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Seth
When creating characters for what will be a long running game with more than one missions, what do people do about the initial bound spirit services?

I cannot see why you shouldn't just pay for the components and roll some die, which works out (usually) far cheaper than than the chargen price.

This is especially true for technomancers. Every technomancer I've played or played with, within a couple of adventures has reached the steady state (through playing in game time) when they have capped their sprite limits for sprites that are easy to summon.

I'm writing mostly as I am GMing a (hopefully) long running game, and I'm wondering what most people actually do, as opposed to whats in the rule book
pbangarth
I tend to get a few spirits at chargen, if for no other reason the number of services are usually pretty good compared to what comes with the dice when summoning/binding a spirit at your safe limit. I haven't thought about sprites.
TheOOB
The price for starting with spirit/sprite services is a little extreme. For the price of 1 service I can get force 5 binding mats, which will usually grant a bound spirit of 2-4 services.
pbangarth
I could be wrong. Let's test it out. Magic 5 magician, Conjuring Group 4, Some Focus for 2 more dice == 11 dice. Magic 5 at chargen gives Force 5 spirits, so Summon and Bind a Force 5 spirit.

Summoning: 11 dice gives ~ 3-4 hits, Force 5 gets ~ 1-2 hits, so net 2 services. Remember the Drain at double the spirit's hits.

Binding: 11 dice give ~3-4 hits, Force 5 gets 10 dice, so maybe 1 net hit, so no more services, but you have the spirit bound, half the time. So at a cost of a half BP worth of cash and two Drain tests, you get 2 services. The 2 services would cost you 2 BP at chargen, so the financial cost is 4 times as high. But the actual Binding only works about half the time, so make that double the financial cost at chargen.

Strictly by money, it is cheaper to wait and do it in game. But there is the Drain. The cost of that is entirely situational, so I have no idea how to evaluate that.
TheOOB
Well, the drain is largely irrelevant unless your GM insists you are doing it right before a run. You can repeat the summoning test until you get several services, for more services overall. Also, rarely do people buy the conjuring skill group, it's not unusual to go summon 4 binding 6. Plus add specializations, and edge. You can get a lot of services.
pbangarth
Some GMs take exception to a player redoing summoning or spellcasting (for example Improve Attribute) repeatedly until he gets the result he wants.

In any case, the convenience of having a spirit right from the get-go is enough for me. Even if it isn't min-max cost effective.
Ol' Scratch
For me, even in an ordinary campaign, it comes down to being pretty much unfair. Other archetypes get to spend their build points on permanent stats and abilities. Magicians, and only Magicians with a single, specific skill, have to spend build points on something that's not only temporary, but which they can reproduce after the game starts for only the cost of the "ammunition" (Conjuring Materials) and some preparation time.

But what if the start of the game doesn't have much time to prepare? That's really the only time it comes up, but does that really make any sense? To penalize a single build of a single archetype by making them blow BPs on something they should be able to do just fine, or have done any time in the past due to the nature of bound spirits?

I mean, the Magician still needs to acquire the Conjuring Materials for the binding ritual. Shouldn't that and the appropriate rolls be balanced enough? Why cripple a character by making them expend so many resources just for a spirit that he can reproduce in-game for only a few thousand nuyen? Isn't the whole point of the Resources rules (no surgery costs, no size modification costs, etc.) to account for 'preparation time' in the character's background?

If it were an Ally Spirit or something, I could see making a player pay build points for it. But that's because it would be a permanent addition to the character.
Seth
QUOTE
Some GMs take exception to a player redoing summoning or spellcasting (for example Improve Attribute) repeatedly until he gets the result he wants.

Agreed. But this is different...its binding. Each time there is a cost, and the nett successes add.

The exception isn't really warranted anyway: its a poor game mechanic. In D20 at least they have the take 20 mechanism that deals with keeping on trying until you have done the best you can do, shadowrun doesn't have an equivalent.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Seth @ Mar 4 2011, 06:02 AM) *
Agreed. But this is different...its binding. Each time there is a cost, and the nett successes add.

The exception isn't really warranted anyway: its a poor game mechanic. In D20 at least they have the take 20 mechanism that deals with keeping on trying until you have done the best you can do, shadowrun doesn't have an equivalent.

Actually, they do. You lose -2 Dice for every successive attempt at the same thing. If you failed, or if you succeeded and did not like the result, you may try again, but at a Dice Pool penalty.
Seth
The reason it is not the same thing is:

Binding a creature you accumulate the successes, and you spend money (lots) each time you do it
Casting a spell you don't accumulate the successes, and you don't spend money

I was just saying that they were different
Inncubi

I usually don't use any BP for spirits. I need them elsewhere. Everytime. I suck at chargen.

However, I do establish a house rule for long term spirit bindings. Downtime is a big part in my games, and with enough of it, magicians can end up with force X spirits owing them Z services (replace with high arbitrary numbers the given variables), so, to spice things up for them, and have them think about what and when they bind, I have the spirit's owed services reduced by one per week of downtime. I assume the mage uses them for spellcasting and mundane stuff during those weeks, and that is how I explain the player the reduction. No one has complained, and it makes high force spirits more something for summoning, than binding.

Same for Sprites.

Its worked well at my table.
Seth
I have to say that the cost of binding materials is so great that I have never had to worry about that sort of thing, but I guess it depends on the type of game you run> I agree with the high force spirits for summoning not binding, but I find the drain cost makes that just happen. I just explain to people the consequences of the spirit rolling well on drain. A force 6 binding can do 24 drain if the spirit rolls well...and is quite likely to do 12 drain, knock you out and then kill you while you are unconscious. So far those explanations have worked.
Inncubi
True, Seth.

The cost also makes the mages think thrice before using them and wasting services during downtime. I don't have min/max players, actually. I don't do it for balance, even though my past argument seemed like it. I do it to keep the game moving and changing constantly. It has never been a problem for me to have an elven mage pumped with spirits. And if it happened, and put my campaign at risk (make it less fun for me and/or other players), I'd simply discuss it with the player and work it out.

I do like the house rule though. In any case it applies to NPC's as well, not that I keep a track of bound spirits of every corp mage out there, but it explains why corps don't do Bound Spirit Spam in every secret lab out there.
Seth
QUOTE
why corps don't do Bound Spirit Spam in every secret lab out there.

They don't??
Inncubi
Not in my world.

biggrin.gif


Actually I run a low magic SR. The team usually has about half the team of magically active characters (3-4, usually 2 full magicians, one mystic adept one adept) a rigger and a hacker/technomancer. Because, well, they /are/ cool. I explain to the team that they are an exception. A big one. One in a million kind. They smile and nod.

The team they usually put together, again, in my world, has about a hundred times the magical firepower of an AA relevant research lab. They have panic button and astral mage response.

Yes, they do feel special because of it.

Seth
QUOTE
Yes, they do feel special because of it.

Very nice
pbangarth
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Mar 4 2011, 12:57 AM) *
For me, even in an ordinary campaign, it comes down to being pretty much unfair. Other archetypes get to spend their build points on permanent stats and abilities. Magicians, and only Magicians with a single, specific skill, have to spend build points on something that's not only temporary, but which they can reproduce after the game starts for only the cost of the "ammunition" (Conjuring Materials) and some preparation time.

But what if the start of the game doesn't have much time to prepare? That's really the only time it comes up, but does that really make any sense? To penalize a single build of a single archetype by making them blow BPs on something they should be able to do just fine, or have done any time in the past due to the nature of bound spirits?

I mean, the Magician still needs to acquire the Conjuring Materials for the binding ritual. Shouldn't that and the appropriate rolls be balanced enough? Why cripple a character by making them expend so many resources just for a spirit that he can reproduce in-game for only a few thousand nuyen? Isn't the whole point of the Resources rules (no surgery costs, no size modification costs, etc.) to account for 'preparation time' in the character's background?

If it were an Ally Spirit or something, I could see making a player pay build points for it. But that's because it would be a permanent addition to the character.

I don't see this option as anything more than that...an option. I don't think mages are forced to spend BP on spirits. I just usually choose to do so.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 4 2011, 09:40 AM) *
I don't see this option as anything more than that...an option. I don't think mages are forced to spend BP on spirits. I just usually choose to do so.

Indeed... Sometimes it is a good choice, and sometimes it is not, entirely dependant upon the character in question.
Mr Clock
Agree with the choice. I didn't buy any sprites at CC because I was busy cramming everything else in. Sure, if I had spare BP, I might have thought about it, and after having the experience of how useful sprites are I might have seriously considered it. But I don't think I missed out on anything. If you have more than a day before your first run, there's time to rock something up - if you spend BPs, you have it guaranteed at a decent level, at the cost of skills which you then need to boost with Karma, which comes with runs, which come with time...

So. Not fussed about it. I'd rather run it RAW than have the samurai get shiny wires on the premise that he does a job before he meets the team, and claim that paid for it.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 4 2011, 10:40 AM) *
I don't see this option as anything more than that...an option. I don't think mages are forced to spend BP on spirits. I just usually choose to do so.

Normally, yes. But the crux of what I was trying to get at in my response is the only time its worth doing is the only time it is forced; in a game that starts immediately after character creation and you don't have the time to bind spirits (which requires some prep time and access to your lodge and conjuring materials). Every other time there isn't any compelling reason to waste BPs, and that's exactly why it's a pretty unfair rule in and of itself. The vast majority of the time its a waste and not at all useful, but the tiny minority of the time you do have a character that revolves around the use of bound spirits in a game where there isn't really any time to bind them between chargen and the start of the game, it forces that character to either go without or waste permanent BPs to weaken themselves compared to everyone else by buying temporary spirits.

Considering that's the basis of the original question, it's a pretty important point.

To put it as an example, imagine a Street Samurai was forced to do the very first run of a game with all of his implants disabled, and he could only re-enable them once he was able to return home, where he had the time and money to deal with the surgery to turn them on. But no one else on the team had to worry about anything like that, just the Street Samurai. (But he could pay a big chunk of BP to do it before the start of the run if he wanted to, instead.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Mar 4 2011, 12:54 PM) *
To put it as an example, imagine a Street Samurai was forced to do the very first run of a game with all of his implants disabled, and he could only re-enable them once he was able to return home, where he had the time and money to deal with the surgery to turn them on. But no one else on the team had to worry about anything like that, just the Street Samurai. (But he could pay a big chunk of BP to do it before the start of the run if he wanted to, instead.)


Not an apt comparison, I do not think. Sometimes it is good to start with Bound Spirits, especially if your Magic Rating is High (Say a 6). This can give you a spirit or two with decent amounts of Services, with absolutely no risk whatsoever. SOmetimes this is worth it. Starting the game with 5 Force 6 Spirits, each with 2 Services owed, for the paltry price of 10bp, is pretty handy, especially if you do not have to actually roll the dice to do so.

It is extrememly situational. Most times, I would imagine that the bp is not spent on such things, but if you have a few extra bp to spend, and are looking for a useful way to spend them as a magically active character, Bound Spirits is a pretty good investment.
Cain
Personally, I don't think it's ever worth it. It's simply not cost-effective enough. You can summon on the fly anyway, so unless you absolutely need bound services for something right after game begins, you've wasted your BP's. I've seen magician players start the game by running home and summoning/binding a spirit, so they'll have one ready for the big meet with Johnson. Usually, most games give the players eight hours or so to prepare for the meet, so they'd have ample time to summon a decent-sized spirit.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 4 2011, 02:47 PM) *
Personally, I don't think it's ever worth it. It's simply not cost-effective enough. You can summon on the fly anyway, so unless you absolutely need bound services for something right after game begins, you've wasted your BP's. I've seen magician players start the game by running home and summoning/binding a spirit, so they'll have one ready for the big meet with Johnson. Usually, most games give the players eight hours or so to prepare for the meet, so they'd have ample time to summon a decent-sized spirit.


Sure, but high-force bound spirits (Force 5 and 6, assuming the character's Magic Attribute is that high) are another thing entirely, and are not as common. At least in our games. And the Risks for binding such spirits are significant. But yes, it is not super cost effective. I usually only do so if I have a couple of points that I have no need of anywhere else.
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