Ok, I'm not sure I understand the damage mechanics behind creating and using explosives.

According to SR4, "An explosive’s Damage Value is calculated as (modified) rating x the square root of the kilograms used."

Aside from the weird nature of having to have the square-freakin'-root of anything in a game, let's take a small example.

From Arsenal, Dynamite is considered a Rating 3 explosive with 4 sticks of dynamite being equal to one kilo.

So if we do the math, a kilo of dynamite will do a whopping...3P. Lest we forget the blast radius, 4 sticks of dynamite have a blast radius of of 2 meters before all you do is ruin someone's hairstyle.

Am I reading this wrong, failing at the math? 4 sticks of dynamite do less damage than a hold-out pistol?

For reference, THIS is what ONE stick of dynamite going off looks like.

What strength dynamite? (Yes, they come in strengths or grades or some other such thing. I wasn't allowed to play with dynamite as a child, which makes me weird for my hometown.).

Dynamite is Rating 3, across the board as per Arsenal. Only Foam and Plastic explosives come in any wide variety of ratings.

Some more fun math, a Rating 15 lump of Plastic explosives weighing 1 kilo gives you a damage of 15P.

1,500 nuyen for 15P. A High Explosive grenade is 45 nuyen and gives you 10P.

Why on EARTH would you invest time and energy into explosives when a six pack of HE grenades will give you the same (or better) result for a fraction of the cost and next to zero skill investment?

Is there Shrapnel? Without Shrapnel the explosion might burn someone close or knock them on their ass, but a bullet goes through you. Two meters from that blast and it will just ruffle their hair without something coming out, and even if there is, armor.

There are no rules for adding shrapnel to explosives.

Additionally, the shockwave of a kilo of dynamite is enough to do serious damage, even without shrapnel.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/masscasualties/explosions.asp

Well, Canray was talking about grades and strengths of dynamite. When he comes back he might have more to say, but my dynamite experience with low grade stuff pretty much fits that description. Scary as hell, but mostly harmless from a half dozen feet away. I didn't have armor, but the rocks that went flying could hurt a lot.

I love stump removal.

Edited for spelling.

Well, yeah in small quantities the whole damage thingy is a bit weird.

BUT have a look at the explosive rules in the arsenal. They allow for some fixing of some problems.


Getting nethits to damage for example is a big thing.

Also the whole -AP option when building charges can get pretty insane (since it isn't capped you can make a 1 KG TNT Charge which ignores 100+ armour. Only costs you time)
And finaly you can, when building charges, declare them having higher blast radius (again it only takes time)

So in higher kg-units bombs get freaking insane. Hm... i have posted some calculation somewhere here a few months ago... let me search for it.

Ah yes here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry977352
and bit further down in the same thread:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry977360

So it is pretty much an expensive home-made truck-bomb with the power to take down a city-block... and a portable bomb with the power to take a whole arcology *g*

IIRC, there *are* rules for shrapnel: if a blast breaks a barrier, it creates a larger frag cloud.

… and yes, the demo rules are crazy. Too weak, too strong, too complex, bleh.

As an Engineering student I can tell you that demolitions is more accuracy than strength. These things still should be making a large boom for higher grade stuff, but the sheer destructiveness comes from positioning.

I guess my point is that you should only use explosives if you have the precise placement you want because if your target is a bit to the left you may need to take out the building too. The Knights might have something to say about that.

In that aspect, the advanced rules probably do work. The net hits is from the proper application of demo skill, and there are rules for various shapes and functions. The problem is that SR players don't care about 'demolitions'; they just want to blow things (people) up. For that, just use the cheap grenades.

Yeah, grenades are explosives designed for killing, they should probably be used instead of explosives designed for breaking things. At least, you know, for killing.

Unless said killing involves simultaneously severing all structural supports in a building with explosives and causing the thing to collapse on your target.

Random Post # 14

Yeah, but that's death by breaking things. It's a special case.

Grenades are, at their core, explosives.

A standard pineapple kills with shrapnel propelled by six or so ounces of Comp B. Weigh that against 2.2 pounds of dynamite, which has half-again as much energy density as TNT.

Logically speaking, there is far greater explosive energy contained in 2 pounds of dynamite than there is in a hand grenade. The sheer energy of the blast is lethal.

I'm just having a hard time reconciling the idea that four sticks of dynamite does less damage than the Shadowrun equivalent of a 22 with a range of six feet.

If those 2.2 pounds aren't used to accelerate shrapnel to lethal velocities, it really isn't going to be that dangerous unless you're very close to it.

Well yes. If you don't have a clue what you're doing (ie, no Demo skill and a Logic of 2) you won't be doing much of anything with a kilo of dynamite, you're in fact more likely to do more damage to yourself than to whatever you're trying to blow up. This is why children and metally handicapped people generally aren't allowed around explosives.
If however, you are that Demo expert (ie. Demo skill 4, with a spec in commercial explosives, and Logic 4) you're rolling 10 dice, so getting an average of 3 extra rating added to that dynamite, bringing it up to 6. Actually building for it would up this ante further. Most hackers would make great demo men.
So let's assume we're just trying to make a big hole in a 10 cm thick structural wall of reinforced concrete (armour 24, structure 15), with 1 kg of dynamite.

Positioning's first. Where a professional will always place explosives inside a structure -taking some time to drill holes and whatnot- quadrupling DV, the quick fix would be to stick it to the wall and tamp it, doubling DV. The first brings DV to the wall up to 24 for the pro, the second leaves it at 12. Of course, the first also reduces the ammount of destruction actually needed, optimally halving it. Also note that the first will produce shrapnel in all directions, as outlined on SR4a pg 325.
Now, according to the Damaging Barriers table on SR4a pg 166, explosives do double DV to destroy barriers. This takes the pro to 48, while the quicky gets 24.
Now the wall gets to resist, having its armor halved because of explosives being affixed to it (SR4a pg 325). It buys hits to get 3, bringing the pro down to 45 DV, and the quicky to 21.

The pro blasts an exactly 3 square meter hole in the wall (6 if assuming he drilled halfway in, so destroys double), the quicky blasts a one square meter hole with some DV to spare.
If you would take double the ammount of explosives, the numbers would be 93 DV for the pro, 45 for the quicky, resulting in respectively 6(12) and 3 square meters of hole. For a grand 160 .

Explosives are NOT meant to target people. Their fuses tend to be too long, shapes not fit for throwing, etc. For blowing up buildings though, they work like a charm.

Which is, after all, their intended purpose.

Well, if you wish I can save you the trouble, check my sig, I've made a java app that does the math for you when handling explosives. Feedback is accepted.

Bear in mind also that calculating force of explosives involves cube roots which, as OP pointed out, is beyond the interests of most casual gamers. Therefore SR has made a compromise (at least in SR3) - explosives are less potent at close range and more potent at long range than they should be, but average out nicely in middle range, and in exchange, you get nicer math. Grenades are made for short range, and so have better power. Dynamite is calculated for medium range, so has better power there.

(I don't know how things changed in SR4.)

I did try to create some more accurate explosives rules, but aside from Kage, I don't think anyone wanted to dance the cube-root tango with me.

The rules for IEDs on Arsenal p. 94 are all shrapnel bombs, and the table on p. 95 includes modifiers for a pure incendiary explosion instead of shrapnel. Though, there aren't any hard fast rules that I can see for adding shrapnel damage to a stick of dynamite or a flash bang next to a heavy glass window.

For stumping, my understanding is that would be an example of tamping the charge. (Arsenal p. 90-91, gets a x4 DV)

I just meant that there *are* hard and fast rules for adding shrapnel damage to a bomb next to a glass window/metal door/whatever.

Non-Shrapnel Explosions can cause internal damage by the compression wave that emits from epicenter of the detonation. The rush of wind that hits you causes damage to your internal organs, can break bones, and so on. However, it does not take that much distance for that wave to dissipate. A prime example I can quote happened back home, oh, a decade or so ago... A Semi-Truck was towing a box trailer full of mining explosives (And, apparently, illegally also carrying blasting caps) and went up with enough warning that the driver was able to get everyone away with only hearing damage being the injuries.

They found the front axle in a farmer's field a few miles away. That's the only piece of the truck and trailer found. The crater in the ground was EPIC!

I'm related to miners, having come from a Northern Ontario mining town, the the Government gives landowners (Who I know a few) dynamite to get rid of beaver dams that cause flooding on their land. There's various Grades or Classes of Dynamite, denoted by their colour (Usually, it can depend on the country it's manufactured in, apparently).

With the exception of obvious military explosives designed for anti-personnel work, explosives are not as dangerous as one might think. That said, they need to be treated with as much respect as possible, and then a bit more.

Really? I couldn't find any. Do you have a page reference? Rules would be a lot easier than me just making stuff up on the fly.

Whoops, I described it wrong: it's not 'adding damage', it's shrapnel extending the blast range.

Got it. I had missed that one. Thanks for pointing me to it!

Depending on the barrier (glass versus plasteel), I'd go ahead and give the standard 'fragmentation' positive AP mod to people caught in the extended area. Personally.

Reminds me that there's a thread around where you take a small bomb and place it behind some 32 sheets of glass spaced 1 meter apart.

You get a 2 mile long area of complete devastation.

I remember hearing about using furniture and appliances as shrapnel to bounce around areas by setting up shaped charges on the other side of the wall.

A fridge bouncing around inside a kitchen would make for some quite dangerous amounts of death.

Unless your victim is inside the fridge.

Nah. They don't build fridges like that anymore. Cheap aluminum POS. Can't take an explosion.

You only need the lead lining to prevent from radiation damage.

Since in SR, just about every fridge is a drone, and hence a vehicle, all you would need to do to survive inside it would be to wear a seatbelt.

And maybe an airbag upgrade.

Crash Foam for the Win...