Just a little thought I had (imagine that...)

Now, I wan't some discussion about this since it has two or three functions.

1. GM VS mages, how to screw your players 101
2. Mage VS Mage tactics
3. Inventive use of magic

According to the description of a basic physical barrier spell it practically stops any kind of physical impact but let smaller particles through like gas, light etc.

Light, now that that struck a spark

If the barrier didn't let light particles through then one wouldn't be able to see through the barrier, right?

So what about a few elemental manipulation spells? Lightning? That is essentially pure energy and not really a physical object, it's a mass of particles. Laser? Laser is LITERALLY light and should, theoretically pass through a physical barrier even though it is a "physical" spell.

Yea, ok, so one could say that it is "magic" that makes the laser go zap against the barrier. So, why are there so much complicated physical rules about magic then? Treshold, energy VS mass etc?

A physical barrier is very useful but some spells would actually ignore it. What about an actual Acid Mist/Gas spell? It should pass through since it could be made to function like a gas.

OoooOoooh! (devilish laugh)

In addition to the cut of your jib, I like the sound of your town. Murfreesboro.

But we have the All-Wide Science Fair just around the corner, and I've been straining for a project.

First, we make players confident that Physical Barrier is the new Awexome. Next, we introduce them to our control the MP Laser III, (for the first time, I might add), and then we introduce them to a weather mage.

Near the end, I predict they will be:
-Violent
-Erratic
-Really Funny to Watch.

I have high hopes for this project, and am certain I will take first prize this year.

i think of barriers as being, basically, a very fine-mesh screen. yes, lasers can pass through it, but they'd scatter some; easiest to treat it as if the barrier provides armor as normal. lightning, same, just on GP.

the reason magic faces such complications against purely physical targets is that you have to do more work to make a magical effect purely physical. electricity works on a similar concept: think of mana as being electricity, stored in a giant astral battery. auras, basically, act as conductors--they provide an easy route for mana to reach the phyiscal plane. to affect anything without an aura, you have to push through the resistor that seperates the astral from the physical.

no laser on any imaginable scale will have the mass of a bullet, especially SR lasers (which come in quick, .0001 second bursts). and armor does affect laser weapons, just not very well--impact armor offers 1/2 its rating.

I'd let lasers blow through, lightning bolts blow through as well, and stop fireballs, etc.

~J

Looking at the barrier-type spells, I always envisioned Physical Barrier as momentum-scattering. Basically every time a molecule/photon/quantum unit enters the Barrier's area, its momentum is scattered in a random direction. In other words, say a photon is traveling towards the Barrier at 3E8 meters per second, the speed of light. Upon hitting the barrier, the absolute speed of the photon doesn't change--that's impossible. The direction of movement, however, changes, causing the photon to head off--at the speed of light--in an essentially random direction.

This isn't really as radical an idea as it sounds. Paint and frosted-glass windows scatter light in essentially the same way, although paint does it by absorption while Barrier I presume does it by some sort of magic-intersecting-reality method. I prefer the idea that the spell fragments space-time, but you can insert whatever thaumatological explanation you like, including some sort of miraculous divine/totematic intervention. The important thing, though, is that it affects each molecule/photon/unit individually. The net effect then is that an macro-object like a laser beam or bullet or arm, that is made up of many molecules/photons/units, is stopped as its momentum is scattered in all directions. A laser will just degenerate into a bright flash of light; a bullet will slam into the wall and stop as half its momentum is reflected back the way it came.

This is of course how a *perfect* Barrier would stop objects/laser shots/etc. An imperfect Barrier (that is, one with less-than-infinite Force) would fail in some way. Perhaps a large amount of mass/energy causes "normal" space-time to reassert itself?

I'm not so versed on magic so maybe you guys can help me along.

But I was always of the assuption that the Barrier spell blocked the lightning or the laser spell because it was a spell. Someone took mana, shaped it, and targeted you so your spell should be able to stop it. I don't know maybe thats Spell Defense or sheilding that I am thinking about.

And I guess those are physical spells huh, so once cast they are the same as if mundane in origin?

And what about a lasergun or some jhole with a gas dispensor. Hmmm I don't know about this either. Maybe its that the Barrier spell cast is layered or something. Like it works on multiple levels depending on the threat invovled. Is magic even that "smart"?

Hmmm, also maybe the Barrier acts on intent then instead of physics. Is that possible?

I was actually thinking of a physical laser with mundane origin.

~J

Physical Barrier explicitly does not affect non-elemental-manipulation spells, which pretty well shoots down all the "stopping the mana flow" theories. The description does leave open the possibility of affecting elemental manipulations, but doesn't explicitly say that they are affected. I'd interpret this as meaning that elemental manipulations are stopped or not stopped just as they would be if they were natural effects. This means that some elemental effects - Acid, Blast, Fire, Light, Lightning, and Water - should pass through it with little to no difficulty, others - Metal and Sand - should be stopped by it, and the last couple - Ice and Smoke - may or may not be affected, depending on how the GM interprets their effects... whether Ice is just biting cold that should radiate through the permeable barrier without trouble, or whether it's a blast of ice shards that would be stopped by it, and whether the particles in the smoke are small enough to pass through the barrier or not.

My question is: If you shoot an invisible person with a laser, does it affect them? Does it affect the visible person standing behind them? (Improved Invisibility should be assumed... the mana version obviously has no effect.)

Similarly, will a Trid Phantasm barrier stop laser fire?

I could see an invisibility/phantasm spell reducing the power of a laser weapon just as a silence spell reduces the power of sonic attacks. Neither provides complete defense, but it can interfere.

Physical Barrier reduces the power of lasers by 1 in my games, and also the effect of any glare penalties across the barrier. If it's opaque enough for a 1-point visibility penalty, I figure it's good for one point of just about everything to do with light passing through.

Just my opinion

Imp Invis is physical, I think.

Improved invis is physical in the sense that it fools electroniuc devices, but it's still just an illusion. There is no physical manipulation of light. This is a grey area of spell categories that can spiral downhill in argument quite easily.

Physical illusions are completely physical, they aren't called manipulation spells because there are too drekkin' many manipulation spells already.

In other words, you support the school of thought that a Physical Illusion spell can manipulate light waves? Which means that, in your games, resisting a Physical Illusion spell will not let you see through it, for example, but only tell that it isn't real?

I'm of the school of thought that Illusions affect the minds of people, and in case they are Physical, also the "minds" of machines, but never directly manipulate light.

For those who think Physical Illusions actually manipulate light: How does Improved Invisibility work in your games? If someone resists it, what exactly do they see?

a) how can the stealth and silence spells stop the creation or transmission of sound if they are not true physical effects?

b) magic and mundane physics are drastically different. One force 1 spell can create an effect measured in gigajoules, while another force 6 spell is limited to a few kilojoules or less. If you want magic to suffer limits based on mundane physics, then each elemental manipulation will have drastically different damage and drain codes.

c) improved invisibility redefines the properties of a subject to be mostly translucent. If you look closely, you can see the errors. High force spells and many successes reduce the errors. A perfect casting would be completely indistinguishable from empty air, while a normal casting may resemble a human shaped region of in air refraction (like a mirage) and a bad casting still has most of the colors in a faded translucent form.

a) They fool the listener (organism or machine) into believing they do not hear sounds originating from that area.

b) I ain't touching the energy values here. Frankly, I don't care about them either.

c) In that case, do you use Ruthenium-like rules for Improved Invisibility? Because it sure sounds like you should.

Interesting quirk of Invisibility: you're still invisible to people you can't see.

~J

However, with the interpretation that Physical Illusions manipulate light waves, you could then blow away the opposition on the other side of the invisible door with laser weapons.