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colton
I was just putting together thoughts for my next game when a thought struck me. Say lone star arrests someone. Do they go to trial? If so, who runs the courts? The state? Lone star judges? Do they just jail people without trial? What are your thoughts?
Critias
Check out State of the Art: 2064 if you can find it (Amazon's got 'em for a decent price), it sounds like it's exactly what you're after here. It's an edition old, but I don't picture any terribly dramatic changes in how the justice system works.
CanRay
Courts are still run by the country where the person was arrested in.

So, if they were arrested in the UCAS, they're held by Lone Star in a UCAS-Leased Precinct House or Jail (Still UCAS territory, no matter who is running the shop.) until they get to their UCAS-appointed Judge. If found guilty, they're sent to Prison, some of which are owned by AA-Corporations, and then you're property and in another country.

If you're arrested on Lone Star territory (Say, a Lone Star-Owned and Designated Prakade), then you're held by Lone Star until a Lone Star-Appointed "Judge" finds you guilty and sends you off to a Lone Star Prison.

If you're arrested in the Aztechnology Arcology, then you're arrested by AZT Police, held in AZT holding cells, see a AZT "Judge", and... Are never heard from again.

If you're arrested on Horizon Designated Territory... Then you come back with a completely different personality and everyone wonders if they'll ever take another Horizon job again.
LonePaladin
Lone Star is just privatized law enforcement, they are only one aspect of the judicial system. Each government has its own way of handling the whole arrest/court/penalty process, just like nowadays. The major differences lie in the extraterritoriality of the AAA corporations -- meaning they have their own justice system -- and the fact that Lone Star isn't technically working for the state.

When they bring someone in, what they do necessarily depends on the crime. If it's something with your standard "fine and short stay in a cell" routine, they probably just handle it themselves. If they've got something bigger on their hands, well, they probably start with your typical lawyer allocation (meaning, either you contact yours or they get one for you). From there, it's up to the available evidence -- keeping in mind there's a LOT more tracking and record-keeping in the Sixth World -- and the circumstances.

If someone gets nabbed for a B&E job, and there's three security sensors showing the deed, the lawyer's probably going to push his client to go for a guilty plea and the standard-issue sentencing. Reasonable doubt might rely on providing some sort of datatrail to use as an alibi. ("I was in Kong-Wal Mart at the time. Check my purchase history.")

With the Matrix, it might even be possible to hold court in AR, without having to crowd a courthouse. Citizens could find themselves called to attend jury duty from their living room. Evidence could be streamed directly to the relevant parties, even using simsense for things that encourage handling or aren't limited to sight and sound.

'Course, there's a caveat to all this: If it's done online, it's subject to hacking. Datatrail-alibis can be cooked, virtual evidence can be edited, even the court-attendees could be faked -- though pretending to be the judge might be asking for trouble, a decent hacker could step in on the jury-selection database and "ensure" that someone gets picked.

(Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer or anything related. I've read a fair amount about the current-day process, though.)
CanRay
Digital footage is sometimes thrown out of court due to "Reasonable Doubt" as it can be easily faked by someone with the right skills and programs. The smallest bit of Data Corruption could be given as "Evidence" that it's been edited. Traditional photography has made a comeback due to this, as it's easier to prove it as legitimate. Again, depends on jurisdiction.

Courtrooms are likely to be done in RL, as opposed to online, for exactly the reasons you put up. Justice Department Databases are likely to be locked down with enough IC to sink a fleet of Titanics, and a Supercarrier or two to boot.

You'd probably need more than a receipt from Kong-Walmart to prove you were there, like an eye witness or raw, uncorrupted footage from their security footage.

The best idea is to never get to a judge in the first place. Bail is such a wonderful thing.
Epicedion
The gear section in the SR3 book is actually pretty handy, since they went through the trouble of assigning legal codes and various fines/penalties for possession, use, intent, etc, which make a nice basis for what to threaten characters with if they get too involved with Lone Star.

What probably happens is that the incarcerated's SIN is checked. If they don't have one, they are assigned a criminal SIN and their biometrics data is recorded. All their illegal gear is confiscated. Then they can buy their way out of some crimes by paying large fines -- for example, in SR3, possession of an automatic weapon without a permit is a 5000 nuyen.gif fine. Using it, though, is worth 10 grand and/or 2 years in prison. There's also some rules in SR3 about determining whether or not a cop notices/cares about a given violation enough to attempt an arrest. There's a difference between "what you gonna do with that lawnmower blade, Carl?" and "what you gonna do with that giant bag of military-grade explosives?"

In "reality," I'd expect that most violations could probably be ignored with sufficient bribery. A 10,000 nuyen.gif certified credstick could probably go a long way toward a Lone Star agent dragging his feet on finding out who murdered some corp douchebag in an alley. If the dead guy is SINless, probably less. Actually getting arrested on a major offense probably screws up a good runner career, maybe permanently.
CanRay
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 28 2011, 12:32 AM) *
If the dead guy is SINless, probably less.

Probably nothing. SINless means that you don't exist in the system. You weren't murdered, you weren't found dead, you never existed, period. A SINless found dead in an alleyway is seen as another bag for the Trash Collectors to pick up for the Incinerator Power Plant.

And people wonder why it's such a major blow to the SINners to have their SINs removed. cyber.gif
Epicedion
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 28 2011, 12:47 AM) *
Probably nothing. SINless means that you don't exist in the system. You weren't murdered, you weren't found dead, you never existed, period. A SINless found dead in an alleyway is seen as another bag for the Trash Collectors to pick up for the Incinerator Power Plant.

And people wonder why it's such a major blow to the SINners to have their SINs removed. cyber.gif


That's a little bit too far down the dystopian road. Certainly very few people would care, and there would be very little incentive for Lone Star to devote any resources to solving the crime, but if the Lone Star agent catches you over the corpse with the knife in your hand, you're still boned. Maybe not as boned as you would be if the dead guy were a SINner, but boned nonetheless.
Abstruse
Lone Star/Knight-Errant and the court system are the least of your worries if you get pinched. Because of extraterritoriality, the corps get to pretty much do whatever they want. So if you get caught by the "cops" (LS/KE/some other corp) in the streets or on property without an extraterritoriality agreement, they'll throw you into a corp system where the judge can be bought for 25000 or less (about the going rate for a wetworks team as well for the record). You know that little letter-code that comes after all that gear you bought? It's the legality code. So even if you just got pinched for out of date tags, you're going to get charged with a separate count of unlicensed firearm/explosive/cyberware/etc. for each piece you have. If you're a magic user, you're going to be lucky if you just get drugged and bound with a magemask on.

If you're on corp property at the time and they are AA/AAA, well that's a different story. To paraphrase...they'll detain you, torture you, feed you psychotropic drugs/chips, kill you, cut out all your chrome, and feed you to the para-guard animals. And if you're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.

And that's IF you have a SIN. No SIN? You're a non-entity and ANYONE can do ANYTHING they want to you with no repercussions because you're not in the system in the first place.

If you really want more info about it, pick up the old Lone Star sourcebook by Nigel Findley. I believe it has a whole chapter on prisons. If you want more info on the whole extraterritoriality thing and how it can work for and against you, you can check out Corporate Shadowfiles (NOT Corporate Download or Corporate Guide or any of the other books that are useful for other purposes like more detailed profiles of the various megacorps).
Pepsi Jedi
As a side note... how long do you guys think it'll be, before we have privatized police and prisons across the US? 10 years? less? More?
tarbrush
We have private prisons in the UK already. Holds ~11% of the prison population according to google.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 28 2011, 01:59 AM) *
That's a little bit too far down the dystopian road. Certainly very few people would care, and there would be very little incentive for Lone Star to devote any resources to solving the crime, but if the Lone Star agent catches you over the corpse with the knife in your hand, you're still boned. Maybe not as boned as you would be if the dead guy were a SINner, but boned nonetheless.


A sinless person has no influence, has no incentive, and as a sinless person has no one that matters. So yeah, the amount of effort Lone Star or KE would put into such a case is minimal at best.
So unless they catch you in the act, they may put it on somebody's docket. Ask if anyone withnessed it (might ask for local security footage), and move on when no witnesses or footage shows up. The body itself will be incenerated shortly afterwards due to the shedhim threat.


CanRay
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 28 2011, 12:59 AM) *
That's a little bit too far down the dystopian road. Certainly very few people would care, and there would be very little incentive for Lone Star to devote any resources to solving the crime, but if the Lone Star agent catches you over the corpse with the knife in your hand, you're still boned. Maybe not as boned as you would be if the dead guy were a SINner, but boned nonetheless.

An arrest for Murder is still good PR, and ranks high on the scale for the contract with the city. And, after all, the SINless is a "Probationary Citizen", so does have some right to getting justice. nyahnyah.gif

Oh, and the US already has privatized prisons.
eyeBliss
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 03:23 AM) *
As a side note... how long do you guys think it'll be, before we have privatized police and prisons across the US? 10 years? less? More?


There are already 260+ private prisons operating in the US.
colton
thanks a lot guys. it was just something nagging at me while I was figuring what exactly would happen if my group gets captured. and gave me some ideas for runs involving breaking someone out of jail!
Epicedion
QUOTE (colton @ Mar 28 2011, 01:53 PM) *
thanks a lot guys. it was just something nagging at me while I was figuring what exactly would happen if my group gets captured. and gave me some ideas for runs involving breaking someone out of jail!


Never break someone out of jail. It's too hard. What you do is get them transferred.

Then you only have to break them out of a car.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (eyeBliss @ Mar 28 2011, 12:32 PM) *
There are already 260+ private prisons operating in the US.


Yeah. I meant more, with them linked to the private police forces. I.E. the Private police arrest you and you end up in a prison also run by them. I.E. their best interest for conviction.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 28 2011, 12:57 PM) *
Never break someone out of jail. It's too hard. What you do is get them transferred.

Then you only have to break them out of a car.


Or a hospital. Transit they're expecting someone to try. When they get to the hospital they chill out a bit.
CanRay
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 01:02 PM) *
Or a hospital. Transit they're expecting someone to try. When they get to the hospital they chill out a bit.

So, if your chummer is about to be arrested, do him a favor, and shoot him.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 28 2011, 07:05 PM) *
So, if your chummer is about to be arrested, do him a favor, and shoot him.


And to link threads, do it with a round that has a sustained Orgasm spell on it, so he gets transferred to the medical wing of an asylum.
CanRay
"Put him in the cell with the big white troll that thinks he's a small black elf."
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 28 2011, 06:07 PM) *
"Put him in the cell with the big white troll that thinks he's a small black elf."


"We got a message from our guy inside. We're springing Crash and Jack Michaelson tonight."
CanRay
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Mar 28 2011, 01:19 PM) *
"We got a message from our guy inside. We're springing Crash and Jack Michaelson tonight."

Wait, this Crash?

Edit: Better pic.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 28 2011, 01:05 PM) *
So, if your chummer is about to be arrested, do him a favor, and shoot him.


Naa. that's just assuming that they'll take him to the hospital before they book him.

I was saying if a chummer of yours was doing under a year in jail (( where they're less likely to have in house medical facilities)) if you can arrange for a need for him to be at the hospital, it's alot easier to sneak into a hospital and get past 2 to 4 guards than it is a secure jail.

Prisions usually have their own medical facilities (laughs* well what they say are). So you may need a different plan.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 28 2011, 07:24 PM) *
Wait, this Crash?


Yeah, he looks like a shadowrunner.
CanRay
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 01:26 PM) *
Naa. that's just assuming that they'll take him to the hospital before they book him.

I was saying if a chummer of yours was doing under a year in jail (( where they're less likely to have in house medical facilities)) if you can arrange for a need for him to be at the hospital, it's alot easier to sneak into a hospital and get past 2 to 4 guards than it is a secure jail.

Prisions usually have their own medical facilities (laughs* well what they say are). So you may need a different plan.

Better plan. As for prison "Medical Facilities"... *Shakes Head* No.

Currently working on a character that just finished a 20-year stretch (No chance of parole) in a Maximum Security Piston. The story starts with him getting out, after serving his full term. One of the things he did during his time inside was getting a Nurses Certification, and he worked in the clinic.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 05:59 PM) *
Yeah. I meant more, with them linked to the private police forces. I.E. the Private police arrest you and you end up in a prison also run by them. I.E. their best interest for conviction.


The SR2 Lone Star sourcebook had some nice bits on their involvement in the penal system. They run a lot of prisons (including Clockwork Orange style brainwashing facilities according to some rumors) and also handle the parole and probation system in many communities.
Depending on how dystopian you want your game to be, anything besides the courts and federal police agencies could be handled by the same corporation.

If you want to make it easier for the players, you go the opposite way and have several private contractors and corpsec teams (who may hardly exchange data with each other) across the sprawl, with a few virtually lawless zones thrown in for good measure.
This way, you get a completely balkanized community where you can avoid the law for a while just by escaping to a different part of town.
Still pretty bleak and dystopian, but with a completely different feel and different effects on the gameplay.
Nath
QUOTE (eyeBliss @ Mar 28 2011, 07:32 PM) *
There are already 260+ private prisons operating in the US.
Governor Schwarzenegger even proposed opening some more outside the US.
Fortinbras
Private Prisons aren't doing so well down in these parts.
CanRay
QUOTE (Fortinbras @ Mar 29 2011, 01:48 PM) *
Private Prisons aren't doing so well down in these parts.

Just like hotels, it comes down to filled beds. The economy tanking and high fuel prices is hitting those too. Less traveling businessmen and truck drivers means less filled beds.
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