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enkidu
In my two of my last three runs, the sammi has tried to knock an opponent out by cracking them over the back of the head with the butt of his gun. First time, the target had his back turned and was unaware. In the second, he was tied up and they wanted to keep him quiet.

I'm not entirely sure what to do on this one. I'm sure you CAN knock someone out like this, but seems like you might kill him while you're at it. Was thinking of having him roll a Clubs + Strength test with a threshold of the target's body, or maybe body -2 for the target being unaware.

Is this covered in the rules and I've missed it ? Anyone else have any experience or ideas about this one ?


(As it happened, the first time he tried, he glitched. Gun went off on contact and the guy didn't go down. Was hoping it'd dissuade him from trying again. Some hope !) smile.gif
Critias
If you've got Arsenal, check out the Improvised Melee Weapons chart on p. 17, and if he makes a habit of it he might want to look into Melee Hardening on p. 152. A pistol used as a club is just a regular Agi + Clubs attack roll, Str/2 damage, with the GM getting the option to apply a -1 to -3 modifier (if he wants to) to make up for it being something of a clumsy weapon. In addition, there's an implication that there's a pretty good chance it'll damage the gun (since Melee Hardening exists to prevent that).

Unless your group Sammie is much better with Clubs than Unarmed, it's likely not worth it to him (especially if he has Bone Lacing or something else that would upgrade his melee damage).
Saint Sithney
Typically, guns don't just go off when they're slapped around. That's just a movie thing. I'm surprised that your sam hasn't applied the melee hardening mod his guns to fully prevent this, but whatevs.

Knocking someone out is as simple as filling their stun track.
If you are attacking someone who is unawares or restrained, then they get no defensive roll.

There is a table of improvised weapon damages on p17 of arsenal.
It lists pistols as (str/2)P and rifles as (str/2)+1P Feel free to change this to stun.


How would I handle it?
Make him roll a called shot, with the -4 called shot penalty. Because the guy isn't moving/aware, he gets no roll to defend.
Then I'd have the damage be (Str) + net hits stun.

Honestly, smacking a full force dude in the back of the head has a pretty good chance of killing them, IRL. That part of the brain/stem controls a lot of little things, like your lungs.
CanRay
Trigger-Activated Transfer Safety Bars are common on a lot of firearms today. This means that the firing pin doesn't move until the trigger has been pulled at least a little bit.

If he's using the pistol grip for the hit, then he's knocking loose a few parts inside the pistol, and possibly doing damage to the bottom of the magazine. Some can handle that better than others (Hense Melee Hardening.).

If he's using the barrel, well, congrats, you just bent the barrel (and slide if it's an Automatic) of your pistol. Shooting straight will now be an issue.
Critias
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 25 2011, 04:38 PM) *
Typically, guns don't just go off when they're slapped around. That's just a movie thing.

While in general that's true, the simple fact is if someone's holding the gun the normal way (hand on the grip, finger on the trigger) when they then decide to start smacking someone with it, there are decent odds they'll squeeze the trigger on accident. I can see it being an acceptable issue on a glitch. An everyday attack roll or a regular occurrence? Nah. But yes, on a glitch.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 25 2011, 01:47 PM) *
the normal way (hand on the grip, finger on the trigger)



The normal way is using trigger discipline, where your finger doesn't go on the trigger unless you are firing or preparing to fire. smile.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 25 2011, 05:46 PM) *
The normal way is using trigger discipline, where your finger doesn't go on the trigger unless you are firing or preparing to fire. smile.gif

No. The right was is trigger discipline. The normal way is fantastically unsafe, but how 99% of the population will still hold a gun when they put one in their hand for the first time.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 25 2011, 02:47 PM) *
While in general that's true, the simple fact is if someone's holding the gun the normal way (hand on the grip, finger on the trigger) when they then decide to start smacking someone with it, there are decent odds they'll squeeze the trigger on accident. I can see it being an acceptable issue on a glitch. An everyday attack roll or a regular occurrence? Nah. But yes, on a glitch.



Thats also a Hollywood thing most people trained in the use of firearms don't keep their finger on the trigger. They keep it above the trigger along the slide or body of the gun. Prevents AD's (Accidental discharges), and fright firing the gun before you can identify your target.

enkidu
Cheers for that. One of the group has Arsenal, so I'll swipe it for a look.

As it happens, he does have Melee Hardening on some of his guns... Just not the one he clubbed the guard with. nyahnyah.gif

I'd prefer they figure out a better way to knock a target out that randomly clubbing him with whatever's to hand. I might make him buy a specialization to the Club attack then say he can change the Physical damage to Stun.

Cheers for the imput. smile.gif
noonesshowmonkey
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 25 2011, 05:47 PM) *
if someone's holding the gun the normal way (hand on the grip, finger on the trigger)


Hardly normal at all (given the circumstances of SR).

A total rube holds a gun like that. Any character with 2 or 3 skill ranks in any Firearms skill wouldn't.

Also, you can still pistol whip someone without whacking them with the butt of the weapon. It is called 'buffaloing', and involves using the length of the barrel (and front slide of a modern, automatic pistol) to clean someone's clock. Since the force the the strike is directed away from the mechanical bits, it'd be less likely still to cause an accidental discharge.
redwulf25
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Mar 25 2011, 07:26 PM) *
Hardly normal at all (given the circumstances of SR).

A total rube holds a gun like that. Any character with 2 or 3 skill ranks in any Firearms skill wouldn't.

Also, you can still pistol whip someone without whacking them with the butt of the weapon. It is called 'buffaloing', and involves using the length of the barrel (and front slide of a modern, automatic pistol) to clean someone's clock. Since the force the the strike is directed away from the mechanical bits, it'd be less likely still to cause an accidental discharge.


The accidental discharge part of the debate also assumes the gun has a trigger rather than being a smartgun with the trigger removed. Even if it still has the trigger there's no real reason to USE the trigger or even put your finger on it if you have a smartgun.
CanRay
QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey @ Mar 25 2011, 07:26 PM) *
Also, you can still pistol whip someone without whacking them with the butt of the weapon. It is called 'buffaloing', and involves using the length of the barrel (and front slide of a modern, automatic pistol) to clean someone's clock. Since the force the the strike is directed away from the mechanical bits, it'd be less likely still to cause an accidental discharge.

And, again, bend the barrel. Not a good thing.

It was called "The Gentle Art Of Beating Someone Over The Head With The Barrel", but it was often the pistol grip that was used, as that was a solid piece of wood for the most part.

Also, old Revolvers WILL discharge on a strong whack. The hammer resting right on the percussion cap of the cylinder (Be it a Cap & Ball or Cartridge Revolver.). This is why a lot of the old Gunslingers had the chamber they had the hammer resting on empty. This only gave them five rounds, but no chance if going off in the holster just because you slapped your hip to a joke.

Wyatt Earp was infamous for using the Buffalo technique, BTW. If you watch "Tombstone", you see him use it on a fellow with his own revolver.

And I just remembered a episode of Firefly where Captain Tightpants (Er, Reynolds), tossed his revolver up in the air, caught it by the body, and used the pistol grip in this way. I have the prop with the full details on the (Fictional) design of the weapon, and found out there's a battery pack in the pistol grip as well, which would give it a nice weight for beating people. Cool scene, and demonstrates how someone would do so with a revolver in a flashy way to show off. (Or for the camera in the early days of cinema.).
noonesshowmonkey
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 25 2011, 08:41 PM) *
And, again, bend the barrel. Not a good thing.


You'd either have to be a bull of a man or your opponent's head had best be made of steel - or both - to have to worry about bending a barrel over someone's flesh and bone. Last I checked, bone tended to give ahead of steel. To be fair, this IS (sparta?) Shadowrun, so you may have a cyberarm wielding a pistol hitting a cyberskull... In that case, it is composite vs composite vs composite... Still, kind of absurd.

Even less of a problem if you are using an automatic with a slide. Worst case scenario, you misalign the the slide a bit and it might stove-pipe on you. More than likely, the concussion of firing will jar it back into place.

I don't know why you seem to think that guns are not rugged, CanRay.
CanRay
Oh, I'm sure they're rugged. I just tend to want to treat things that need to operate at tolerances with care a bit too much at times. Sometimes I forget I'm over-careful due to a variety of reasons. (My shop teachers, my poor, poor shop teachers!).

And I guess I'm just too used to deal with thick-skulled Canucks from Northern Ontario. It's the predominantly Celtic Blood, you see...
Yerameyahu
I'd be more worried about the realism of clocking someone out than the realism of using a gun as a club. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 26 2011, 03:53 AM) *
I'd be more worried about the realism of clocking someone out than the realism of using a gun as a club. smile.gif
+1
I would not, as Saint Sithney suggested, freely change the improvised weapon's damage to stun. It is very difficult to render someone unconscious without doing real damage.
According to the book to achieve this effect, you do not even need a weapon. There is subdual combat, which is exactly for that.
CanRay
There's always the infamous standby, "Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"
LonePaladin
Another way to view the Melee Hardening mod is to take a cue from the movie Equilibrium: in one fight scene, John Preston's pistols sprouted a set of extensions from the clips, and he gripped the guns by their barrels, essentially turning the butt-end of the pistols into a cluster of little hammers.
http://www.b26354.co.nz/cleric_grabs/pictu...spiked_base.jpg
Critias
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 25 2011, 06:54 PM) *
Thats also a Hollywood thing most people trained in the use of firearms don't keep their finger on the trigger. They keep it above the trigger along the slide or body of the gun. Prevents AD's (Accidental discharges), and fright firing the gun before you can identify your target.

No, it's not a Hollywood thing. I know full well how a trained shooter holds a gun, thank you, I'm just saying that most people aren't trained shooters. There are a startling number of photographs out there (often posted as Facebook updates, for instance) where someone's excited to go to the range or psyched about shooting a new gun or posing like a douchebag with guns and jewelry and cash, etc, etc...and their fingers are on the trigger, almost every time. There are videos you'll see of range tests on Youtube where even supposedly trained shooters -- excited about their new 1911 or nervous in front of the camera or distracted by trying to talk and shoot at the same time -- will have their fingers on the trigger. And even at most of the ranges I've been to, including during a concealed carry course and during a police meet-and-greet citizen's academy trip to the range that I helped instruct, most people put their finger on the trigger the first time they pick up a gun.

I'm not saying they're right. I know very well that they are wrong. I'm not saying they are trained professionals. I'm saying it happens, it's how most guns are built (so that it feels very natural to have your hand just so), and I'm saying it's what the vast, overwhelming, majority of the population does when they've got a gun in their hand for the first time.

Again: I know it's not the right way to do it, but to most people it is very much the normal way to do it. And, in circumstances of momentary idiocy (IE, when rolling a glitch in the heat of combat), I can see it being an appropriate error for even a trained shooter to make.
Yerameyahu
Eh. I prefer the argument that the subject was *trained* shooters, who wouldn't.
InfinityzeN
Firearms are a lot tougher than some of you seem to thing. Ever seen a military drop test? That is dropping the weapon from shoulder height (with optics) onto concrete, then picking it up and firing it. If it loses its zero, it fails. We're talking weapons with scopes here. I saw an L3 rep actually throw an M4 with scope about 10' onto concrete, pick it up, and shoot a tight shot group into the target. If you have a steel framed pistol and you can hit someone with it hard enough to mess up its ability to shoot, then your Hercules or using the cheapest crapiest knock-off.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 26 2011, 01:30 AM) *
+1
I would not, as Saint Sithney suggested, freely change the improvised weapon's damage to stun. It is very difficult to render someone unconscious without doing real damage.
According to the book to achieve this effect, you do not even need a weapon. There is subdual combat, which is exactly for that.


Yeah, I was just making a cinematic suggestion that was equivalent to a currently available option. Not that training with clubs would particularly help you choke someone out, but giving knives and clubs the same sort of option would be nice. As it stands, the subdual section says "To subdue a character, resolve melee combat normally. If the attacker successfully hits, compare his Strength + net hits to the defenderís Body. If the attackerís total exceeds the defenderís Body, the attacker grapples and immobilizes the defender. This subduing attack causes no damage to the defender." Which doesn't specify that you need to use the Unarmed combat skill to get someone in a Subdual hold. I'm pretty sure that's not accurate though, since it later says to use Unarmed Combat Attack Test to try and get a better grip. Was this meant to imply that only unarmed could be used for subdual or that only unarmed could be used to get a better grip? I don't know.

As I said, realistically, if you strike someone at the base of the skull, be prepared for that person to die. It is a strong possibility.


And now, in a completely unrelated discussion, could someone use the Vicious Blow Maneuver to deal physical damage with Subdual?
InfinityzeN
Just do what my players do. Traq 10 slap patch upside the head.
DMiller
QUOTE (enkidu @ Mar 26 2011, 08:54 AM) *
Cheers for that. One of the group has Arsenal, so I'll swipe it for a look.

As it happens, he does have Melee Hardening on some of his guns... Just not the one he clubbed the guard with. nyahnyah.gif

I'd prefer they figure out a better way to knock a target out that randomly clubbing him with whatever's to hand. I might make him buy a specialization to the Club attack then say he can change the Physical damage to Stun.

Cheers for the imput. smile.gif


I'd suggest using Tranq packs over the old boot to the head routine. They are cheap and very easy to deploy especially if the target is already subdued or unaware. In the case of unaware I'd use a standard unarmed attack for a touch attack (and probably a called shot) just to make sure they could attach the tranq without glitching.

-D
CanRay
Try alcohol. And, if they're a member of a religion that prohibits drinking, well, you have a convenient bottle to break over their head. Pink Mohawk Style to Subtle. nyahnyah.gif
LonePaladin
There's always the cinematic option. The guard's not in a position to dodge, you want him out of the way, and pistol-whip him. At that point, is it worth rolling dice? Just have him go limp and carry on.
Yerameyahu
Ehh. If you go by the rules, even shooting him might not accomplish that. Don't get crazy. smile.gif
CanRay
No beer or 'trid makes Shadowrunners something-something...
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