Dumpshock Forums > Ward Questions for 3rd Edition

ntwi

Apr 5 2011, 04:38 AM

I've recently started GMing a face to face game and playing a shaman in a PbP game and a few questions regarding wards have come up.

1. A mundane character with a spell sustained on them walks into a warded area.

The spell drops, but is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

2.A. A mundane guard has the spirit power of "Confusion" used upon him. He then wanders into the warded area.

The spell drops, is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

2.B. A watcher spirit has the spirit power of "Confusion" used on it. He then wanders into the ward.

Does it just sort of bump into the ward? If it was previously synchronized with the ward does it go through the ward and the power drop? Is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

3. Karl the Kombatmage notices a ward encompassing the building in front of him. He drops his sustained spells and walks through the ward. He then recasts "Improved Invisibility" on the inside of the ward.

Is the creator of the ward aware of this? Are they aware of the astral area surrounded by the ward or only the ward line itself?

4. Karl is a high level initiate with Masking. He can sleaze himself past the ward according to MitS pg 88. Can he synchronize the auras of active spells he cast on himself to get past a ward? Can he synchronize the aura of a spell he cast on someone else to get it through the ward?

For example, he can get through the ward alone with no problem, can he get through the ward while sustaining "physical mask" on himself? Can he cast "physical mask" on his mundane buddy and have him walk through the ward without losing the spell?

Glyph

Apr 5 2011, 05:53 AM

QUOTE (ntwi @ Apr 4 2011, 09:38 PM)

I've recently started GMing a face to face game and playing a shaman in a PbP game and a few questions regarding wards have come up.

1. A mundane character with a spell sustained on them walks into a warded area.

The spell drops, but is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

2.A. A mundane guard has the spirit power of "Confusion" used upon him. He then wanders into the warded area.

The spell drops, is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

2.B. A watcher spirit has the spirit power of "Confusion" used on it. He then wanders into the ward.

Does it just sort of bump into the ward? If it was previously synchronized with the ward does it go through the ward and the power drop? Is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

All of the above would be treated as attempts to "break through" the barrier, so the creator would be instantly aware of them, except for the watcher spirit, which would simply be kept out. Even if the watcher spirit was synchronized to the ward, the spirit power of confusion would keep it out (since a watcher spirit cannot force its way through an astral barrier). This is assuming you use the optional (but logical) rule of treating some sustained critter powers the same as spells.

QUOTE

3. Karl the Kombatmage notices a ward encompassing the building in front of him. He drops his sustained spells and walks through the ward. He then recasts "Improved Invisibility" on the inside of the ward.

Is the creator of the ward aware of this? Are they aware of the astral area surrounded by the ward or only the ward line itself?

The creator of the ward would be unaware of this, since no one is either attacking or attempting to break through the ward.

QUOTE

4. Karl is a high level initiate with Masking. He can sleaze himself past the ward according to MitS pg 88. Can he synchronize the auras of active spells he cast on himself to get past a ward? Can he synchronize the aura of a spell he cast on someone else to get it through the ward?

For example, he can get through the ward alone with no problem, can he get through the ward while sustaining "physical mask" on himself? Can he cast "physical mask" on his mundane buddy and have him walk through the ward without losing the spell?

SR3 quantified this; SR4 doesn't, so I assume if you synchronize to a ward, you can bring any foci or sustained spells along with you, since you are as unaffected by the ward as its creator is.

ntwi

Apr 6 2011, 05:58 AM

Thanks, that gives me and the other GM some places to start. I just wish there was a way to search using the SR3 tag, as the search engine always tends to hit the 1,000 mark right around the SR4 conversion.

Glyph

Apr 7 2011, 02:57 AM

Ah crap, didn't see the "3rd Edition". Sorry, I gave you a bunch of 4th Edition answers.

ntwi

Apr 7 2011, 05:47 AM

Oh well, thanks for answering anyways. Looks like the other GM and I will have to come up with something and run with it.

Kagetenshi

Apr 7 2011, 01:54 PM

QUOTE (ntwi @ Apr 5 2011, 12:38 AM)

1. A mundane character with a spell sustained on them walks into a warded area.

The spell drops, but is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

The creator automatically knows if the ward is attacked in astral combat, including pressing through barriers.

Note that MitS p83 implies that astral barriers can exert some level of force on physical objects; the example explicitly invokes a sprinting character to provide conditions sufficient to cause pressing-through. The canon interpretation is probably that, at walking speed and not impelled by a vehicle or something similar, the mundane character bumps into the ward.

QUOTE

2.A. A mundane guard has the spirit power of "Confusion" used upon him. He then wanders into the warded area.

The spell drops, is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

The spell does not drop, there's no spell. Wards clearly affect critter powers when targeting, but it's not clear how sustained powers and astral barriers interact. Presumably the answer is either that the power is unaffected and the creator is not alerted, or that it's resolved the same as for a sustained spell.

QUOTE

2.B. A watcher spirit has the spirit power of "Confusion" used on it. He then wanders into the ward.

Does it just sort of bump into the ward? If it was previously synchronized with the ward does it go through the ward and the power drop? Is the creator of the ward aware that something happened?

If the Watcher is not synchronized, it doesn't have a physical component causing it to press through the ward, and it isn't making an attack against the ward, so the reasonable conclusion is that it just bumps into the ward. It's not clear what happens when the watcher spirit is synchronized, but given the momentum requirements for pressing through I'd say it either doesn't happen in this case (watcher still bounces off) or that it only happens if the Watcher was traveling at Astral Fast Movement.

QUOTE

3. Karl the Kombatmage notices a ward encompassing the building in front of him. He drops his sustained spells and walks through the ward. He then recasts "Improved Invisibility" on the inside of the ward.

Is the creator of the ward aware of this? Are they aware of the astral area surrounded by the ward or only the ward line itself?

Nope. Wards are surfaces, not volumes.

QUOTE

4. Karl is a high level initiate with Masking. He can sleaze himself past the ward according to MitS pg 88. Can he synchronize the auras of active spells he cast on himself to get past a ward? Can he synchronize the aura of a spell he cast on someone else to get it through the ward?

For example, he can get through the ward alone with no problem, can he get through the ward while sustaining "physical mask" on himself? Can he cast "physical mask" on his mundane buddy and have him walk through the ward without losing the spell?

Per MitS p76, Karl can synchronize the auras of active spells or foci with total Force equal to his Initiate Grade plus successes on a Deliberate Masking attempt. This only applies to spells or foci on his person, so the someone else is out of luck.

~J

ntwi

Apr 7 2011, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 7 2011, 05:54 AM)

The creator automatically knows if the ward is attacked in astral combat, including pressing through barriers.

Note that MitS p83 implies that astral barriers can exert some level of force on physical objects; the example explicitly invokes a sprinting character to provide conditions sufficient to cause pressing-through. The canon interpretation is probably that, at walking speed and not impelled by a vehicle or something similar, the mundane character bumps into the ward.

The spell does not drop, there's no spell. Wards clearly affect critter powers when targeting, but it's not clear how sustained powers and astral barriers interact. Presumably the answer is either that the power is unaffected and the creator is not alerted, or that it's resolved the same as for a sustained spell.

Earlier on pg 83 it explicitly references mundane characters and sustained spells and spirit powers. The "Pressing through a Barrier" section was dealing with dual natured creatures and items (such as foci). Because of the phrase "the character or item passes through, but the spell or power is stopped by the barrier and ceases to function." The bigger question here to me is whether a the spell being wiped off by the ward is enough for it to be considered "An attack on the ward" or whatever the minimal level for notifying the creator of the ward is.

QUOTE

If the Watcher is not synchronized, it doesn't have a physical component causing it to press through the ward, and it isn't making an attack against the ward, so the reasonable conclusion is that it just bumps into the ward. It's not clear what happens when the watcher spirit is synchronized, but given the momentum requirements for pressing through I'd say it either doesn't happen in this case (watcher still bounces off) or that it only happens if the Watcher was traveling at Astral Fast Movement.

I hadn't been sure if the same rules for mundane characters or items might apply here as well. (i.e. the spell gets wiped off)

QUOTE

Nope. Wards are surfaces, not volumes.

This was my thought to.

QUOTE

Per MitS p76, Karl can synchronize the auras of active spells or foci with total Force equal to his Initiate Grade plus successes on a Deliberate Masking attempt. This only applies to spells or foci on his person, so the someone else is out of luck.

At first I wasn't sure that I agreed with this, but it does make sense. The mage can "synchronize" the same number of auras that he can "camouflage". It's still the test on pg 88 to synchronize auras with the ward though.

Kagetenshi

Apr 7 2011, 10:43 PM

QUOTE (ntwi @ Apr 7 2011, 01:43 PM)

Earlier on pg 83 it explicitly references mundane characters and sustained spells and spirit powers. The "Pressing through a Barrier" section was dealing with dual natured creatures and items (such as foci).

Well, what do you know, I've apparently gone blind. I could have sworn I'd seen a TN mod for using critter powers through wards, but I apparently imagined that.

QUOTE

Because of the phrase "the character or item passes through, but the spell or power is stopped by the barrier and ceases to function." The bigger question here to me is whether a the spell being wiped off by the ward is enough for it to be considered "An attack on the ward" or whatever the minimal level for notifying the creator of the ward is.

It's a little weird because of the "comes into conflict" phrasing in the previous section, but my reading of the mundane characters/items section is that it doesn't alert the creator, since the spell or power is simply "stopped by the barrier and ceases to function".

QUOTE

I hadn't been sure if the same rules for mundane characters or items might apply here as well. (i.e. the spell gets wiped off)

Hard to say; it's very curious that the rules specify "mundane" here. What happens when a mage with a spell on him or her that was cast and sustained by someone else walks through a ward? I wonder where they hid the SR3 FAQ/errata…

QUOTE

At first I wasn't sure that I agreed with this, but it does make sense. The mage can "synchronize" the same number of auras that he can "camouflage". It's still the test on pg 88 to synchronize auras with the ward though.

Huh, what do you know, I'm just being sloppy all over today. You're right, the synchronizing test is in fact not explicitly tied back to the normal active masking process, and thus an interpretation that the mage can't sleaze through any other astral form is admissible.

Guess that's a few more things for the SR3R list of to-dos.

~J

Bastard

Apr 10 2011, 06:39 AM

Thanks ntwi for posting this.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Nope. Wards are surfaces, not volumes.

Is this a core rulebook rule I missed? I've done this backwards for 20 years (unless that was a rule change from 1e to 2e to 3e

)!

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Apr 10 2011, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Bastard @ Apr 9 2011, 11:39 PM)

Is this a core rulebook rule I missed? I've done this backwards for 20 years (unless that was a rule change from 1e to 2e to 3e

)!

They have always been surfaces...

Kagetenshi

Apr 10 2011, 05:23 PM

To be fair, they are measured by their enclosed volumes. I may have to do some historical ward-research.

~J

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Apr 10 2011, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 10 2011, 11:23 AM)

To be fair, they are measured by their enclosed volumes. I may have to do some historical ward-research.

~J

Well, yes, to be fair. Of course, nothing stops you from using Larger Volume Areas, you just have to plan for such things with multiple wards.

Kyoto Kid

Apr 10 2011, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 10 2011, 10:23 AM)

To be fair, they are measured by their enclosed volumes. I may have to do some historical ward-research.

~J

...they are definitely surfaces since a targeted ritual casting can still affect a character who is inside a ward. It makes the linking more difficult (adding the ward's force rating to the TN, MitS p. 37) but doesn't block the attempt.

Kagetenshi

Apr 11 2011, 02:10 PM

Certainly I think it's clear that they're surfaces, but I'm not sure how being able to target them for ritual casting demonstrates that.

~J

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Apr 11 2011, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 11 2011, 07:10 AM)

Certainly I think it's clear that they're surfaces, but I'm not sure how being able to target them for ritual casting demonstrates that.

~J

Well, the spell MUST pass through the surface of the Ward, so it makes it harder to target them, as the ward protects whomever is inside of the ward.