QUOTE
Did I remember correctly? Is the Ranger X Strength min = 4?

Sorta. The str min for the Ranger-X series is whatever you set it to; you can have a bow with Str Min of 25 if you want it.

With that in mind, I'd say that the Str min includes an increase in draw length; primarily it'll just be increased arm rigidity, but it'd have to include some draw improvements.
Tziluthi
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 19 2004, 06:16 PM)
A troll-scale katana would be a no-dachi, which has its own rules and a decidedly higher damage code.

So what would be a troll scale no-dachi?

Also, do you think there is a case for applying that +25% cost multiplier to the cost of some cyberware, such as, say, muscle replacement?
A Clockwork Lime
I think people are just letting reality slip in a bit too much.

Logically, if it were only the grip being altered, trolls should get a bonus to the Concealment of their weapons... which they don't. I can't think of any art that supports it just being the grips, either; trolls are seeing carrying weapons sized appropriately for their own size.

So what if no extra damage is being done? It's an image thing. I'd rather suspend my disbelief so that a troll walks around with a knife that looks like a knife in his hands rather than a tiny sliver of metal on a hilt ten times bigger than the blade. But maybe that's just me.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Tziluthi)
So what would be a troll scale no-dachi?

A sharpened telephone pole.

QUOTE
Also, do you think there is a case for applying that +25% cost multiplier to the cost of some cyberware, such as, say, muscle replacement?


I would apply it to all structural cyberware and maybe pervasive cyberware too (skillwires, wired reflexes, that sort of thing).

~J
TheScamp
QUOTE
Logically, if it were only the grip being altered, trolls should get a bonus to the Concealment of their weapons... which they don't.

Logically, trolls should get an across the board concealment bonus , but they don't.

QUOTE
I can't think of any art that supports it just being the grips, either; trolls are seeing carrying weapons sized appropriately for their own size.

If only the art had accompanying game stats.

QUOTE
So what if no extra damage is being done? It's an image thing. I'd rather suspend my disbelief so that a troll walks around with a knife that looks like a knife in his hands rather than a tiny sliver of metal on a hilt ten times bigger than the blade. But maybe that's just me.

But something that would look like a knife in a troll's hands would be a smallish sword or a machete; it doesn't make any sense to me not to give it the appropriate stats. But hey, to each his own.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (TheScamp)
QUOTE
Logically, if it were only the grip being altered, trolls should get a bonus to the Concealment of their weapons... which they don't.

Logically, trolls should get an across the board concealment bonus , but they don't.

Logically, they should also get an across the board penalty to Stealth.

~J
TheScamp
And waaay bigger toilets.
A Clockwork Lime
Like I said, I'd rather suspend my disbelief by having trolls have proporitionally-sized weapons that, in all other ways, introduce fewer logic problems into the game vs. forcing them to use silly looking weapons that make little sense when it comes to relative Concealability and all that hubalabub.

If a human picks up that troll's knife and starts using it, it's a lot easier for me to just say that while the blade may look like a machete, the grip makes it awkward enough so that the damage inflicted with it is still equivalent to that of a knife whether or not we're using the optional rules in CC for using troll weapons.

And yes, I use the same philosophy with firearm, too. That +25% increase goes into making the firearm look proportionally larger even if the ammunition it shoots is exactly the same as its smaller cousin.
TheScamp
And like I said, to each his own. smile.gif
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