Standard warning: I cut my teeth on SR3, so some of the SR4 mechanics are tripping me up, especially with respect to the question: "Are characters really supposed to be able to do this?"

I've got three players right now. One is an unaugmented Mage, one is a Face-slash-AR-Hacker with Wired Reflexes 2, and the other is an infiltration/guns expert with Synaptic Booster 1.

So the Mage gets 1 IP, the Infiltrator gets 2 IPs and the Hacker gets 3 IPs. I think their Initiative scores are 6, 7, and 9, respectively.

Now, I understand the core rules here -- roll (Initiative #)d6, count hits, and add that back to your Initiative # to get your total, and everyone acts in descending order. I happen to use a variant that doesn't force Initiative rolls at the beginning of every combat turn (roll once and it sticks through the whole combat) -- I'm pretty sure I read this variant somewhere, but looking back now I can't seem to find it. I may be going crazy.

What I want to know is, does the "standard" way work better? See, I tend to hate excess dice rolling, especially large-batch dice rolling (and especially consecutive excess large-batch dice rolling such as with many extended tests), so anywhere a mechanic gives room to avoid it, I tend to avoid it. Having everyone re-roll 6-9 dice at the beginning of every combat turn is tedious, especially when the results are usually within 1 of their last roll (and gets crazy-annoying for the GM if he doesn't want to put all the guards in one batch initiative).

But my team enters into combat, and the results are always fairly predictable unless the team is up against extremely superior wired-up guards -- the Hacker goes first, the Infiltrator goes second, and it's a toss-up between the Mage and the guards.

So this happens in one combat turn:
Hacker
Infiltrator
Mage
Guards
Hacker
Infiltrator
Hacker

And this happens every combat turn. Initiative rolls are on a normal curve, so something very unlikely has to happen for characters with a 3+ Initiative gap to go in reverse order.

I'm okay with that, I think. My players are wired up enough to go first pretty often unless they're surprised or fighting a street sam or MCT corp assassins or whatnot. That's fine.

What really concerns me is the fact that they get a bazillion actions, and they get them every turn. And I'm not even getting into my Hacker having 3 IPs in AR, 4 whenever he upgrades (sure, there's some gear in Unwired that lets you get 5 IPs, but getting to thumb your nose at Black ICE on the Ares mainframe is probably worth not having that 1 action).

That means for 3 players I need 6 guards to equal the number of player actions, and the only way around that is to dump tens of thousands of nuyen worth of cyber into the guards, which I have a thematic problem with in a lot of circumstances.

I guess what I'm confused about is that no one ever gets lucky and goes twice, without spending Edge. No one with wires out the ears ever gets unlucky and goes once.

Also, the Initiative paradigm has kind of been turned on its head between editions. The previous logic was: your dice roll determines how quickly you go, which determines how many times you go. The current logic is: your dice roll determines how quickly you go, but how many times you go is only based on Gear (and Edge).

And that's fine, but there don't seem to be any middle options like there used to be. Reaction enhancers and Intuition boosters (if there are any) affect your place in the turn order, but even if you max out and have 18 freaking Initiative dice, without Wired Reflexes or a Synaptic Booster, you're stuck acting once, while the autistic paraplegic with Reaction 1 and Intuition 1 gets to act 4 times so long as he has Wired Reflexes 3.

Is that right? Am I missing something?

you right and you're not the only one unhappy with the IP system. But concerning your example: some minor guards shouldn't be a problem for any runner team. that fact is reflected very well.

a last note. with wired reflexes3, the autistic will have at least ini 5

Your observations are generally correct. Yes, your characters are supposed to be able to do that. Going first and more often against opponents that have strength in numbers. We also have a much more augmented world, so guards may well be augmented, and even gangers will have the crude stuff. From couch potatoe to trained for 10.000¥

Your houserule of only rolling initiative once has substantial effects. Statistical outliers gain much more power - roll well once and go first for the whole combat, but beware of glitches. A bunch of qualities modify only the first initiative roll in combat, how do you handle those?

The IP system was designed to simplify combat slightly. Extra initiative passes are a huge edge. There are a few ways to keep them from steamrolling over even standard security guards, though.

First, have them spread out, hidden behind cover, etc. Don't have the clustered together where they can all be taken out in one round.

Secondly, remember that while wired reflexes: 1 is not likely to show up until you get to the lieutenant level (squad leaders, veterans - basically anything but the standard first-line security grunts), there are also combat drugs that give an extra IP. You have cram, jazz, and kamikaze. I assume if the main rulebook has three varieties of combat drugs that give an extra initiative pass, then they should be used fairly often by corporations.

On the other hand, K-10 should still be encountered... less often.

10,000 is supposed to be a lot of money. It's worth five months of living in an apartment, paying your bills, and eating regularly. Going by the examples in the book, the first threat to sport Wired Reflexes 1 is the Red Samurai Detachment, at Professional Rating 5.



I don't think it's a house rule, I'm pretty sure I read it as an option somewhere. I just don't know where.

It treats the initiative order as a cycle, so once you act, everyone else gets to act before you act again. This prevents people from getting two adjacent actions (excepting bonus IPs). So you never go last in one turn, then first in the next. Also you never go first in one turn, then last in the next (to prevent you from getting one action early, then no actions until everyone else has gone twice). It functions in a loop, so it's pretty fair.

Basically, Initiative only really matters the first turn to set the sequence. Going late in the sequence isn't a huge penalty from turn to turn, after the first, since no one else leaps around in the sequence, either. Turns just become time markers.

I don't have all the other books' qualities memorized, so the only serious Initiative-affecting one I can think of off-hand is Combat Paralysis. They just end up going late in the sequence.

As for glitches, these mostly affect the first turn -- penalties to actions, lost IPs in the first turn as you're caught off-guard, etc. But once combat moves into the second and third turns, Initiative glitches have lost their potency.

Rolling initiative only once is fine. It does change things a bit, obviously, but it isn't really huge. And it does apply to everyone in the same way.

Bye
Thanee

If you feel the combat is too easy for your team, then just change the examples. Like Glyph said, there are drugs that a gang or Corp Guards might be using. In your case, you could have a group of four guards and give extra IPs to one or two.

The basic rule is fun so if the combat isn't enjoyable cos your team rolls over them, screw the rules and change it up.

It seems like it was designed this way just to standardize the rolling system. Older editions you rolled Reaction +1d6 (+Xd6 based on Initiative boosters like Wired Reflexes). Every Combat turn you did Initiative in descending order, then at the bottom of the order you struck 10 points off each number. Anyone still in the positives got to act again in order. Rinse, repeat, until no one had a positive Initiative. It was an odd man out, in that you weren't rolling for a target number. Instead you were just adding everything up.

To me, that's quicker and easier, more elegant -- roll a d6 and add it to your Initiative score. Passing 10s marks gave you more IPs. That doesn't fit into the roll-and-count-hits paradigm of the SR4 system, though, and Init + hits never really gets high enough to provide regular extra IPs beyond +1, using the 10s system.

For me, it's just that the "I always get 3 IPs" mentality is kind of weird. I guess the glitch/critical glitch system of stripping extra IPs can make people feel unlucky, but there's no balancing positive factor of being able to get lucky and go in an extra pass where you normally wouldn't. In a sense, only screwing up badly on Initiative has a major effect.

I guess it doesn't bother me that Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters statically provide those IPs, since in previous editions they effectively provided them that way (+2 Reaction / +1d6 Init per level of Wired Reflexes adds up to consistent bonus IPs). It just seems bad that you can't get really lucky on the Initiative roll and get an extra pass.

Maybe a house rule that for every X hits on the Init roll, you get an extra pass? Would that be awful?



Drugs are a good option. I don't see certain corps (Lone Star, Knight Errant) using them regularly, but it could work with others -- non-elite security in the Japanese corps, for example.

That's handled with Edge now (however, it only works, if you are not the one with the most IPs anyways)... though it isn't something you get when you roll lucky, the GM can award (refresh) a point of Edge for having great luck with an action, for example.

The GM could also, if someone rolls extremely well on the initiative roll, grant a free point of Edge to spend immediately on an extra IP, for example.

It's all in your hands!

Bye
Thanee

Threats aren't the major problem. It just seems like my choices are: roll gobs of dice every turn and probably have everything be static (since a big Initiative number + a few hits puts way more weight on the big Initiative number than the few hits), or just have everything be static.

I've to date opted for "just static," because it's similar in results to the basic method with the perk of not having to roll gobs of extra dice.

If the Initiative roll actually really mattered I'd change that position in a hurry.

Edge is the antithesis of luck, except when used on Long Shot tests. Every other time you mostly spend edge to virtually guarantee success, so it's mostly just an "I Win" commodity (or at least an "I Probably Do Way Better Than I Usually Would Under These Conditions" commodity).

Spending Edge to get an extra IP isn't luck, it's just basic resource management.

Something you lose with the static (use same order from round to round)...

- the Uncertainty of not knowing for sure when your next turn comes, it makes planning ahead much easier, if you know your position in the initiative order on the coming rounds for certain
- Wounds reduce initiative, so getting wounded makes you slower in coming rounds

Bye
Thanee

Yep, that's what I meant with the "though..." part.

Note: I have edited some more into that post above.

Bye
Thanee

The only game I know that definitely does this is D&D 3.5.

You are right about regular glitches. But one critical glitch will hinder an augmented character significantly for the whole combat, unless you change this rule:

Just a question, Epicedion. How many rounds does combat normally last at your table? Does rolling ony once per "encounter" signfcantly reduce the number of rolls? If combat only lasts one round, which is quite possible if the PCs surprise the opposition, there is not much gain from such a house rule.

In the "static" method, you just knock people lower in the order by their Wound penalties as they accrue.




I see that.

I'm now considering a house rule in which to apply Critical Success to Initiative, where if you get 4+ hits on your Initiative test, you get an extra IP.

Statistical breakdown (roughly):
(Init: % chance of bonus IP)
2-3: 0%
4: 1%
5: 4.5%
6: 10% (average Initiative)
7: 17%
8: 25%
9: 35%
10: 44%
11: 53%
12: 61%

That encompasses the natural range of human Initiative. This can be augmented up to a max of
18: 90%

So to combat Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters from making people run away on the Initiative chart, I think it would be fair to say that each level causes that 4+ threshold to go up by 1.

So, my team's Hacker with Wired Reflexes 2 and 9 Initiative gets his 3 IPs, but needs 6+ hits on the Initiative roll to get another one, only giving him about a 4% chance.

The Infiltrator, with Synaptic Booster 1 and Initiative 8 gets 2 IPs, but needs 5+ hits to get an extra one, about a 9% chance.

Meanwhile, the Mage, with his Initiative 6 only gets 1 IP but has a 10% chance of picking up another pass.

A theoretical Wired Reflexes 3 street sam with 12 initiative would need 7+ hits to pick up a bonus IP, about a 7% chance.

In the case of Reaction Enhancers or whatever theoretical augmentation that might up your Intuition, those wouldn't modify that 4+ threshold at all. Wired and Synaptic can't be combined with other Initiative boosters, so serious abuse wouldn't be possible.

This probably needs some work (especially on those thresholds), but it would help counter-balance the chance of glitching and losing IPs with being critically successful and gaining IPs.

I like it. Now unaugmented with only Reaction Enhancers and/or Lightning Reflexes can get another IP.
Keep thinking about it. Maybe the additionally won IP comes last? Kind of just manage to squeeze in another action.

Quite possibly. My inability to find this in my SR books means that I probably read it in a house rule elsewhere or simply adapted it from D&D, and forgot that I did it.



I hadn't really thought about it. I mostly play glitches and critical glitches by ear, taking the normal rules under advisement. It's so rare for someone to critically glitch on 8+ dice that it hasn't caused a lot of fuss.



"A few turns" is my best estimate for average combat lengths. My team does their best to avoid straight-up cover-filled-hallway firefights.

It probably doesn't significantly reduce the number of rolls, but it does probably save a minute or several worth of rolling and bookkeeping -- having everyone roll and sound off their Initiative, comparing everyone's results to determine the order and then scribbling down the order.

If combat only lasts one round, then you never roll initiative a second time, anyway, and the point is moot.

That's not a terrible idea. The additional IPs could function in the hypothetical "5th IP" of a turn. This would probably end up being really annoying in practice, though.

AFAIK, there's no real benefit to getting Reaction Enhancers, except if you don't have Wired Reflexes and somehow have managed to rack up enough Essence loss to need to squeeze in a very small Essence cost. If they also made it easier to potentially get a bonus IP, it could justify their purchase. This would make them much like Boosted Reflexes of yesteredition -- a small Essence cost and a small benefit compared to Wired Reflexes, but enough added "oomph" to your Initiative roll to get you another pass some of the time.

Initiative is one of those things that definitely highlights the power difference between the samurai and the mooks, but in all honesty opponents with at least 2 passes are not hard to find given that the list includes all drones, spirits, most paracritters and literally anyone on cram or jazz. Hell, if you sent 3 drones against the team you'd actually be beating them by a pass, so things aren't completely hopeless. Really, the effect of having an IP advantage is most dramatic when the runner team already has a sizable dicepool advantage since at that point they can really start mowing through mooks double time. And really, I don't particularly have a problem in that case, since at that point we're talking about a clear superiority situation, although I understand that some people may want a closer race than that.

Good idea in general, but too easy, I think. This will happen quite a lot (competent starting characters have double digit initiative scores!).
It should be more like 5 hits (or initiative / 2 (rounded up) in hits).

One thing... you should only allow the extra IP, if the character in question does not have the highest IP in the combat already.

Because giving those, who already have the highest IP, even more, does not exactly counteract your problem with the extra actions.

Besides, they will usually be the ones that make that roll the most often on average.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Reaction Enhancers are awesome, because they stack with many initiative boosters, unlike pretty much everything else.

Init/2 would heavily favor low Init scores. Maybe a +2 threshold modifier per bonus IP from gear/magic?

How about this version>

Every 4 hits on an Initiative Test increases your natural Initiative Passes by 1. This does not result in gaining additional passes unless it exceeds your augmented IP score.

To use a f'rinstance:
A street sam, a mage, and a hacker get cornered by Lone Star. Their base Initiative/IP scores are:

• Street Sam: Init 7(9), IPs 1(3)
• Mage: Init 8, IPs 1
• Hacker: Init 10, IPs 1
• Lone Star Squad: Init 8, IPs 1

Everyone rolls initiative. The street sam gets 9 + 5 hits = 14; the mage gets 8 + 5 hits = 13; the hacker gets 10 + 2 hits = 12; Lone Star gets 8 + 4 hits = 12. Because the street sam got 4 hits, his natural IPs increase to 2, but this doesn't override his augmented IPs. The mage and Lone Star both got enough hits to increase their IPs to 2. This puts the order as follows:

14 Street Sam
13 Mage
12 Hacker/Lone Star
14 Street Sam
13 Mage
12 Lone Star
14 Street Sam

instead of speeding the unaugmented up, we could slow the augmented down.
Everybody starts with one IP.
Every 3 hits on the Initiative test grant an additionial IP, up to the maximum granted by augmentation or magic.

the end result is probably about the same as the post above.

One thing here - the book says that Jazz was specifically created by Lone Star to help them compete with wired runners. So having guards use Jazz is totally legit.

"Developed by Lone Star’s R&D Division, jazz was designed to better the odds for run-of-the-mill law-enforcement officers who run up against augmented street samurai."

especially, as a Sec Guard or LS Cop will run into a Street Samurai only once in his life.

Please do not forget. Most of those combat drugs were developed specifically FOR the Corporate Guard/Cop types. They are an alternative to permanent augmentations, which cost a lot, as you have already observed.

EDIT: Which was obviously covered in the posts above... Sorry.

Yeah, Jazz.

It costs 75 yen a hit, lasts an hour, with no side effects, and is something every guard should have.

If your crew is getting the drop on every guard, it's always going to be boring, but anyone who is expecting combat should have 2 or more IPs, including your team's mage. Whether it's casting a spell or hitting the "GO TIEM" button on their autoinjector, it's so easy to have a 2nd pass that anyone who is on the job working should have one.

That said, always tailor responses to jobs, and jobs to your team.

Well, there are *supposed* to be side effects. Ah, well.

I'd call that a side effect...

Matters for players who might have something to do 10-60 minutes after that 3 second combat, but -2 to paperwork tests for 10 minutes is not something that a guard worries about.

dunno - critical glitching a paperwork test might result in a nasty papercut...

It also used to make you insane with longterm use. I guess they removed that. It's still addictive per the normal rules, right?

I personally just have my players roll 1 initiative per combat encounter. Most combat, at least from what I've seen doesn't go past 1 or 2 rounds at the most anyway so it's not much of an issue.

Jazz goes into the list of things to use should the Lone Star agents have a round to shoot up.

As for LonePaladin's suggestion, about each 4 hits modifying IP by +1 but that only having an effect if that surpasses their augmented automatic bonus IPs, I think I kind of like it.

I may try out both and see which one works better in play. This week's game is expecting some combat, and I have some permissive players who don't mind my effing around with the system so long as we ditch it if they hate it.

It's interesting that you are happy for a fixed cycle of acting but want a variable number of IPs for the characters. I'm not arguing against the variable IPs (I think that was a notable loss with SR4) but I think the fixed cycle detracts from the experience somewhat. The practical implications are small – it only becomes unfair with regards to non-action timing, where the faster people are guaranteed to act first after a timed event occurs – but having players embroiled in a conflict know exactly who will be acting and in what order between their own actions is too simplified IMO. For example – When the chips are down and there's a chance your nearest opponent might get two actions before your next action you might well consider a different approach to the one you'd employ should you know for a fact he'll only act the once (or even not at all should you have more IPs).

And I've just thought of another thing – sacrificing actions. Suppose someone acts before you and you give up your next action to dodge. By RAW you should have a chance to act before their next action by beating them in the initiatve roll the following turn, but if it's a fixed cycle you know you won't. If your assailant is good enough he could force you to keep sacrificing your actions for full dodges and your only means of turning the tables are to take the hit, which could knock you down and consume your action (simple action?) with getting back up. This makes winning the one-and-only initiative roll in a fixed-cylce system a much bigger advantage than it might seem.

After which he's either in a grave or promoted to a nice cushy desk job.

I think it's perfectly good that PCs usually have a few more IPs on average than the opposition. The opposition only has to take out one team of PCs after all. If the PCs are going to succeed at an entire mission, they need to be better than the individual obstacles.

Also, in many combats, there are more enemies than PCs, so they really need those additional IPs, if you start totalling the IPs of both sides.

I'm intrigued by the variable IPs based on Initiative, but preferably in addition to normal IP boosts. It eases out some of the weirdness from high-initiative 1IP builds.

I personally also favor letting drugs and augmentations stack. Powerful, but I like to keep the temptations dangling in from of the players; addiction just fits SR.

I'm not really "happy" with the fixed cycle of acting. There's just no real benefit to rekajiggering the Initiative order every 3 seconds, so I haven't been doing it. With a house rule that allows extra IPs for exceptional Initiative rolls (that I'll be trying in the next game), I'll be returning to Initiative rolls every round.

Arguably with Wired Reflexes 2 in 3rd edition this didn't happen. It was pretty easy to get minimum score of 11 or better. You only needed a reaction of 4 with wired 2 to get a minimum of 11 on an initiative. I had a 3e character with a minimum of 19. So as long as I got two 2s or better on my four dice I went 3 times. I have heard of minimum scores in the 20s.

I’m just wondering how you are looking at the 4 hits = +1 IP, only if you get more bonuses than you have base IP. Does that mean that a character with 1 IP needs 8 hits to actually gain an additional IP, and a 2 IP character would need 12 hits? It would really limit the wired 3 folks from gaining an additional IP at least, as they would need 20 hits on an initiative test to gain their 5th IP. Twenty hits should be unheard of even with edge. Eight or twelve hits sound pretty darn hard to achieve. But this is talking about a free IP which is pretty powerful.

-D

I feel like you might as well just use the SR3 divide-by-ten method if you want variable IPs. Which I do like, it's a fun little uncertainty.

Yeah, a little extra analysis would show that to be pretty well impossible. As far as I can tell, there's a hard limit of 19 dice on Initiative with max augmented Reaction and Intuition and the Exceptional Attribute quality.

Going by the 4 hits (+ additional IPs beyond the first) concept as opposed to the one you described, that would mean a maxed out 19 Initiative / 4 IPs would need 7 hits to get a 5th IP, which would happen about 45% of the time.

But, honestly, 19 Initiative is really reaching for the sky. I think if someone wants to devote a quadrillion nuyen to Initiative, they should at least have fun with it.

On the other side of things, certain creatures like dragons (especially great dragons) generally have 16+ Initiative, and would end up getting their third IP pretty regularly. But they're dragons, so meh. A few other paracritters and spirits might also end up on the winning side of the deal, but that doesn't bug me either.



I thought about it. Initiative = Init + 1d6 per IP, and use the 10s system from there. However, you'd end up with some unaugmented people always getting an extra IP (10 Initiative is easy/cheap to get with unaugmented stats). With the 4 hits (+1 per extra IP) = +1 IP rule, you're either looking at augmentation or paying through the nose for maximum unaugmented Reaction/Intuition scores to get 50% odds on a bonus IP or better. The 50% mark is breached at 11 Init dice, which means at least one unaugmented stat at the natural cap.

At slight augmentation (+1 IP), that 50% mark is passed at the 14 dice mark, and heavy augmentation (+2 IP) hits it at the 17 dice mark. Someone with +3 IP never gets there within the 19 dice limit.

Those are obviously going to be extreme cases.

Under your numerics....
Human
Intuition: 7 Natural + 3 Augmented
Reaction: 7 Natural + 3 Augmented
Total: 20

Human - Exceptional Attribute [Reaction] & [Intuition], Genetic Optimization [Reaction] & [Intuition]
Intuition: 8 Natural + 4 Augmented
Reaction: 8 Natural + 4 Augmented
Total: 24

Unless there's a race out there with better than 6/6 natural unaugmented max in Int/Rea. Also not sure how feasible it is to acquire an augmented capped Intuition...

there are really no Intution augmentation except Increase Attribute Spell.
But some races can get fairly high Rea+Int: Pixie, Nosferatu, Fox shifter.
And don't forget rigged/remote controlled drones. Matrix initiative can get pretty very easy.

The drug psyche provides +1 Intuition.

Maybe you'd have to average them, or maybe all those people *should* get 2 IPs. I mean, that's kind of the point, right?

Another option might be decoupling high Initiative (going first) from extra IPs (going more than once). That's a bigger change and possibly not work the effort, though.

Humans don't get 7 natural max Reaction or Intuition, and you can only take Exceptional Attribute once. I don't know about Genetic Optimization, but I'm assuming it does the same thing as Exceptional Attribute.




Basically my opinion is that if you manage to get yourself a quadrillion Initiative, you should probably get an additional pass even if your gear doesn't explicitly give it to you. In previous editions, unaugmented normal people could get a second pass some of the time, and there were non-Wired-Reflexes gear options that weren't nearly as powerful Initiative-wise, but had other benefits and would at least make you capable of hitting the 2-3 passes range if you stacked them right.

You know what the problem with variable IPs is? The weird outliers. This system was designed to have less statistical outliers. No grannys exploding 6's on their initiative and getting 6 turns.

<small addendum>

If you want to dangle a carrot for the unwired and non-magical, let lightning reflexes have a 2nd rank that also grants an IP but only if they have no wires or magical ability (or technomagic for that matter really...)

Statistical outliers can make games fun, though.

The most memorable parts of any game are usually the ones where the most unlikely things happen. You don't want those things to happen too often, but the way dice rolling follows a normalized curve gives you sharp drop-offs toward the fringes of success (weighted by probability so that total failure is more likely than total success). It's unlikely you'll roll 0 hits on 10 dice, but it's even less likely that you'll roll 8, 9, or 10 hits.

Yeah, I *like* the weird outliers. Besides, the granny'd have to use Edge under the SR4 exploding-6 rules.