Hey guys, I just read Mil-Spec Tech and had a question about LAVs and T-Birds. I've seen references to these types of vehicles throughout 4th edition, but nowhere have I seen a good description of them in general. What are their general capabilities as LAVs? Can they hover in place, break the sound barrier? Do they have jet engines or some anti-grav device? Mil-Spec tech seems to have hover tanks, is that what I should be describing to my characters?

Do any of the older source books describe t-birds in full?

And I guess my last question is, how common are LAVs? Are they reserved for corporate/gov. transports and warfare, or do small companies and individuals have them? Thanks for the info.

They're a Vertical Thrust vehicle, kind of like a cross between a helicopter and a hovercraft, an icon of Cyberpunk.

It's a flying, light tank, essentially. They fill the roles of Recon and Close Air Support. Some can be outfitted to also work as flying APCs. They're also popular with smugglers in the Divided States of America, Especially in mountainous areas where the peaks and valleys can be used to hide them from radar, and in Denver, where they're able to get quickly across the divided areas of the city.

Legally speaking, they're Military Craft for the most part, and only Security Forces and Military Units should have them. ... ... ... Yeah, I can't say that with a straight face either. In honesty, they're not exactly common, but not uncommon either. There is even one that's designed specifically for Smuggling (Built by the Cascade Orks, IIRC. Probably selling it to the NAN Armies as a supply carrier for platoons in hostile territory.).

AFAIK, there's no anti-grav technology in Shadowrun. LAVs (I think "Low Altitude Vehicle") are vectored-thrust aircraft that don't rely on fixed wings to provide the majority of their lift, preferring to rely only on engine power and ground effect. Hovercraft, similar to LAVs, use vectored thrust to provide lift and propulsion, but remain extremely close to the ground.

With out beating around the bush....

They're Wicked Fast Hover-tanks.

Simple as that. Yes some are used in smuggling, because having a wicked fast hover-tank makes a good smuggling platform through militerized zones, but.. shy of that... *shrugs*

You don't see them parked on the street, they're -not- 'common' unless your group could possess a wicked fast hover-tank. And if you use one they draw the same ammount of attention. They're loud (( they do use get engines and ground thrust to propell themselves)) and they stand out.... about like a low flying tank would. lol

They are cool though.

OK, think an A-10 Warthog with the capability to hover.

Or the flying cars in Blade Runner.

With Frickin' Lasers!

They're not sharks.

No, but they have flukes. Or it's a fluke that they fly.

I could never remember which...

T-Bird is a slang for LAV (Low Altitude Vehicles). They use vectored thrust for movement. Yes, that means jet engines, but modified so that the thrust is redirected through several nozzles that can swivel (think Harrier Jump Jet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrier_Jump_Jet). Quite different from hovercrafts.

They are capable of vertical take-off and landing. Yes they can hover. Without modification, most stock LAVs (including the GMC Banshee) are subsonic. Listed speed for the Banshee is 1000. I can't remember if that meters per hour or it is meters per combat turn. But even if it's the latter, it's still only 1200 kph. Speed of sound is 1236 kph. It won't break the sound barrier, but it's very close.

LAVs are very fuel inefficient though. There's no Rigger Black Book/Rigger II/Rigger III for SR4 yet, but in earlier SR versions, Banshees carry 7500 liters of jet fuel and has a fuel economy of 05 km per liter. That's just around 2.5 hours of operation at flank speed.

Banshees are classed as light tanks used mainly by the military for scout missions, and are therefore very restricted. But hey, so are the assault cannons/miniguns that your average gunbunny carries. And you have a license for those right?

But that's just the Banshee. The Stonewall on the other hand is a classed as a main battle tank. More heavily armoured/armed (it's supposed to have a rail gun) but a lot slower.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I now have a picture of what these things actually are. Even though I've seen Blade Runner, the spinners in that movie did not come to mind, but now I see it.

Just a quick follow-up, would LAVs be used as Air-Taxis in various sprawls, or would they use Helicopters instead (or something else)? The Sydney setting is supposed to be heavy on Air Taxis and air traffic in general, so I know it's going to come up.

It depends if you need very expensive, very militarized air taxis.

Of course, you could have civilain, Taxi sized, LAV's...

*shrug*. He asked if you needed hovertanks, not hovertaxis. That's not what an LAV is. Someone could invent it, but no one has that I'm aware of: LAV 'currently' means Banshees, not 'any vec-thrust brick'.

My gut reaction is no, helicopters would be more competitive.

Oh, I know... Why anyone would go to the expense of an LAV Taxi I do not know, but it is possible... *shrug*

Well, that answers that. Helios for my air taxis, with the possible exception of a paranoid CEO in a hovering limousine shaped LAV.

Which would be an awesome extravagant custom thingy… er, target.

Heh...

Which you know the 'Runners will want to keep for themselves. After they've modified it properly, of course.

Just remember that little bit of jetwash when hovering into the upper management section of the car park

Also IIRC previous books said the hover capacity was limited to a few dozen meters, going higher than that required forward motion to generate aerodynamic lift.

Eh... It'd kinda stand out.... about like a big ol hovortank though wouldn't it? Most runs don't want to draw quite that much attention by every corp sec in the state.

Yeah choppers still work as Air taxies and the rigger books have a couple for this.

LAV's are... well Hover tanks. Just equate them that way. Just like a businessman isn't likely to ride in a real tank to get across town he's not likely to ride in an LAV. You can't park them on the street and I'd imagine if you took one NEAR a city they're going to mobilize to come after you. We've all seen the few times tanks have been stolen and taken through the city. Makes the news and Youtube and it really stands out.

Now make that tank be able to move at about 1000 mph instead of 60 and you can understand why the government isn't going to want them anywhere NEAR the city. They're going to roll out the Sec Guards, Lone star, knight errant and maybe even the state's national guard if you go tolling around in one.

They're neat, but they're meant for 'war zones' and merc campaigns. Not normal shadowruns.

If you USED one on a shadow run it'd be cool... right before the jets and drones from 100s of miles around all open up on you. But... they do have style.

Don't forget the Supercarrier group that's in Seattle's harbor if you use one in the Metroplex. Those pilots are probably really bored and wishing for some action.

Oh, look, a flying tank just popped up on radar.

or the love child of a mi-24 and a yak-38.

I like yours better.

Throw a Phantom into the mix - the victory of engine thrust over aerodynamics

PS: Is it my browser, or is something wrong with the smilies?

As i can see the smileys just fine(sadly, i hate those), i suppose it is something on your end.

this old birdie? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w..._F-4_Phantom_II

i can do you one better on the thrust department: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w...Gurevich_MiG-25

Supposedly designed to chase down blackbirds...

Sure the F-4 has been overtaken by other planes, but is remains the original flying brick. And if you've ever witnessed a close flyover, you know where the German nickname "Luftwaffen-Diesel" came from

And AFAIK the Foxbat had rather craptastic Thrust/Weight values, because it was mostly stainless steel. It could possibly chase a Blackbird, but it would have taken some time to get up to speed.

yep, 0.41, while the Phantom is between 0.89 and 0.58 depending on load. And i did indeed forget to check introduction dates, as the Foxbat is 10 years after the Phantom

I still catch myself referring to LAV's as Panzers. But that's just me.

As for air taxis I think of something closer to the Rotodyne. Then again I just like those things.

Rotodynes are cool...

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kamov_Ka-31 may work as well.

The MiG-25 wasn't quite fast enough to catch a Blackbird, having a top speed of Mach 2.5 or so. The one observed to be flying over Mach 3 in the Middle East it turns out was a fluke, some engine malfunction causing it to accelerate out of control. They didn't find this out til later, though, after they got to interview Viktor Belenko about the aircraft after he defected.

Interesting bit about the MiG-25: The Soviets at the time did not have mass production capability for transistors, so the aircraft's avionics and other electronics actually used hyper-advanced vacuum tubes. Tiny, tiny little tubes each the size of a pinhead. It's the kind of thing that western engineers never really even thought of, since they had more or less abandoned vacuum tube tech and gone full speed with transistor development. As a result, the MiG-25 while technically less advanced than it's Western counterparts was likely much more resistant to temperature extremes and electromagnetic interference.



-k

This talk of Air Taxis reminds me of the Whispercraft from the 6th Day. http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBI...opicID=40644885

Now there's a design that could work well in shadowrun I would think.

Indeed... I like that one...

or maybe a flying humvee? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/30/flying-...s-like-a-reall/

I think I saw that in Wired's "Really stupid moronic Ideas" Issue or something.

I can just see the OpForce going, "PULL!" whenever they see one and unloading on it.

How about the Mantis Gunship from Mass Effect. Just without the eezo core.

Or the Hammerhead as a LAV.

They have pictures of the things in Shadowrun guys. Why are we finding things like them? LoL

Not good pictures, really.

I want more gun and vehicle porn, damnit!

Yeah for all the great art in shadowrun they really screwed the pooch on the weapon and vehicle art.

http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShad...es/banshee1.jpg

http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShad...aztech-lobo.jpg

http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShad...onewall-mbt.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs10/i/2006/130...by_Fastfood.jpg

Just a quick google glance.

Yup. I don't want to use too much technical jargon here, but that's what's scientifically referred to as 'not good pictures'. The last one is halfway-decent.

Didn't you know that LAV stands for Line-drawing of an Amorphous Vehicle?

I've normally imagined the LAV's to look more like the dropships from Space: Above and Beyond

http://spaceaboveandbeyond.tv/images-issapc.html

with maybe less length, more compact like... maybe 1/2 the length.

Maybe something like this:

http://bf2142.free-gfx.com/bf2142_vehicles...p_ud6_talon.png

The best panzer art was the sketch from SR1. The colour CGI picture from the RBB was acceptable in a TRON-like way. Anyone have the pdf's in lieu of me scanning them?